How is PCP different from classical psychedelics?

[TheBlackPirate]

I was going through medical journals recently and noticed something new recently about PCP in comparison with classical psychedelics. Classical psychedelics are associated with reductions in violence and in the same situation PCP is associated with increases in violent acts.

I realize PCP users suffer from perma-tolerance and animal models demonstrate PCP causes brain damage (unconfirmed in humans). Talking about those purported effects of PCP isn't why I created this thread.

My thoughts are perhaps differences in the experience and/or pharmacological action causes the variation. Speaking of the medical journals here they are:

J Psychopharmacol. 2016 Apr 19. pii: 0269881116642538. [Epub ahead of print]
Hallucinogen use and intimate partner violence: Prospective evidence consistent with protective effects among men with histories of problematic substance use.
Walsh Z1, Hendricks PS2, Smith S3, Kosson DS3, Thiessen MS4, Lucas P5, Swogger MT6.

Author information

1Department of Psychology, University of British Columbia, Kelowna, BC, Canada [email protected].
2School of Public Health, University of Alabama at Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, USA.
3Department of Psychology, Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, Chicago, IL, USA.
4Department of Psychology, University of British Columbia, Kelowna, BC, Canada.
5Centre for Addictions Research of BC, University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada.
6University of Rochester Medical Center, Rochester, NY, USA.

Abstract

Evidence suggests that hallucinogens may have therapeutic potential for addressing a variety of problem behaviors related to the externalizing spectrum of psychopathology, such as substance misuse and criminality. Intimate partner violence (IPV) is a prevalent form of criminal violence that is related to externalizing pathology. However, the association between hallucinogen use and IPV has not been comprehensively examined. In this prospective study, we examined the association between IPV and naturalistic hallucinogen use among 302 inmates at a US county jail. Cox regression analyses indicated that hallucinogen use predicted reduced arrest for IPV independently (β=-0.54,SE=0.20, χ2=7.19, exp(B)=0.58,p<0.01) and after accounting for covariates (β=-0.48,SE=0.23, χ2=4.44, exp(B)=0.62,p<0.05). These results add to a growing literature suggesting distinct therapeutic potential for hallucinogens to assist in the attenuation of problematic behavior.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27097733/

J Addict Dis. 2013;32(2):150-7. doi: 10.1080/10550887.2013.797279.
The association between phencyclidine use and partner violence: an initial examination.
Crane CA1, Easton CJ, Devine S.


Author information

1Research Institute on Addictions, University at Buffalo, SUNY, Buffalo, NY 14203, USA. [email protected]

Abstract

The association between phencyclidine (PCP) use and violent behavior is unclear. The current investigation evaluated the association between PCP addiction and intimate partner violence, a specific violent behavior, using the substance abuse evaluations of 109 PCP, 81 cannabis, and 97 polysubstance (alcohol and cannabis) abusing offenders. Relative to both comparison groups, PCP users were more likely to receive inpatient referrals, have a significant legal history, and have perpetrated past-year general and intimate partner violence. Data suggest that PCP use may be associated with greater violence perpetration than cannabis use alone or in conjunction with problematic alcohol use.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23815422/

Obviously larger studies and further research is necessary. With the evidence available, lets discuss how classical psychedelics are associated with decreases in this behavior while PCP is associated with increased partner violence. How are classical psychedelics different than PCP? Are the experiences different and/or is this a difference in pharmacological mechanism of action?

 

[DerDiebKommt]

If I remember correctly PCP is a dissociative, which technically isn't a psyhadelic. Some people however call them "dissociative psychadelics". It's much more comparable to DXM or Ketamine instead of your common LSD which is not dissociative.

So, a basic answer would be that it's technically not a psychadelic at all.

 

[zn13bt]

Yes, dissociatives like PCP or ketamine are NMDA antagonists, while psychedelics are 5-HT2a agonists. Completely different mechanisms of action, even though the two classes of drugs are somewhat comparable in their effects. (I think of it as being like the via negativa and via positiva in mysticism.)

 

[Hodor]

As DerDiebKommt already pointed out, PCP is a dissociative ("NMDA antagonist"), not a classic psychedelic ("serotonin agonist").

Besides its dissociative action, PCP also seems to agonize certain dopamine receptors, as well as inhibit the reuptake of dopamine. The latter would make the drug more compulsive and stimulating, and could, over time, lead to psychosis, which would be further amplified by the direct dopamine receptor agonism.

 

[Help?!?!]

TBP already stated he knows the different pharmalogical actions of these drugs accounts for some of it in the OP. Hodor's pretty much spot on. Dissociatives with dirty binding seems much more powerful for causing psychosis to happen then psychedelics.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

PCP is certainly a psychedlic though not a classic one as has been stated.
Ketamine, MXE, and PCP have the capacity to be extrordinarily psychedlic though it's through a different mechanism than classic psychedelics.
As with most drugs but especially with dissociatives, the route of administration dramatically effects how the drugs effects and with PCP it seems that smoking it is what tends to lead the sort of psychosis you see where dudes are naked and hosing down cops in abandoned schools or whatever.
There have been many times when ive taken largish doses of MXE and suddenly I'm left wondering where I am (my own basement) and who the hell is sitting next to me ( my girlfriend).
So just imagine someone who isn't good at keeping their shit together does some PCP and suddenly they have no idea where they are or who anyone is or if the people that are trying to help are actually hurting them or whatever
While feeling fully anesthetitized and tripping balls.
I should point out that I've never tried PCP. But I am fascinated by it and it's analogs. Everything I've stated has been from research and reading.
I don't think PCP should ever be smoked period.

 

[MadeInChicago]

I don't think PCP should ever be smoked period.

thats the most common way it is consumed, is the fact ppl lose their shit on it the reason?

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

My understanding is that it's primarily sold as ciggarettes dipped in liquid PCP because smoking it gives you a good bang for your buck and it's a hell of a lot easier than messing with needles.
It also allows dealers to sell "wet daddy's" at a standard price and the customer never knows how much their actually getting so one wet daddy might be way more potent then the last one.
This I think greatly contributes to a possible overdose and I also speculate that smoking it is the most stimulating ROA which makes a possible freak out that much worse.

 

[Help?!?!]

That is. The thing is the people primarily selling PCP are inner city people. PCP is highly active at 5-10 mgs. Do you really thing someone like that is going to have the proper scale to weigh that shit? Doubt it. So they use volumetric measurement. The problem is they use cigarettes as the medium. Do you think these people are going to be thoroughly see how many mls a standard cigarette can absorb.

Smoking PCP probably isn't a great idea but it's a super potent promiscuous binder anyways. The good thing about it though is if you do enough you be to anesthesized to move really.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

PCP is certainly a psychedlic though not a classic one as has been stated.
Ketamine, MXE, and PCP have the capacity to be extrordinarily psychedlic though it's through a different mechanism than classic psychedelics.
As with most drugs but especially with dissociatives, the route of administration dramatically effects how the drugs effects and with PCP it seems that smoking it is what tends to lead the sort of psychosis you see where dudes are naked and hosing down cops in abandoned schools or whatever.
There have been many times when ive taken largish doses of MXE and suddenly I'm left wondering where I am (my own basement) and who the hell is sitting next to me ( my girlfriend).
So just imagine someone who isn't good at keeping their shit together does some PCP and suddenly they have no idea where they are or who anyone is or if the people that are trying to help are actually hurting them or whatever
While feeling fully anesthetitized and tripping balls.
I should point out that I've never tried PCP. But I am fascinated by it and it's analogs. Everything I've stated has been from research and reading.
I don't think PCP should ever be smoked period.

How do you believe it should be consumed then? I know people who snorted it as they were told it was synthetic THC in the 70s and they said how they almost passed out from the PCP, and they did not even use that much of it.

I grew up in an area where PCP is common. I've never used it and never want to; but most people just smoke it, or smoke it in a large or small group of people. Nobody I knew who has ever used it became violent or went crazy like you see on youtube videos or read about in the media. This includes people who used small, moderate, and even large/extremely large doses of the drug.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

How do you believe it should be consumed then? I know people who snorted it as they were told it was synthetic THC in the 70s and they said how they almost passed out from the PCP, and they did not even use that much of it.

I grew up in an area where PCP is common. I've never used it and never want to; but most people just smoke it, or smoke it in a large or small group of people. Nobody I knew who has ever used it became violent or went crazy like you see on youtube videos or read about in the media. This includes people who used small, moderate, and even large/extremely large doses of the drug.

I can only speculate but I think orally is probably the safest ROA and sone oral trip reports on erowid almost make it sound like MMDA (closed eye visuals resembling movies rather than CEV.)
I also speculate that carefully dosed (small) rectal ROA might be less stimulating if I can extrapolate anything from my MXE experience.
I think smoking and snorting seem too stimulating for most disso's.

 

[Help?!?!]

Oral is defintely the best ROA. It's just most people sell it in ether and a lot of people using it don't have the proper scales to weigh it. PCP isn't really stimulating except maybe in smaller doses. Higher doses are very anesthetic. You might still be able to move but falling/melting into your seat is much better. The reason people lose it a lot is as I stated. There's no standard volume measurement for a PCP. One cigarette might have ten mgs in total(a high but still doable dose!)or 20mgs(a really high dose that most people would have more than trouble dealing with!). The only thing someone might tell you is, only takeca couple hits, put it out, see how you feel, then smoke more if you want. Well what if one person smokes two times a bigger more standard hit size due to large lung capacity? Not a very accurate way to do a really potent really cognitively warping drug!

 

[MSK]

Aaaaand that's why I think we should have got a Dissociatives subforum. Lately there are more posts about dissos than psychedelics in this subforum...

 

[szuko000]

I have consumed PCP twice in my life. The first time I tried to match puff for puff with this one kid who smoked it almost everyday. I was later informed that when they decided to leave the area they were smoking it in (friends house) they have to carry me into the other room so when i "came too" i wouldnt be alone in a room wondering what happened. After about 1.5 hours i came out of my coma type spot and stopped having what could be called a "PCP-hole" and finally started remembering things as they happened. I didnt freak out talk or move and was limp enough to be carried into a different room. Upon waking it was like being on K or dxm in a strange sense and even those drugs i just sit there so i spent most of the time sitting in a chair.

The second time i took 3 hits off a blunt these 2 older guys i would get dope with were smoking. I only say older because i was 25 at the time and they were 39 and 40. But yeah I took 3 hits from that and it made life weird. Not in a bad way in a low dose of ketamine way where walking's hard but your coherent enough to remember the primary objectives, like "i walked to this door to open it and go inside" I have forced people on PCP out of my car because we went to get dope and they smoked themselves into a stupor and i have driven off as they stood motionless in a parking lot of stood in front of the door to their apartment just standing there motionlessly as i drove off. So its easy to "forget" what you are doing. It should be noted that these people werent my "friends" just associates that i picked up with and the 2 in question both had one time where they got incoherent and i drove them around until they could be functional but it was explained id only do that once. So i left one of them in a parking lot of their friends apartment, he chose to lay in the middle of the lot and get an ambulance called on him for being unresponsive. Everyone thought it was funny because he was an older former prison inmate but like still kinda looked the part and i am a small very young white guy so the few people i did go with would constantly be like "yeah szuko isnt kidding he actually left tommy in a parking lot to get picked up by an ambulance..." Ah PCP craziness, i have seen enough of it in my time...

 

[LSD-Magic]

I had audio hallucinations from PCP. I really enjoyed it.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

Aaaaand that's why I think we should have got a Dissociatives subforum. Lately there are more posts about dissos than psychedelics in this subforum...

I agree, partially. This forum isn't focused on psychedelics anymore. The mechanism of action, safety, and culture of dissociative drugs is extremely different than classical psychedelics. Most of the comments in this forum describe dissociatives. Perhaps we should rename this sub-forum the "Dissociative Drugs" forum and put psychedelics in the Other Drugs forum?

When laymen think of psychedelics they think of the safety and culture of LSD and classical psychedelics. Naming this forum primarily focused on dissociative drugs "Psychedelic Drugs" isn't exactly accurate and could easily confuse novices about dissociative drugs' safety and nature.

Perhaps we should rename the forum the Dissociative Drugs forum and put psychedelics in the Other Drugs forum?

 

[xammy]

I'm looking forward to Dissociative Drugs forum too.

 

[Help?!?!]

I agree, partially. This forum isn't focused on psychedelics anymore. The mechanism of action, safety, and culture of dissociative drugs is extremely different than classical psychedelics. Most of the comments in this forum describe dissociatives. Perhaps we should rename this sub-forum the "Dissociative Drugs" forum and put psychedelics in the Other Drugs forum?

When laymen think of psychedelics they think of the safety and culture of LSD and classical psychedelics. Naming this forum primarily focused on dissociative drugs "Psychedelic Drugs" isn't exactly accurate and could easily confuse novices about dissociative drugs' safety and nature.

Perhaps we should rename the forum the Dissociative Drugs forum and put psychedelics in the Other Drugs forum?

No. Maybe we could rename it Psychedelic and Dissociative Drugs. There's no real no need to spilt them up... Also for a guy who claims to not be biased you often sound pretty biased...! When a person reads Psychedelic Drugs, I'd have to assume they think Psychedelic Drugs, then maybe about the psychedelic drugs they know, then maybe nuances they know about PD's. Your making it sound like dissociatives aren't safe...while like any chemical class, some are safer, and some aren't as safe. You meant not have meant it like that, that's how I read it though, so disregard if it wasn't meant like that....

Also the OD preamble,
Other Drugs (OD) is designed for discussion of the queries regarding other drugs (ie not psychadelics or MDMA) not covered by the following two forums:

Basic Drug Discussion (BDD): as the name suggests, basic drug Qs. The next post will soon cover examples of material suited for BDD
Advanced Drug Discussion (ADD): chemistry-related and more science based course, discussion of novel compounds etc etc

Obviously OD covers a broad range of topics since it lumps in what is not included by BD and ADD. However, a lot of the material being posted can be found with very little effort on the original poster's part (OP). Questions such as:
* If I take suboxone 12 hours after taking heroin will I go into preciptated withdrawals?
* I have a 160mg oxycodone tolerance, will 50mg hydrocodone get me high?
* Does anyone notice the difference between brand names and generics?

All these questions have been answered countless times before, and it is for that reason that unless you cannot find the answer through searching, we will not be going over the same material ad nauseum. Of course if you have something new to add to a topic, then that is encouraged. But the repetitive, easy to research answers will not be answered just because people are too lazy to search themselves. Of course if you cant find an answer after searching, then ask away.

The mods are not trying to be a rule-Nazis here, but this needs to be done to maintain the high posting standards of OD, so over the next few weeks, I will be reminded everyone what belongs here and what doesnt. I will be putting clear notices on why something is moved or why a thread is closed. If you have an issue PM me directly, do not start a new thread!

Take care guys,

djsim

Plus if we put it in OD a lot of the threads would be lost in the fray of random drug questions. This forum has essentially been the safe in terms of layout since I first started visiting in 06. Not that some things don't need updating ocassionally!

Really though there's like twenty times the amount of psychedelic threads than dissociatives, their simply becoming more popular. Maybe we could make a dissociative sub forum though.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

This forum is entirely focused on psychedelics and the disso's that are discussed are all true psychedelics in their own right. I don't think it's fare to say that all disso's are more dangerous than all psychedelics - that is just completley untrue.
MXE and Ketemine are far safer than a lot of psychedelics (nbome series??? )
And let's not forget nitrous... It's literally administered to birthing mothers when pretty much everything else is too risky to administer.
I do think that the Black Pirate has a very narrow and pigeon-holed view of what psychedlic even are ( it's far more than the classics these days )
MXE and K are extrordinarly psychedlic and spiritual entheogens it's too bad the B.P. won't open his mind to even the possibility of this.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

^I didn't say my opinion was dissociatives aren't psychedelics I said:

When laymen think of psychedelics they think of the safety and culture of LSD and classical psychedelics. ?

This is true. Look at the first definition of psychedelic from merriam-webster dictionary on-line:

psychedelic
noun psy·che·del·ic \ˌsī-kə-ˈde-lik\
: a psychedelic drug (such as LSD)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Psychedelic


The colloquial usage of the word psychedelic and common understanding of the word psychedelic most people have references classical serotonergic psychedelics. Sure people with an esoteric focus debate if dissociatives fit in this category. The important thing is considering the perspective of uninformed first time users seeking harm reduction information. Those novice users consider "psychedelics" classical psychedelics such as LSD. Clarification is important because the risks of using each drug group are vastly different as are the necessary precautions in staying safe.