Misc Neurontin and Lyrica are a Death Sentence for New Brain Synapses

[tightlywound]

You don't think perhaps his doctors (and by extension the drug companies advising the doctors) are the ones with the responsibility to fully explain the potential risks to the patient first?

I'm not sure if you just say these things with the intention of offending people or not but you're doing a pretty good job......

gabapentin's side effects profile pretty clearly details emotional/mental side effects that could result in what the complaining poster described. they're not trying to hide that these are side effects. why would there be a lawsuit? if a patient experiences serious side effects that are known to be common then it's their own job and their doctor's job to make the decision to get off the medication ASAP and deal w/ the side effects as best as they can. it has nothing to do w/ Big Pharma/class action lawsuits, they're not hiding the side effects; they're well known and fairly common.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Here's the actual study:

"Gabapentin receptor alpha2delta-1 is a neuronal thrombospondin receptor responsible for excitatory CNS synaptogenesis."

Abstract

Synapses are asymmetric cellular adhesions that are critical for nervous system development and function, but the mechanisms that induce their formation are not well understood. We have previously identified thrombospondin as an astrocyte-secreted protein that promotes central nervous system (CNS) synaptogenesis. Here, we identify the neuronal thrombospondin receptor involved in CNS synapse formation as alpha2delta-1, the receptor for the anti-epileptic and analgesic drug gabapentin. We show that the VWF-A domain of alpha2delta-1 interacts with the epidermal growth factor-like repeats common to all thrombospondins. alpha2delta-1 overexpression increases synaptogenesis in vitro and in vivo and is required postsynaptically for thrombospondin- and astrocyte-induced synapse formation in vitro. Gabapentin antagonizes thrombospondin binding to alpha2delta-1 and powerfully inhibits excitatory synapse formation in vitro and in vivo. These findings identify alpha2delta-1 as a receptor involved in excitatory synapse formation and suggest that gabapentin may function therapeutically by blocking new synapse formation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19818485

The researchers in the above study try to downplay the serious nature of the drugs by saying “adult neurons don’t form many new synapses.”

Anyone have the full article to verify this bit?

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Here's the actual study:

"Gabapentin receptor alpha2delta-1 is a neuronal thrombospondin receptor responsible for excitatory CNS synaptogenesis."

Abstract

Synapses are asymmetric cellular adhesions that are critical for nervous system development and function, but the mechanisms that induce their formation are not well understood. We have previously identified thrombospondin as an astrocyte-secreted protein that promotes central nervous system (CNS) synaptogenesis. Here, we identify the neuronal thrombospondin receptor involved in CNS synapse formation as alpha2delta-1, the receptor for the anti-epileptic and analgesic drug gabapentin. We show that the VWF-A domain of alpha2delta-1 interacts with the epidermal growth factor-like repeats common to all thrombospondins. alpha2delta-1 overexpression increases synaptogenesis in vitro and in vivo and is required postsynaptically for thrombospondin- and astrocyte-induced synapse formation in vitro. Gabapentin antagonizes thrombospondin binding to alpha2delta-1 and powerfully inhibits excitatory synapse formation in vitro and in vivo. These findings identify alpha2delta-1 as a receptor involved in excitatory synapse formation and suggest that gabapentin may function therapeutically by blocking new synapse formation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19818485



Anyone have the full article to verify this bit?

It's open access. Click the small rectangle that says "Cell Press Open Access"

Also, I don't think they're downplaying anything. Scientific writing is supposed to objectively state findings and discuss the implications of the results. To say something like 'people shouldn't take this drug because it will make learning difficult' would be considered too subjective of a conclusion--especially with gabapentin's relatively safe history of use.

 

[BigG]

gabapentin's side effects profile pretty clearly details emotional/mental side effects that could result in what the complaining poster described. they're not trying to hide that these are side effects. why would there be a lawsuit? if a patient experiences serious side effects that are known to be common then it's their own job and their doctor's job to make the decision to get off the medication ASAP and deal w/ the side effects as best as they can. it has nothing to do w/ Big Pharma/class action lawsuits, they're not hiding the side effects; they're well known and fairly common.

Where did I mention a lawsuit?

My point was that his prescriber had some responsibility to outline possible side effects that he may be vulnerable to and the responsibility doesn't lie solely with the patient. If a doctor thinks they may be at particular risk of certain side effects then they should at least be made aware of them.

The original poster mentioned a lawsuit (in not sure if he was serious or not) not me

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

The researchers in the above study try to downplay the serious nature of the drugs by saying “adult neurons don’t form many new synapses.”

Anyone have the full article to verify this bit?

That's basic developmental neuroscience. While not entirely true, it is generally. It's called synaptic pruning, and it's adaptive, just as the fact that we're born with many more neurons at birth than when we reach adulthood. We can't be fully prepared for our environment when we're born. So we come into this world being able to differentiate ourselves. Synapses that don't conduce to be able to survive significantly better tend to get destroyed through GABAergic mechanisms. In light of this, gabapentin could help accelerate the recovery process.

It continues to astound me how easily people jump to conclusions when they hear things like neurogenesis and neuron death.

Here's a technical source that may offer insight: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989000/

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

That's basic developmental neuroscience. While not entirely true, it is generally. It's called synaptic pruning, and it's adaptive, just as the fact that we're born with many more neurons at birth than when we reach adulthood. We can't be fully prepared for our environment when we're born. So we come into this world being able to differentiate ourselves. Synapses that don't conduce to be able to survive significantly better tend to get destroyed through GABAergic mechanisms. In light of this, gabapentin could help accelerate the recovery process.

It continues to astound me how easily people jump to conclusions when they hear things like neurogenesis and neuron death.

Here's a technical source that may offer insight: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989000/

I agree. Serotonin2A basically said that if you can still read a book on Gabapentin and follow the plot etc. then you're still making new synapses.

 

[theGirlWithBlueHair]

No shit... Jesus you're annoying as fuck

And you're rude as fuck.

I thought he was implying the TIN was from the TIN in OxyContin since the previous poster mentioned oxycodone and was talking about that. That was my train of thought and I was just trying to provide some information so stop being an asshole

From their post they were not implying it came from tin in gabapentin so it is not annoying of me to point it out; I'm sure some readers find it interesting

 

[chase_in_56ace]

^Take it daily for two years or even one year. I can gobble a gram of the stuff (Lyrica) and not 'feel' the drug at all. I take as prescribed 300mgs morning and night which is considered the highest maximum recommended daily dosage (Scary in itself when you consider ow much folks take recreationally). But it does not help my pain and I'm tapering down these days. I seem to be able to halve my daily intake and not suffer any WD.

However, I know WD is there because there was a time when I skipped my doses and at the 48hr mark I started to fall apart having been on the drug 12months at the time. Sweats, weird headaches and general wobbly vision and walking became difficult. So I did the right thing and fled back to my car from the noisy brightly lit noisy supermarket and jumped behind the wheel and drove the short distance home - then took 150mgs and felt normal after about one hour.

If you are in chronic pain in Australia the first thing thy push is Lyrica - pfizer have done a great job marketing this drug, but if you don't take Lyrica you can forget about stronger pain killers like Oxycodone or Oxycontin - what they don't know is that 'Oxycontin' if bought as a Sandoz generic, crushes to a powder and voila - you have oxycodone, so we don't have to suffer those plastic pieces of oxycontin shit....back on topic....Yep if you are not on Lyrica, which they give out like candy especially to those patients in pain then you haven't tried hard enough and you will not get anything else so you have to be on both.

I must say I do wish Lyrica was a full agonist opiate because WD's are no where near as bad as with Oxycodone I don't think.

The TIN in Neurontin come from tin in gabapentin

And you're rude as fuck.

I thought he was implying the TIN was from the TIN in OxyContin since the previous poster mentioned oxycodone and was talking about that. That was my train of thought and I was just trying to provide some information so stop being an asshole

From their post they were not implying it came from tin in gabapentin so it is not annoying of me to point it out; I'm sure some readers find it interesting

My bad i didnt mean your statement... I mean in general you're a very annoying person. Its not just this thread its overall just you.

 

[BigG]

I mean in general you're a very annoying person. Its not just this thread its overall just you.

Its not just me who's getting rather tired of it then I see....

 

[kleinerkiffer]

My bad i didnt mean your statement... I mean in general you're a very annoying person. Its not just this thread its overall just you.

Alright, enough bashing, please get back on topic.
And btw, you can put people on ignore, go to their profile and click 'Add to Ignore List'

 

[theGirlWithBlueHair]

all I try to do is provide people with information...

 

[Tinker55]

SKR:

Take it daily for two years or even one year. I can gobble a gram of the stuff (Lyrica) and not 'feel' the drug at all. I take as prescribed 300mgs morning and night which is considered the highest maximum recommended daily dosage (Scary in itself when you consider ow much folks take recreationally). But it does not help my pain and I'm tapering down these days. I seem to be able to halve my daily intake and not suffer any WD.

This is one class of drugs that seems to have wildly differing effects in the patient populations. Neurotin has a huge lists of side effects and many reports of withdrawal at high doses. Other people it doesn't bother. Turned me into a weepy mess and I couldn't get off it fast enough. Lyrica at the lowest dose kills my radiculopathy with no WD. Go figure.

 

[theGirlWithBlueHair]

All anticonvulsant medications can cause physical dependency and withdrawal symptoms. So please be careful if taking for any length of time! Wean off as this could cause rebound seizures.

 

[Tinker55]

Thank you for the warning.

 

[chase_in_56ace]

^Take it daily for two years or even one year. I can gobble a gram of the stuff (Lyrica) and not 'feel' the drug at all. I take as prescribed 300mgs morning and night which is considered the highest maximum recommended daily dosage (Scary in itself when you consider ow much folks take recreationally). But it does not help my pain and I'm tapering down these days. I seem to be able to halve my daily intake and not suffer any WD.

However, I know WD is there because there was a time when I skipped my doses and at the 48hr mark I started to fall apart having been on the drug 12months at the time. Sweats, weird headaches and general wobbly vision and walking became difficult. So I did the right thing and fled back to my car from the noisy brightly lit noisy supermarket and jumped behind the wheel and drove the short distance home - then took 150mgs and felt normal after about one hour.

If you are in chronic pain in Australia the first thing thy push is Lyrica - pfizer have done a great job marketing this drug, but if you don't take Lyrica you can forget about stronger pain killers like Oxycodone or Oxycontin - what they don't know is that 'Oxycontin' if bought as a Sandoz generic, crushes to a powder and voila - you have oxycodone, so we don't have to suffer those plastic pieces of oxycontin shit....back on topic....Yep if you are not on Lyrica, which they give out like candy especially to those patients in pain then you haven't tried hard enough and you will not get anything else so you have to be on both.

I must say I do wish Lyrica was a full agonist opiate because WD's are no where near as bad as with Oxycodone I don't think.

The TIN in Neurontin come from tin in gabapentin

And you're rude as fuck.

I thought he was implying the TIN was from the TIN in OxyContin since the previous poster mentioned oxycodone and was talking about that. That was my train of thought and I was just trying to provide some information so stop being an asshole

From their post they were not implying it came from tin in gabapentin so it is not annoying of me to point it out; I'm sure some readers find it interesting

Alright, enough bashing, please get back on topic.
And btw, you can put people on ignore, go to their profile and click 'Add to Ignore List'

np KK my bad about that. I cant add her to my ignore list i dont see that option is it possibly because im in mobile view?

 

[kleinerkiffer]

np KK my bad about that. I cant add her to my ignore list i dont see that option is it possibly because im in mobile view?

Maybe. Click on her name, then click 'View profile', at her profile the 'Add to Ignore List' is on the left hand side under 'Send Private Message'
If the problem persists ask in the Support section of BL

 

[SKR]

^Arrgh Mobile view six on most phones, I don't mind it so much on iPhone cos It gives me an option of quickly checking threads I've posted in, which is great cos I have fuckall short term memory, otherwise Mobile view six some big round hairy cojones.

Going back to page one where you had to read my post twice Chase, your comment went over my head which fits because I think you may have been implying I was a bit thick regarding my post? Could you clarify what you meant Chase?

Apologies to mods for moving back off topic but I'm curious.

On topic regarding Lyrica....I've said this many times but apart from sciatica, folks who experience peripheral nerve pains especially down their legs and arms seem to really benefit from Lyrica, I wish it helped me. My Father in Law is a paraplegic these days and has always been on Lyrica 300mg morning and another 30mg at night, same as me but he benefits from it, although he still has pain issues the Lyrica dulls it all down for him which is great, guy can't walk anymore and I'm on more meds than he is ffs.

There can be a bit of an induction phase like anti-depressants which I seem to be able to swap easy enough from SSRI's to SNRI's seamlessly and even starting them for the first time I noticed improvement but with my first few uses of Lyrica I had newfound suicidal thoughts, impending doom anxiety increase and nightmares that would make we wake and sit bolt upright and yell out asking where I was and whether everything is ok and it would take my wife a bit of time convincing me all is well and that I was dreaming etc. More recently though I have to say I cannot feel Lyrica's effects at even triple my dose which would be 900mg's and I would have to exceed gram doses probably around 1.6 - 1.9g's for it's 'recreational' effects, it's weird ass fuckin' wobbly legged effects.

 

[theGirlWithBlueHair]

The calcium channel inhibition - and resulting decrease in norepinephrine and glutamate - is the reason all anticonvulsants' come with the warning for suicidal thoughts and actions. If they recur, please consider stopping the lyrica, as neurontin and lyrica are known to be especially notorious for this effect, compared to other ones. stay safe.

Do you notice any stimulation at those higher dosages in the gram range?

 

[chase_in_56ace]

^Take it daily for two years or even one year. I can gobble a gram of the stuff (Lyrica) and not 'feel' the drug at all. I take as prescribed 300mgs morning and night which is considered the highest maximum recommended daily dosage (Scary in itself when you consider ow much folks take recreationally). But it does not help my pain and I'm tapering down these days. I seem to be able to halve my daily intake and not suffer any WD.

However, I know WD is there because there was a time when I skipped my doses and at the 48hr mark I started to fall apart having been on the drug 12months at the time. Sweats, weird headaches and general wobbly vision and walking became difficult. So I did the right thing and fled back to my car from the noisy brightly lit noisy supermarket and jumped behind the wheel and drove the short distance home - then took 150mgs and felt normal after about one hour.

If you are in chronic pain in Australia the first thing thy push is Lyrica - pfizer have done a great job marketing this drug, but if you don't take Lyrica you can forget about stronger pain killers like Oxycodone or Oxycontin - what they don't know is that 'Oxycontin' if bought as a Sandoz generic, crushes to a powder and voila - you have oxycodone, so we don't have to suffer those plastic pieces of oxycontin shit....back on topic....Yep if you are not on Lyrica, which they give out like candy especially to those patients in pain then you haven't tried hard enough and you will not get anything else so you have to be on both.

I must say I do wish Lyrica was a full agonist opiate because WD's are no where near as bad as with Oxycodone I don't think.

The TIN in Neurontin come from tin in gabapentin

And you're rude as fuck.

I thought he was implying the TIN was from the TIN in OxyContin since the previous poster mentioned oxycodone and was talking about that. That was my train of thought and I was just trying to provide some information so stop being an asshole

From their post they were not implying it came from tin in gabapentin so it is not annoying of me to point it out; I'm sure some readers find it interesting

Alright, enough bashing, please get back on topic.
And btw, you can put people on ignore, go to their profile and click 'Add to Ignore List'

^Arrgh Mobile view six on most phones, I don't mind it so much on iPhone cos It gives me an option of quickly checking threads I've posted in, which is great cos I have fuckall short term memory, otherwise Mobile view six some big round hairy cojones.

Going back to page one where you had to read my post twice Chase, your comment went over my head which fits because I think you may have been implying I was a bit thick regarding my post? Could you clarify what you meant Chase?

Apologies to mods for moving back off topic but I'm curious.

On topic regarding Lyrica....I've said this many times but apart from sciatica, folks who experience peripheral nerve pains especially down their legs and arms seem to really benefit from Lyrica, I wish it helped me. My Father in Law is a paraplegic these days and has always been on Lyrica 300mg morning and another 30mg at night, same as me but he benefits from it, although he still has pain issues the Lyrica dulls it all down for him which is great, guy can't walk anymore and I'm on more meds than he is ffs.

There can be a bit of an induction phase like anti-depressants which I seem to be able to swap easy enough from SSRI's to SNRI's seamlessly and even starting them for the first time I noticed improvement but with my first few uses of Lyrica I had newfound suicidal thoughts, impending doom anxiety increase and nightmares that would make we wake and sit bolt upright and yell out asking where I was and whether everything is ok and it would take my wife a bit of time convincing me all is well and that I was dreaming etc. More recently though I have to say I cannot feel Lyrica's effects at even triple my dose which would be 900mg's and I would have to exceed gram doses probably around 1.6 - 1.9g's for it's 'recreational' effects, it's weird ass fuckin' wobbly legged effects.

SKR i literally meant i have such bad short term memory from neurontin i had to read your post twice lol.

 

[SKR]

lol You and I my friend are on the same page, exactly lol. Where am I again?