I'm quitting a decade oxy habit for chronic pain. Is it possible to occasionally use?

[Crack'r]

I was taking 400-600 mg of oxy a day for last few years of ten years of using oxy for chronic pain. I tapered down and finally got to 3x 4 mg dilaudid a day. Took my last one 7.5 days ago, that is until about an hour ago. I woke up with pain and it has been constant all day to the point I had to do something.

I don't consider myself really addicted to them as I used for pain relief and it's been many years since I've had a buzz though I had a hell of a tolerance and my body definitely needed it to function. But I got fed up with what it was doing to me and the way it made me act.

So, will one pill mess me up much in my quest to get clean? Would taking one, once or twice a week prevent my mind from healing and make PAWS last longer? Or could I get by with a small amount occasionally for pain? Would something else like 50 mg tramadol be better than 4 mg dilaudid, assuming it helps with pain (it hasn't in past but crazy tolerance)?

I'm hoping as time goes by I can find ways to cope with it without the need for opiates. Just curious if I'm really messing myself up if I have a bad day and limit myself to one? That probably can't be accurately answered but I would still like to hear opinions!

Thanks!

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Do you have a medical issue that you're on pain management for? And, if so, why do you want to stop opiates (if they still help you)?

 

[morphine-dreams]

Mentally, it's hard to say. I also self medicated with opiates and found that once I fixed or at least improved the underlying issue, the psychological addiction became a non factor (currently have a stash for when I'm in severe pain, zero temptation to use) BUT my pain is only intermittent, so that helps a ton. I didn't get addicted because of physical pain anyway, that's just what kept it going. I did need a month long break though for the WD/PAWS to really subside. Every single time I've used after a week I ended up relapsing, but the underlying psychological issues were still very much there. As for the physical symptoms of WD, I personally found that using even a small dose after a week sent me straight back to acute WD, milder, but still. I also only used opiates for 6 months prior to that, and used a variety of opiates plus I had a few breaks. So given my experiences, I'd say it's still too early. I found that I was able to use after PAWS subsided, which was about a month for me. I'd strongly advise that you look for alternative methods to manage the pain unless it gets so severe that you just can't stand it, in which case you might need to work out a (hopefully different) PM regimen. As for getting a buzz, I know it's almost cliche at this point but smoke some weed. Maybe have a drink if you know that alcohol isn't a problem for you, but be careful because you don't want a replacement addiction. I got really into psychedelics after kicking opiates, I started because I needed something to replace the opiate high (not at all similar, I know, but tripping still isn't sober so it seemed good to me) and it ended up really clearing my mind and helping me with my addiction issues as well. Hang in there, I think most addicts will agree that the 1 or 2 week mark is the hardest (definitely true for me!) but you CAN overcome it. After some time, you'll find out if you can still occasionally use. I can, but I always let someone close to me who won't judge but also won't enable, which in my case is my BF. I do trust myself now, but accountability still helps VERY much. If BF thought I overdid it or if I was hesitant to tell him, that's when it's time to reconsider my use. I do this more for adderall and benzos now though, which I use regularly. Everyone is different, but it's been four months since I detoxed and I hardly even think about opiates anymore. I associate them with the misery of being an addict instead of pleasure these days, and that's enough to turn me off unless I'm in severe pain and need them. There's hope, but use plenty of caution! It's much easier to relapse while still in PAWS, like it's easier to go back to an ex right after a break up. Wait until you're over them, so to speak.

Also, it's MUCH easier to become physically dependent after you've been addicted once. I personally still don't dare to redose more than twice. If you REALLY need an opiate, maybe try kratom instead. At least then you can't get too high without puking and feeling like crap. There are plenty of other pain meds out, if Tramadol helps, Aleve might be strong enough too (I say this only because I personally find Aleve to be the best OTC pain reliever out there, it's about as good as hydrocodone for me if not better). Hang in there, you've already got through one of the hardest and scariest steps.

 

[Crack'r]

Yes, I have a couple crazy and really rare blood diseases.

I want to stop because the pain has gotten a bit better in last couple years and normally doesn't last all day like today. But I was taking 400-600 mg of oxycodone a day, plugged, which felt at least twice if not three times stronger than taken orally. So an oral equivalent is actually much higher. I have always had a high tolerance for meds and need more than average and my tolerance increased faster than my Dr willingness to increase meds, though he did multiple times over the years. So I found a way to make the pills work better and give me pain relief. I now know I screwed myself because I made my tolerance skyrocket.

I don't like what the pills do to me. They were barely helping with pain and my body needed them to function. So I woke up to start taking pills even if pain wasn't that bad. They also made me lazy and unmotivated and gave me a short temper where I would snap at loved ones. And none of that is me. I need to stop for me and what they were doing to me before I lost my family. I've already lost most of my friends and I know I was miserable to live with which want fair to my wife or to me. I also have an 18 month old daughter and I want to be the best dad I can be and raise her right and not like most kids today. I know I'm her dad and supposed to say these things but I'm brutally honest and wouldn't if they weren't true. She is already beautiful and very intelligent. The things she does amazes me and requires fore thought and thinking about the next step or what might happen next.

I was a smart kid and tested quite high on a few different types of IQ tests before I killed a bunch of brain cells numbing myself with alcohol. Though I think high dose chemo probably killed more than all the damage I had done. They don't tell you about "chemo brain" until after you get it. Anyways, I know what it's like to get bored when you aren't challenged as a kid and you can get into trouble pretty quick. They actually say intelligent people are more prone to substance abuse because sometimes you just need a break from thinking.

Anyways, I'm disabled and a stay at home dad so I want to do things to challenge and teach her and give her hobbies that will be useful. I don't want to get into politics but we are headed down a dark road as a country and I want to teach her as much as possible so she can take care of herself. I'm even thinking about getting rid of TV and internet when she is older. When I grew up I was never inside watching TV or playing video games but outside doing stuff and using my imagination. I just want her to have the skills so that she doesn't have to rely on others and can pursue whatever she desires.

Anyways, I'm really rambling. But basically I want to be free of pills and try to get some of my life back.

Thanks.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

In which case, no - no it is not possible to occasionally use. I see the fucking poppy seeds every time I go to the supermarket. I know there's an endless supply of glorious dihydrocodeine available from the chemist's desk. But I have to say no, for now and forever more. Once is too many times. I've got to the stage now where using once will result in a sucky withdrawal. It sucks. And blows.

 

[morphine-dreams]

^I would consider myself an "early stage opiate addict", or at least I was, and I'm already at the point that one or two redoses will send me into WD. Maybe not full blown but it's bad enough, haven't had two consecutive doses in months though.

Anyway, I agree with Muzda, I may have broken my psychological dependence but if I used opiates more frequently than I do, physical dependence would be a serious concern, let alone general addiction. That's why I save my stash for severe pain only, and that's usually 2-3x a month thank god. Have you tried/had any success with alternative pain management methods? I don't think opiates are the way to go in your case at all. I also find that once I build a tolerance/use daily, they stop being that effective for pain management. You can actually have a paradoxical or rebound effect, don't remember why but it's happened to me and it was excruciating.

Sorry you're going through all of that. Opiates give me many of the same side effects, especially the irritability. Sometimes it was almost like I would get dysphoria instead of euphoria. By the way, I strongly agree or can relate to a lot of the non-opiate things you mentioned in your last post, especially the boredom. I was pretty sick when I was using opiates, plus I have severe ADHD so that childhood boredom never went away for me. I go insane when I can't leave the house or my bed, that's probably how I became a bit of an internet addict. I started writing and drawing a lot, not with a purpose or anything, just whatever was on my mind. That and music were pretty much my saviors. You sound like a good father, one thing I would've told mine was that I don't need to go anywhere or "do" anything, just spending time together means a lot. My dad was never sick though, just lazy. Talk to her, even if she can't understand what you're saying yet, the attention will show her that you care about her even if you're not always capable of certain things. Same goes for your wife. I can tell you that as someone's daughter and someone's girlfriend, quality time is the most important thing. I sometimes get PTSD flashbacks and I know it's very hard for my boyfriend to watch, but as long as I communicate, things are great. And I agree with your views on kids, I consider myself very lucky to be part of the last generation to have grown up not totally submerged in technology. I also had little money, so even when it came around it was a while before I had much to do with it, and I'm so thankful for that. I may be somewhat of an Internet addict now (and I'm not happy about it) but at least I spent pretty much my entire childhood outdoors, even when I lived in the city. The skills and values that you want her to have are exactly the ones I consider to be my best traits (imagination and creativity, I'm a musician and artist) and out of all my traits, they definitely bring me the most joy. Like I said earlier, my way of solving that restless boredom is through writing, drawing, and listening to music. I've been through some shit, but I've never really been a danger to myself other than being very reckless, and I credit those things for keeping my grounded and (somewhat) sane. It's admirable that you want to instill those traits in your daughter, my own dad has many flaws, but I'm forever grateful that he taught me to be creative and an individual rather than conforming to today's society. I'm always wishing that more parents were like this, so good on you. She won't miss the tv or computer until she starts watching/using them anyway, but when she does, it'll be much easier since she doesn't have technology instilled in her. My grandmother did the same thing but with food, and while I've had a terrible diet at times, it's always easy for me to revert back to a healthy diet since that's what I'm used to anyway. Staying in shape has never been an issue for me, and I don't have any of the diet related diseases that run in my family and have killed many relatives early on (diabetes and heart disease). People used to criticize her for it, but I'm forever grateful.

I hope you/your doctors find a solution that keeps you comfortable, chronic pain is hell on earth but I also think that non opioid pain killers can be as good if not better, I don't know your severity of pain but I've been able to manage mine with NSAIDS (which I'm trying to limit due to potential stomach issues) and kratom (technically an opiate but also stimulating, it doesn't really have the same effect that pills do, plus it's mild while still being an effective pain killer). I don't know how you feel about illegal/recreational drugs, and I don't exactly want to recommend this, but if my pain is so severe I can't stand it, I sometimes turn to dissociatives. But I can't stress enough that I only do that when the alternative is a 911 call, dissociatives are bad for your body and even worse for your brain when used regularly. I try to avoid opiates not only because I was an addict but also because constipation often just worsens my pain, so if I ever find a really good non-narcotic pain killer that can be used frequently, I'll pm you. I don't know your specific condition but if it involves your muscles at all (mine does even though they're not the cause) a muscle relaxant can be extremely helpful. I've also had nortryptiline rx'd because it's supposed to help with pain, especially nerve pain. Did nothing for me but hey, it's an option. I wish I had more rx experience but doctors rarely take me seriously due to my age or just tell me to take more NSAIDs, so most of what I do use is illegal. Depending on your condition, even certain dietary changes might help. I'm not a doctor so I don't know, but I can say they've made a difference for me. Any exercise is great too, even if it's in bed. Getting the endorphins flowing always helps. I used to just use an exercise band and lay in bed (using the same method I used in physical therapy) and it always helped a little bit, not for a very long time but it was something. I don't know how people with true chronic pain (not like me where it's just 20% of the time max) and kids can do it, I can't really imagine having either, you're a lot stronger than you think. A lot stronger than me, and I like to think I've been pretty strong. Hang in there.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

^I would consider myself an "early stage opiate addict", or at least I was, and I'm already at the point that one or two redoses will send me into WD. Maybe not full blown but it's bad enough, haven't had two consecutive doses in months though.

Anyway, I agree with Muzda, I may have broken my psychological dependence but if I used opiates more frequently than I do, physical dependence would be a serious concern, let alone general addiction. That's why I save my stash for severe pain only, and that's usually 2-3x a month thank god. Have you tried/had any success with alternative pain management methods? I don't think opiates are the way to go in your case at all. I also find that once I build a tolerance/use daily, they stop being that effective for pain management. You can actually have a paradoxical or rebound effect, don't remember why but it's happened to me and it was excruciating.

Sorry you're going through all of that. Opiates give me many of the same side effects, especially the irritability. Sometimes it was almost like I would get dysphoria instead of euphoria. By the way, I strongly agree or can relate to a lot of the non-opiate things you mentioned in your last post, especially the boredom. I was pretty sick when I was using opiates, plus I have severe ADHD so that childhood boredom never went away for me. I go insane when I can't leave the house or my bed, that's probably how I became a bit of an internet addict. I started writing and drawing a lot, not with a purpose or anything, just whatever was on my mind. That and music were pretty much my saviors. You sound like a good father, one thing I would've told mine was that I don't need to go anywhere or "do" anything, just spending time together means a lot. My dad was never sick though, just lazy. Talk to her, even if she can't understand what you're saying yet, the attention will show her that you care about her even if you're not always capable of certain things. Same goes for your wife. I can tell you that as someone's daughter and someone's girlfriend, quality time is the most important thing. I sometimes get PTSD flashbacks and I know it's very hard for my boyfriend to watch, but as long as I communicate, things are great. And I agree with your views on kids, I consider myself very lucky to be part of the last generation to have grown up not totally submerged in technology. I also had little money, so even when it came around it was a while before I had much to do with it, and I'm so thankful for that. I may be somewhat of an Internet addict now (and I'm not happy about it) but at least I spent pretty much my entire childhood outdoors, even when I lived in the city. The skills and values that you want her to have are exactly the ones I consider to be my best traits (imagination and creativity, I'm a musician and artist) and out of all my traits, they definitely bring me the most joy. Like I said earlier, my way of solving that restless boredom is through writing, drawing, and listening to music. I've been through some shit, but I've never really been a danger to myself other than being very reckless, and I credit those things for keeping my grounded and (somewhat) sane. It's admirable that you want to instill those traits in your daughter, my own dad has many flaws, but I'm forever grateful that he taught me to be creative and an individual rather than conforming to today's society. I'm always wishing that more parents were like this, so good on you. She won't miss the tv or computer until she starts watching/using them anyway, but when she does, it'll be much easier since she doesn't have technology instilled in her. My grandmother did the same thing but with food, and while I've had a terrible diet at times, it's always easy for me to revert back to a healthy diet since that's what I'm used to anyway. Staying in shape has never been an issue for me, and I don't have any of the diet related diseases that run in my family and have killed many relatives early on (diabetes and heart disease). People used to criticize her for it, but I'm forever grateful.

I hope you/your doctors find a solution that keeps you comfortable, chronic pain is hell on earth but I also think that non opioid pain killers can be as good if not better, I don't know your severity of pain but I've been able to manage mine with NSAIDS (which I'm trying to limit due to potential stomach issues) and kratom (technically an opiate but also stimulating, it doesn't really have the same effect that pills do, plus it's mild while still being an effective pain killer). I don't know how you feel about illegal/recreational drugs, and I don't exactly want to recommend this, but if my pain is so severe I can't stand it, I sometimes turn to dissociatives. But I can't stress enough that I only do that when the alternative is a 911 call, dissociatives are bad for your body and even worse for your brain when used regularly. I try to avoid opiates not only because I was an addict but also because constipation often just worsens my pain, so if I ever find a really good non-narcotic pain killer that can be used frequently, I'll pm you. I don't know your specific condition but if it involves your muscles at all (mine does even though they're not the cause) a muscle relaxant can be extremely helpful. I've also had nortryptiline rx'd because it's supposed to help with pain, especially nerve pain. Did nothing for me but hey, it's an option. I wish I had more rx experience but doctors rarely take me seriously due to my age or just tell me to take more NSAIDs, so most of what I do use is illegal. Depending on your condition, even certain dietary changes might help. I'm not a doctor so I don't know, but I can say they've made a difference for me. Any exercise is great too, even if it's in bed. Getting the endorphins flowing always helps. I used to just use an exercise band and lay in bed (using the same method I used in physical therapy) and it always helped a little bit, not for a very long time but it was something. I don't know how people with true chronic pain (not like me where it's just 20% of the time max) and kids can do it, I can't really imagine having either, you're a lot stronger than you think. A lot stronger than me, and I like to think I've been pretty strong. Hang in there.

Damn, I feel for you morphine-dream. I only got to worry about falling off the wagon due to the addiction itself, not because of actual physical mind bending pain.

It's a serious concern, as it goes. I've no idea what the doctors will do if I end up physically screwed for whatever a reason. I'm already a lost cause opiate wise, even a couple of days morphine would spin me right out. I don't even know that I'd want them administering it to me (who am I kidding, I'd love it). But then I'd have to deal with the fallout from that. It's a serious concern.

 

[Lobsterbutch]

I know that for me, if I use any opiate for a "one time use" because I think I "deserve a good day" things seem to inevitable turn into 2 days,4 days, 6 days, weeks, even months of constant use. Maybe not immediately, but if I use just once I generally end up using daily, broke, and worrying about the inevitable WD.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

I know that for me, if I use any opiate for a "one time use" because I think I "deserve a good day" things seem to inevitable turn into 2 days,4 days, 6 days, weeks, even months of constant use. Maybe not immediately, but if I use just once I generally end up using daily, broke, and worrying about the inevitable WD.

This. I'm suffering this evening, because mother O has decided that I 'deserve a good day'. I've been clean two weeks tomorrow, I'm jumping out my giving skin right now. But I will not crack again (hopefully). Nobody needs this in their life.

 

[Crack'r]

Thank you for the replies.

And thank you MD for the detailed and heart felt response! It sounds like we are around the same age. I guess we all had good and bad points during our childhood. But none of us are born with a manual on how to raise a kid. At least not guys, and we can only do the best we can and try to correct perceived wrongs in our childhood and instill respect, good manners, and habits. I've always liked kids and animals and I'm a big kid myself so talking, playing, and being silly with my daughter just seems natural and second nature.

I grew up more in the country and my dad is a good man but he was an engineer/mechanic which made him meticulous and a perfectionist, and then a career military officer which made him strict and probably even more meticulous and a perfectionist. And he didn't really show emotion. Not terrible but not perfect either. We also grew up poor though we never went hungry or anything. But it definitely teaches you to respect things that many take for granted and to improvise and use your imagination. I hated being inside and was usually found in a tree or playing in a sand pile. That was also when a kid could roam around and the biggest worry was they were going to hurt themselves. Now the threats to a kid are too long to list. But again, I don't want to get into politics.

I have tried many things for my pain. Probably at least a dozen prescriptions, OTC meds like NSAIDs, pot which I'm no longer a fan of, and I'm sure things I'm forgetting and opiates are the only thing that helped. Alcohol can help but my liver is stressed enough by my other meds (which I've stopped all for many weeks and didn't change anything). Sometimes I will drink a few to knock the edge off, I just have to make sure I stop because I can easily not stop and keep going. I guess alcohol is a dissociative in quantity? I would be curious what you are referring to? GHB or Ketamine? At least I think those are dissociatives?

Again, I'm rambling and not feeling real hot.

Thanks again!

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

Thank you for the replies.
I
And thank you MD for the detailed and heart felt response! It sounds like we are around the same age. I guess we all had good and bad points during our childhood. But none of us are born with a manual on how to raise a kid. At least not guys, and we can only do the best we can and try to correct perceived wrongs in our childhood and instill respect, good manners, and habits. I've always liked kids and animals and I'm a big kid myself so talking, playing, and being silly with my daughter just seems natural and second nature.

I grew up more in the country and my dad is a good man but he was an engineer/mechanic which made him meticulous and a perfectionist, and then a career military officer which made him strict and probably even more meticulous and a perfectionist. And he didn't really show emotion. Not terrible but not perfect either. We also grew up poor though we never went hungry or anything. But it definitely teaches you to respect things that many take for granted and to improvise and use your imagination. I hated being inside and was usually found in a tree or playing in a sand pile. That was also when a kid could roam around and the biggest worry was they were going to hurt themselves. Now the threats to a kid are too long to list. But again, I don't want to get into politics.

I have tried many things for my pain. Probably at least a dozen prescriptions, OTC meds like NSAIDs, pot which I'm no longer a fan of, and I'm sure things I'm forgetting and opiates are the only thing that helped. Alcohol can help but my liver is stressed enough by my other meds (which I've stopped all for many weeks and didn't change anything). Sometimes I will drink a few to knock the edge off, I just have to make sure I stop because I can easily not stop and keep going. I guess alcohol is a dissociative in quantity? I would be curious what you are referring to? GHB or Ketamine? At least I think those are dissociatives?

Again, I'm rambling and not feeling real hot.

Thanks again!

Alcohol is technically a depressant. Drugs like DXM, ket and others are dissociatives. They're much more hallucinogenic in nature. But whereas lsd etc expand your mind, dissociatives shrink it. Sometimes on them I've lost all concept of being a human. I call it the primordial state, you have no idea what anything is any more. I'll utter the odd word but not know what it means. Because of that and the fact it disconnects you entirely from your physical body, all you do is sit there, utter the odd word but have no idea whatsoever what it may mean. Like being born again, coming out of a k-hole. I love it! :D

 

[morphine-dreams]

Damn, I feel for you morphine-dream. I only got to worry about falling off the wagon due to the addiction itself, not because of actual physical mind bending pain.

It's a serious concern, as it goes. I've no idea what the doctors will do if I end up physically screwed for whatever a reason. I'm already a lost cause opiate wise, even a couple of days morphine would spin me right out. I don't even know that I'd want them administering it to me (who am I kidding, I'd love it). But then I'd have to deal with the fallout from that. It's a serious concern.

In a weird way, it kind of keeps me on the wagon, because even if I had a craving, I wouldn't dare dig into my pain stash, but luckily I haven't had to use much of it lately, it's been nearly a year since the last really severe attack too, so it's getting a little better. It helps a lot that I'm generally completely pain free between attacks too, and I've found that muscle relaxants really help, so it's actually been a while since I used an opiate besides codeine or kratom. I was under extreme stress when the pain was at its worst so I'm hoping it was just a fluke. Honestly though, if dissociatives weren't so bad for you and didn't fuck you up so much they would totally be my pain DOC, opiates are great and all but nothing beats an actual anesthetic. I would at least ask for Lyrica or something like that but 20+tattoos=fucking forget it. I can't even get t2's or tramadol, not that they'd do much. I literally got t3's from a crack dealer once, like, I went to him specifically for the t3's because I didn't want to use heroin for pain. Yet when I was 10, I broke my arm and got pumped full of so much morphine I couldn't walk or see straight, lmao. Last time I was at the ER my scans showed clear abnormalities so I obviously wasn't faking and they made a big deal about hooking me up to an iv, and then gave me iv freakin ibuprofen. It's shitty, but I deal. Usually by going to dr drug dealer instead. If nothing else, I can always get some edibles, which are actually pretty great. Thank fucking Christ for weed. But it's been a lot better lately, hopefully it stays that way.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

I'll keep everything crossed for you! What's t2/t3's..? I know my painkillers and haven't ever heard that..

 

[Cdkman]

^the t3s are the pills with Codeine and Tylenol..I'm guessing t2s are very similar

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

Gotcha, thanks. We call them co-codamol over here.

 

[morphine-dreams]

Yeah, the t3s have more codeine than the t2s. I forget how much, but they're both weak.