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The Argument For Suicide

But, what do you think of the idea that the causing grief in the people left behind actually transgresses their freedom too? If I kill myself, I cause suffering to others which they will likely carry until they die; is that an ethical burden to inflict on somebody?

I have never experienced the actions of someone else that caused me pain as a transgression of my freedom. I do and will carry the pain of my son's despair and the death it led to in him, until I die. It was actually one of the first things that I understood about it. I understood that it was now a part of me until there is no more 'me'. Over the past five years I have continued to learn just how unpredictable and demanding that process of carrying will be--but it has not impinged my freedom. Depth of love=scope of loss. The two are inextricable. I believe this and yet it does not change my view of his right to decide whether to live or die.

edit: it remains unknown whether Caleb's death was intentional or accidental or a bit of both. I do not want to give the impression that he died of a planned suicide because I do not know that and it will remain a mystery. I only know the depth of his despair.
 
So, I think the buddhist idea of non-attachment to suffering is more useful; it allows you to accept what you are experiencing and withhold value judgments if it and it lessens the intensity of suffering. For me, its more useful to be aware of the inevitable, and therefore almost impersonal, nature of suffering than to try and determine the lesson it is teaching or the way it will benefit me. On a purely subjective level, if I try and turn pain into something to learn from, I often end up agitated and anxious and angry. But if I focus on the fact that my latest worry will pass (and be replaced) and that worrying will not help me. And what I learn is that suffering will continue regardless but the intensity of my experiencing of it will diminish. You don't need to wait either, it works instantly, sometimes much better than others. :\

Sorry to be nitpicky, but I just have to parse this. Most people misunderstand what "suffering" in Buddhism means, based on decades of bad translations. It's more close to the English word "dissatisfaction". It's the state that arises when ultimately, anything we're doing no longer satiates us, where our desires push us to seek new things, over and over. When one thing gets tired, we get restless and move on to the next. What the Buddha attempted to do was address the root causes of this dissatisfactoriness, by looking at the underlying issues fueling it, such as: anger, desire, hatred.

As for suffering in the PAIN sense, Buddha addressed that too. Two people could be in pain and one is suffering and one isn't because one of them has a story about what's happening and the other is simply enduring pain. When you lose emotional control in the face of pain you begin to suffer. They teach intelligence officers this kind of training in case they get tortured. Of course, we all have our threshold for pain before it turns to terror and panic. Point is, they're separate things.

You can do anything you want in this life, include analyze your own suffering, as long as you are not attached or too fixated on that process. That's the point that Buddhism raises. Nothing we do is inherently "wrong" it's when we have expectations and anticipations that we experience downfall. If you get too hung up on what your suffering means, you're no longer allowing things to arise and dissolve, you're grasping... and grasping leads to resistance. On the other hand, Buddhism encourages us to purify our suffering by understanding its roots, which may or may not include looking at the choices you've made to create your own suffering. In Buddhism, all suffering is self-created. You either did it in this life (cause and effect) or it's karma from past lives ripening. Either way, it must be processed and released.

The Buddha said that even enlightened beings suffer. Nobody is free from it. The key is to sink into its temporary nature, kind of like taking a rest in the middle of a storm. On a more personal level, if you don't understand the choices you've made and how they've led you to current predicaments, then you may be doomed to repeat them. It's not about self-judgment but extracting useful lessons.

From a Buddhist perspective, suicide may be an act of purification or past karma ripening; or, it may be new karma being created through an act of self-violence. Depends on the context of the suicide. That famous photo of a Buddhist monk setting themselves on fire in protest and compassion for war victims might have a different karmic context than someone killing themselves because they hate themselves and their lives.
 
The trouble I have with religious perspectives is that they are someone else's perspective rather than our own.
 
Yeah but religion has a point. If there is a God then you keep all your baggage when you die. Especially for mental troubles.
 
Well isn't that what someone would say to someone who drew the line at pain or sadness? You're being speculative and have zero evidence that whatever it is won't get better? I believe in suicide but I can't grasp why, is all. Besides if I use an example it's best to start with the physical world. For instance if I drop this cup it may lose its cupness but ultimately can be reverted back to it's previous state. So is the same for the belief in the afterlife that somehow you can be reverted to a preferred state, even if that state is nothingness.
 
How is that a point? It's completely speculative with no evidence. WTF.

It's up to you if you want to take a chance or not, free will and all. Keeping in mind that the modern standard of evidence is relatively new, as in the last 200-300 years. There are thousands of years of human texts spanning the globe talking about various insights. It's up to you to sift through what is real and what isn't, with discernment.

I don't get why people want hard evidence when there are so many traditions out there that have well established systems which can lead one to inner truth. It's like, people are refusing to take the first step because it won't be handed to them on a silver platter.

Meanwhile, if you can get past the initial premise and give other things a chance, there is a wealth of wisdom to be unlocked. *shrug* In other words why limit yourself with hard beliefs?
 
What chances have you been taking thus far? Medications, philosophic systems, exercises, hobbies?
 
The chance I'm talking about is the one not to believe in the religions or let them run my life.

But if there is a philosophy that suits me it's the one espoused by Schopenhauer. The rest everyone does right? At least at one time. Not many people sit there doing nothing.
 
The chance I'm talking about is the one not to believe in the religions or let them run my life.

But if there is a philosophy that suits me it's the one espoused by Schopenhauer. The rest everyone does right? At least at one time. Not many people sit there doing nothing.

I just read a little about his denial of the Will. Wouldn't suicide be apart of the Will in which needs denying?
 
No just the opposite. The will is the will to exist and continue against all odds. You can see it here in spades in forums like the Dark Side. People in huge suffering who are suicidal but cannot bring themselves to commit to the act. I'm among them and if I ever accomplish the act of suicide I will have overcome "will".
 
Well, the Will in philosophy is:
"The Will, generally, is that faculty of the mind which selects, at the moment of decision, the strongest desire from among the various desires present. Will does not refer to any particular desire, but rather to the capacity to act decisively on one's desires."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(philosophy)

Selecting the strongest desire among other desires? Can you rationalize suicide? Which is the point of this thread. You have to describe why it's the best desire among other stronger desires. In other words why wouldn't you deny this impulse?
 
^ One could say that suicide isn't wanting to die, it's wanting more life but not having the resources, agency, or imagination to see how it can be possible.
 
Well, the Will in philosophy is:
"The Will, generally, is that faculty of the mind which selects, at the moment of decision, the strongest desire from among the various desires present. Will does not refer to any particular desire, but rather to the capacity to act decisively on one's desires."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(philosophy)

Selecting the strongest desire among other desires? Can you rationalize suicide? Which is the point of this thread. You have to describe why it's the best desire among other stronger desires. In other words why wouldn't you deny this impulse?

We are speaking of Schopenhauer's meaning of "will". Far different than the common use.
 
Ah.

strife, we ought to minimize our natural desires for the sake of achieving a more tranquil frame of mind and a disposition towards universal beneficence. Often considered to be a thoroughgoing pessimist, Schopenhauer in fact advocated ways — via artistic, moral and ascetic forms of awareness — to overcome a frustration-filled and fundamentally painful human condition.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/schopenhauer/
 
^ One could say that suicide isn't wanting to die, it's wanting more life but not having the resources, agency, or imagination to see how it can be possible.

I think there is some truth here. I have no desire to die now that I live only in that I see how meager life is for one who sees the world with my eyes and my understanding of possibility and my ability. I'm just one way this desire for death might manifest. I very much am in agreement with Schopenhauer who by the way was the inspiration for not only Freud but Nietzsche. Here, for anyone interested is a very wonderful introduction to Schopenhauer and this subject we are discussing also. I know it's over three hours but I suggest listening to about 10 minutes or so to see if you don't get hooked. I've listened to this several times and still find it worthwhile and comforting. Unlike many philosophers he's very easy for almost anyone to understand.
 
I think there is some truth here. I have no desire to die now that I live only in that I see how meager life is for one who sees the world with my eyes and my understanding of possibility and my ability. I'm just one way this desire for death might manifest. I very much am in agreement with Schopenhauer who by the way was the inspiration for not only Freud but Nietzsche. Here, for anyone interested is a very wonderful introduction to Schopenhauer and this subject we are discussing also. I know it's over three hours but I suggest listening to about 10 minutes or so to see if you don't get hooked. I've listened to this several times and still find it worthwhile and comforting. Unlike many philosophers he's very easy for almost anyone to understand.

I've read Schopenhauer before and his works don't resonate with what I know to be true, but I guess he picked a life of pessimism in order to deliver us his great works, so good for him. :)

Suicidality is just being extremely out of alignment, and in total resistance. What a lot of suicidal people don't realize in their moments of anguish is that they have the power to take steps toward re-alignment, even baby ones. There is a sort of stuckness to suicidality that prevents one from seeing the temporariness of their condition, and how it could be subject to change.

It's such a low energy state that it's easy to forget one's agency. I have a list on my fridge of all the things that might help me shift out of that head space, should I enter it. It's a list that I can rely upon 100% if I'm not coherent enough to think of those things for myself. I can trust in the list. One or two items on it are always guaranteed to help move me in a different direction. I've learned from experience that most of my really low lows are biochemical... like I need to eat good food, or get some sun, or exercise. If a life situation is driving the feeling, then finding a way to diffuse it is alleviating.

With suicide, any action is better than no action. To me, if life is so shitty it's worth dying over, then you might as well just break the whole configuration, maybe in a radical way even, and see if the pieces fall into a better place. I mean, you've got nothing to lose, right?
 
Suicidality is just being extremely out of alignment, and in total resistance

I love the way you make definitive statements as if you could know what it's like for other people.This is the same crap that people try to dump on the suicidal all the time. Maybe you just don't have the guts to admit that life can suck so much that it's not worth it. That seems just as likely to me. Death scares you. How would I know for sure?

Again I'm going to say there is no way I or anyone else can really know what the life experience of another is like, what they have tried or not or even if they care to try. It's a personal life choice like all the others we demand as free humans. Yet for some reason this one is supposed to be off the table. Seems like fear to me.
 
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