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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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G-Chem : do you have any references or articles about Shulgin and his wife? I'd like to read about them
 
^^^Id give ya hug if I could :)

And yea some places just didn't respond well to dancesafe. Sadly now it's only gotten worse over the years where many venues and festivals won't allow them because it goes against the RAVE Act. I've watched as it went from them being at most festivals I went to and some shows to them having to essentially be covert in their mission to protect others. Truly sad. I saw them get shut down mid way in a festival one time.

That same festival some guy was walking around selling bottles of Marquis with near zero info on them. One girl had one open up in her pocket and wasn't aware of the caustic nature until it was too late. This is why we need booths with professionals.

-GC
 
I once got marquis testing liquid in my eye. My whole face was swollen. That was interesting to explain to the eye doctor. :/
 
indigoaura said:
And Scatterday...your comments about weed remind me of something I have noticed. Lots of the LTC threads involve mixing MDMA and weed, or smoking weed shortly after the MDMA experience. Makes me wonder if there is a connection. I have seen some people go off the rails after heavy marijuana use. When you said you were hospitalized when you stopped smoking, I am curious what you were hospitalized for. Was it anxiety/depression and similar to LTC?
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I smoked cannabis via a bong from the ages of 13-18ish heavily, Stopped and started 3 times between the years mentioned. I believe what you're claiming about the LTC's have no connection with cannabis at all, Subjective opinions of course.

All the hospitalisations were as a result of withdrawal symptoms, Folks say there's no withdrawal symptoms from cannabis but that's a lie if you're a heavy user.

Symptoms included feeling body organs and pains inside my body that weren't real. (I could feel what I believed to be my liver and just an uncomfortable feeling in that area which in the following few days had some blood work done and everything came back fine. Liver and kidneys were functioning perfectly and the doctors said they wouldn't have known I was a cigarette smoker if I hadn't had told them, Stopped smoking 5-6 years ago and took up using electronic cigarettes instead. Haven't felt healthier since. Senses of taste and smell have increased which is fantastic.)

One of the hospitalisations included thoughts of skin cancer on my neck. The doctor told me not to worry because it was cannabis withdrawals causing these "fake" pains. (due to the withdrawal symtoms) where I could feel this uncomfortable feeling where this mole was. (Had that checked out and there was no signs or indications of skin cancer). Thoughts of death were another regular occurence which is when the doctors first prescribed me temazepam for the anxiety but unfortunately now temazepam isn't strong enough.

The first time I stopped smoking cannabis and picked the habit back up again, It was just never the same I used to smoke to feel normal and would enjoy working a 12 hour shift and unwinding with a bong, Not much beat that feeling. I couldn't enjoy it anymore though and would feel like there was a pressure like feeling in my head like my brain was expanding and throbbing, Extreme paranoia, Anxiety ect. Getting too high would feel uncomfortable where as prior I could smoke until the point of almost "greening out" and still enjoy it.

Experimented with it lately multiple times and I have enjoyed it with a friend but I've left it at that and learnt never to abuse it again. Cannabis with old school MDMA was the perfect chill out/comedown drug if you would call it that because it would extend the experience and eventually bring you back to earth gently from the amphetamine high.

I firmly believe now I have a neurotransmitter imbalance because of abusing cannabis on a growing adolescent brain.

For 7-8 years I've had symptoms of anxiety, agoraphobia, paranoia, mood swings, insomnia, Mild/Rare depression and bowel issues. (caused by the anxiety and agoraphobia). Generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) pretty much sums up most of it but the damage was definitely done by the cannabis and I'm sure.

If you've heard of PGR cannabis that's what I was unaware of at the time and I believe I was smoking plenty of it which lead to the statements above. Now I'm very picky with cannabis if I smoke it.

What worries me most is most of these symptoms above are/can be lifelong and never disappear this is why xanax and old school MDMA not used in conjunction with eachother (Maybe on the comedown but we used to smoke cannabis to potentiate the MDMA high for an extended period of approximately 3-4 hours) are my all time favourite drugs.

Now that I've been introduced to xanax (alprazolam) I feel like I've reconnected with my former self 7-8 years ago before these mental health issues started. I was chatting up a female police officer and cutting her colleagues lunch because I think her male partner fancied her so he threatened me. I knew she loved it too because her face went bright pink and she was fanning herself. She kept looking over at me and smiling. All of this was done on a few xanax tri score bars.

If he wasn't there I was sure I would have got her phone number and had been able to arrange a few dates. Yet to know the female police officer was dating someone who was a regular illicit and pharmaceutical drug user.

Now when I've taken alprazolam I'm always looking for wedding rings because there was another funny incident which I'll explain some other time.

I used to be this confident and be able to speak to women like that normally without any drugs.

Enough about my anyway I get carried away and tend to derail the thread regularly.

Another thought that popped into mind was if you aren't a regular cannabis user (a few times per month) and have access to MDMA you can most likely get cannabis too. Try getting high with some sativa cannabis prior to your experience to see if it potentiates the experience and brings back those lovely feelings or at least parts of them.

There could be several things affecting the way we interpret the feeling produced by MDMA now. Cannabis, Synthesis, Safrole vs piperanol, Isomer ratios, Salts, By-products, Contaminants, Adulterants, Amphetamines.

It's really just all a matter of elimination until we find the source but I find it extremely coincidental around 2008 when the safrole treaty was signed MDMA disappeared then when it returned stronger and more accessible those psychological and physiological feelings weren't the same. Everyone says it no matter who you ask, Just all seems to coincidental if you ask me.

Whenever I used MDMA it was like I was being lifted into the clouds/heaven gently. Now it's this mongy type dirty feeling.

If they claim it's still the same they must never tried an early 2000's era pill or pre 2000 era pill containing MDMA.

Upon remembering I was never a heavy smoker when I consumed MDMA and we would never mix our cannabis with tobacco when rolling which is strange because if we weren't rolling it would always make us cough but we could pack massive bong hits and inhale them like champions and have the MDMA high potentiated even further upon smoking the cannabis.

I always looked after my body preventing neurotoxicity with 5-htp in any way I could. Using it for a while before an MDMA experience then stopping at a certain point before the experience and waiting until after the MDMA was completely gone from my system before I took the 5-htp again.

Piracetam is honestly something worth looking into because on new years back a few years ago taking piracetam daily as recommended definitely changed the experience in a better way.

It felt like as some may say "the magic is gone" but the magic was still there. Still not the same experience as early 2000's era but I'd rate the experience a 6/10 and I'm very fussy when it comes to rating my experiences.

Those purple crowns I linked in one of my last comments I would rate 10/10 without question.

If you read through most of those reports they all mention a "feint/musky/aniseed" type smell but I don't get that smell anymore. It's still resembles aniseed in a way but not the smell I am familiar with.

If you gave me a purple crown (The one I experienced) and a 2018 dutch super strong 300mg MDMA pill I would be able to tell you without touching only smelling and my eyes closed which one the purple crown was.

I mean doesn't it say it's a dead give away when we're getting 300mg pills now with quarter scoring on them when early 2000's era we were getting 100-150mg at most per pill. Something about MDMA has changed. If they're affording to put 300mg of "Pure" MDMA inside pills it makes me wonder how they're cutting costs because they've found a way to do that via cheaper precursors and or synthesis techniques (piperanol I'm looking at you).

I mean even the feeling of the after effects (being scattered as us aussies would say, Which is where "scatterday") the name came from has changed. The hangover type feeling feels different now.
 
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@MD- Check out the documentary "Dirty Pictures" from what I can remember. Very good and gives you a huge insight into their lives.

-GC
 
Scatterday, I don't want to de-rail the post too much, but there is something you should look into. You said:

For 7-8 years I've had symptoms of anxiety, agoraphobia, paranoia, mood swings, insomnia, Mild/Rare depression and bowel issues. (caused by the anxiety and agoraphobia). Generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) pretty much sums up most of it but the damage was definitely done by the cannabis and I'm sure.
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Have you ever been checked for a B12 deficiency?

a severe vitamin B12 deficiency can lead to deep depression, paranoia and delusions, memory loss, incontinence, loss of taste and smell, and more.
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https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-be-sneaky-harmful-201301105780

Anxiety can be a huge issue for those who have a B12 deficiency. Even if you don't get tested, you should try supplementing with a sublingual methylcobalmin. I use a spray from a company called Garden of Life. If you want more details or anecdotes, PM me. Oral vitamins won't do anything if your bowel issues are preventing you from absorbing the B12 properly in the digestive system. There are genetic issues as well, which can be complicated.

Totally worth it to supplement and see if it helps your anxiety.
 
indigoaura said:
Scatterday, I don't want to de-rail the post too much, but there is something you should look into. You said:



Have you ever been checked for a B12 deficiency?



https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-be-sneaky-harmful-201301105780

Anxiety can be a huge issue for those who have a B12 deficiency. Even if you don't get tested, you should try supplementing with a sublingual methylcobalmin. I use a spray from a company called Garden of Life. If you want more details or anecdotes, PM me. Oral vitamins won't do anything if your bowel issues are preventing you from absorbing the B12 properly in the digestive system. There are genetic issues as well, which can be complicated.

Totally worth it to supplement and see if it helps your anxiety.
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My vitamin B levels was actually higher than usual last blood results. GP told me to stop taking multi vitamins and that was the cause of the elevation in vitamin levels.

I can most certainly pin point it down to my cannabis abuse as a young adolescent.
 
I will be sending 2 samples of unwashed and washed MDMA off to a laboratory for gc/ms testing in approximately a month or two. They're able to determine isomer ratios and I can report back with my experience.

The chemist of the laboratory said that piperanol can most definitely change the isomer ratios of MDMA so I think we can solidly speculate why MDMA is different now if it's being synthesized with piperanol. If they were previously synthesising MDMA with safrole the isomer ratios would have indeed been different according to the gc/ms chemist.

He said he obtained a sample of safrole 10 years ago and didn't know what it was until I told him it was a precursor in MDMA along with piperanol being the new precursor that's replaced it. He also explains it's cheap to buy which is most likely why the street chemists manufacturing these dutch mongy pills can afford to put more MDMA in their pills.

300mg per pill give or take is absurd for a pill when pre 2008 before the treaty was signed we were likely to see 100-150mg.

Until these gc/ms tests come back and I upload my erowid user report we cannot know for sure.

It'll be interesting to find if washing the MDMA will change the isomer ratios or not. This is something I'm definitely very interested in and so is the chemist.

Just thought I'd chime in with my findings to see what others think but isomer ratios and synthesis routes are the most likely cause at this point in time according to the gc/ms chemist.

He also did mention piperanol was a reagent for testing in the laboratory and was pleasantly surprised when I said it was the new precursor for MDMA.
 
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This great insightful post pretty much sums it up.

Back in the days, MDMA had the more potent S-Isomer MDMA. Then in the mid to late 2000s and early 2010s, MDMA was mainly synthed through PMK oil, which was 50-S/50-R MDMA and almost as potent as the Safrole MDMA dose for dose. Nowadays, it is probably synthed in new cheaper and easier ways like with Piperanol, we can assume that synth route gives a R-Isomer dominant MDMA, hence is less potent and needs higher doses. Also when I was doing MDMA in 2012, the prices were higher IIRC around $40 for a gram, nowadays it's $10 for a gram with is ridiculously cheap. Drugs don't get cheaper, unless there's a good reason why like bigger blackmarket competition or less potency due to a different synthesis route.

So if users want the "Old school" MDMA back, your best realistic bet is to go with the RS MDMA, you just need to find a hookup that has a batch of PMK oil synthesized MDMA. This is just my take on the whole situation and of course, I might be wrong. ;)

Biscuit said:
For anyone still doubting the effects which changing the isometric ratio of the S and R isomers in MDMA is going to have, I found this on a web page that had collated a lot of information about phenylethylamines:

the-chemistry-of-mdma-and-various-other-phenethylamines-8-638.jpg


http://www.slideshare.net/RyanHemming/the-chemistry-of-mdma-and-various-other-phenethylamines

The increase in the dosages of these pills is not a coincidence either, something which the above image confirms seems very likely due to the MDMA containing a much greater proportion of the "much less potent" R isomer over the S.
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^^^We've got lots of evidence that prove the contrary, and it's safe to say that while isomer ratios vary it's doubtful they are the reason people complain about mdma these days. One isomer may be more desirable but I doubt it'd effect things much in terms of the problems we're seeing unless it was very high quantities of R-MDMA.

And great job scatterday! That's all very interesting that the lab chemist seems to agree it could vary as well as the other information he told you. I'm excited to see the results in the future!

-GC
 
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Been busy...

Im confused ? The chemist Scatterday spoke with thinks that isomer ratios will be different. But You dont think it has an effect?

A differing synthetic route can create a different subjective experience in only two ways
1.) different precursors or side reactions creating different side effects
2.) Isomeric ratio of the end product.

Thats it. So if it is the synthetic route that is diffferent, these are the only two things it can be

Another thing I find interesting: What is with all these weird posts and stories about long term comedowns and shit? I had never seen this when I was young. Is it some new thing or are people who roll too much getting their own name for the condition?

And what is with these dutch pills that have 220mg ? Kids may be too dumb to know that you should split them, which I have seen on the websites selling them suggesting. And when you buy from a third party on the street he probably doesnt tell you what the description said on the website. This is leading to LTC and all the bad reactions to MDMA. Or is it that the MDMA sucks and they need to give you 220mg for a good roll, but it now has twice the junk in it creating more side effects?

This does nothing for the guy that weighs crystals and takes 120 and says the roll sucks though..
 
Dosages are so high in dutch pills because the subpar product isn't producing desired effects. I'm not sure what you mean about it meaning nothing to the guy that weighs out 120mg and has a shitty roll, though. The last three times I've had MDMA has been this subpar shit, greyish crystals, weighed out and taken from 120-150mg, and it's all been meh. I'm not sure taking more would even fix it. As of now, my believe is that the LTC is from neurotoxic impurities combining with the potentially/inherent neurotoxic properties of MDMA and causing massive backlash.
 
Beenhead said:
Or is it that the MDMA sucks and they need to give you 220mg for a good roll, but it now has twice the junk in it creating more side effects?
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Probably that...
And I still don't see how they can sell it at the ridiculously low prices they sell it nowadays. Used to be $20 a pill typically.
 
@Beenhead, I've never said it doesn't have an effect.. Quite the contrary. I've said I don't think it's responsible for the whole plethora of issues we see with MDMA these days.

Bringing up the LTC is a good example. I 100% agree that LTC seems to be something that's only become problematic since this "change" people speak of. I can say with almost complete certainty that LTC is not caused by an excess of R-MDMA. (Or S for that matter.)

When we look at Glubras reports we see that people can get floored by and thoroughly enjoy R-MDMA heavy product.

Maybe if it was like almost pure R-MDMA would people start being disappointed. But if people took enough they'd feel it, and on top of that it'd last much longer than today's product.

Again the isomers vary a lot from one another but is it the cause of our problems? Probably not in my opinion. It doesn't come close to fitting the profile.

I could believe if maybe it was a combination of R heavy product with an impurity causing the issues but not R-MDMA by itself.

I believe isomer variation of mdma is probably as old as mdma itself based on my research and experiences but we'll never know if I'm right...

-GC
 
IMO, there has to be some kind of impurity present in addition to potential isomer variation. There is just too much sickness with the comedown. With the sleepy product I have had access to, there can be a sick comedown even at relatively low doses. And if you raise the dose too high, you still don't roll right, but you get super sick afterwards.

Back in the day (early 2000s), it was not uncommon for me to take 5 pills in a night. Never had sick comedowns like this.

Scatterday - I want to send your chemist a sample. Is that possible?
 
Ionized said:
Probably that...
And I still don't see how they can sell it at the ridiculously low prices they sell it nowadays. Used to be $20 a pill typically.
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The chemist at the gc/ms laboratory said piperanol was a reagent they used in chemistry for the equipment they used to analyse substances with. Can't remember what exactly but he said it's cheap and comes in 2 forms.

That's why they're able to put 300mg per pill because of precursor pricing.

safrole was more risky to import and not to mention more expensive.

Anyone who says their product is safrole based doesn't have a clue because it's under such strict regulation currently the chances of seeing or obtaining it would be near impossible unless you live in Cambodia (Or canada perhaps I hear) where there is a forest with abundance of the sassafras tree.

2008 was the nail in the coffin for MDMA and once I get my results back it will be able to identify what isomer ratio's we should be expecting with piperanol synth. Which should be racemic (50:50) as far as I'm concerned. I could be wrong but who knows. It's only speculation up until this point

I think the old method of synthesis is responsible for how MDMA used to make us feel regarding isomer ratios. A precursor and different method of synthesis which they would have to be performing with piperanol will change the isomer ratios.

As I said that's why they can afford to put 300mg of MDMA per pill now because their cost fee is much less to synthesise the MDMA.

Nobody has lost the magic and neurotoxic damage as far as I'm concerned isn't responsible for this. Even watching new timers take MDMA doesn't remind me of the times we used to take it in the early to mid 2000's era.

There's no shaking of hands between friends and anybody rolling, There's no deep and meaningful conversations, The willingness to communicate isn't there anymore all people do is couch lock and roll their eyes back, There's no telling people how much you love them. All of these psychological effects aren't visible to a user watching people roll.

I was still feeling fantastic up until the moment it became unavailable to source. Do not blame neurotoxicity for the changes in MDMA. Your brain is a powerful organ and can repair it's self over time.

My experiences were regular and consistent with how the MDMA used to feel up until the treaty was signed.

That's what happens. You attempt to mend 1 problem then another larger one appears, Which is responsible for the meth epidemic and usage in Australia.

Meth is the new party drug because MDMA based pills were unobtainable from 2008-2011 if I recall correctly.

I mean it's not just us Australians that notice this it's worldwide and there still are rare experiences of people claiming they had the real deal and it sounds like the real deal. These are experienced and seasoned users not just newbies.

The magic still lies out there but so does the key to unlocking it. Eventually and hopefully after the gc/ms test results arrive we will have more of an opinion and discussion to relate towards or eliminate from the potential number of things responsible for the mongy dutch MDMA.

I firmly believe the 300mg per pill is a dead giveaway. 100-150mg is all we needed back in the day which then goes back to 1 isomer ratio heavy batch of MDMA being more potent. If you can drop a full pill as people claim it shows changes in isomer ratios.

There's solid evidence of this.

I mean only a couple of pages back there was a link to an erowid report regarding a user experience on MDMA and how oldschool it felt or how unfamiliar this feeling was.
 
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^^^Its not as rare as you may think but yea for the most part piperanol has pretty much taken over it seems. Canada does put out safrole mdma and it does come into the northern states in the US.

I'd be willing to bet most of the safrole mdma would be found via in person dealers too. Old school product made by old school chemists sold the old school way. Sadly this limits those who live in areas that don't have access to safrole containing plants.

It should be noted Aus does have safrole mdma as well, again though it's through the right circles. Aus mdma scene has and always will be rough though...

I see all the good stuff people say is gone in this thread but I live where high quality mdma is around.

I'll agree I don't see the love at events like I used to though if I travel elsewhere. Giving a random stranger a hug as you walk by or randomly massaging someone or getting one yourself isn't something you see anymore sadly :(. I can't tell why that is though, whether the mdma is bad or cocaine is ruining what I hold dear..

-GC
 
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