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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
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Hilopsilo
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Not sure tbh, I've only had proper MDA a handful of times. 2 of the times i think I was just sold regular MDMA or a mixture of the two, since the effects just seemed like regular MDMA.
2 times I've had 100% confirmed MDA , the first time was from a vendor in 2015 and it was utterly fantastic, nothing "wrong" with it. I remember thinking I would never take normal MDMA again since it was so much fun, but it left me with this stimmed out feeling that kept me from sleeping for ages, that tossing and turning trying to sleep and it just doesn't happen. The second time, I took it with LSD and it got almost too trippy, decided I prefer pairing MDMA with LSD. Again, MDA left em with this sort of hangover, nothing emotional, just sort of cracked-out-can't-sleep feeling.
It's harder to tell with MDA since the psychedelic aspect is sort of magical in and of itself, yknow?
2 times I've had 100% confirmed MDA , the first time was from a vendor in 2015 and it was utterly fantastic, nothing "wrong" with it. I remember thinking I would never take normal MDMA again since it was so much fun, but it left me with this stimmed out feeling that kept me from sleeping for ages, that tossing and turning trying to sleep and it just doesn't happen. The second time, I took it with LSD and it got almost too trippy, decided I prefer pairing MDMA with LSD. Again, MDA left em with this sort of hangover, nothing emotional, just sort of cracked-out-can't-sleep feeling.
It's harder to tell with MDA since the psychedelic aspect is sort of magical in and of itself, yknow?
Glubrahnum
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@G_Chem
Could you draw dashed vertical lines on this graph to denote the different eras like: the piperazine era, mongy meh-MDMA era, etc... ?
The 2007-2008 period seems to have the classical doses described by Shulgin.
The dip was evidently caused by some shortage and the increased doses must be caused by the MDMA being less potent because the human pharmacology could not have changed that much.
@Anyone
Do you have the data to continue this graph up to 2018 ?
Could you draw dashed vertical lines on this graph to denote the different eras like: the piperazine era, mongy meh-MDMA era, etc... ?
The 2007-2008 period seems to have the classical doses described by Shulgin.
The dip was evidently caused by some shortage and the increased doses must be caused by the MDMA being less potent because the human pharmacology could not have changed that much.
@Anyone
Do you have the data to continue this graph up to 2018 ?
Hilopsilo
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IMO part of pills being dosed so high has something to do with DNMs and how widely available it is, the sheer amount of people trying to sell off their MDMA has driven the price down so i guess why not pack pills with more so you can stand out.
Replies still rolling in from the reddit thread, I'll just post anything that sounds remotely scientific in here:
"It could be a positional isomer- mdma with the amine on the benzylic carbon (1-benzodioxyl 1-(methylamino) propane or something) would have the same molar mass as MDMA."
Replies still rolling in from the reddit thread, I'll just post anything that sounds remotely scientific in here:
"It could be a positional isomer- mdma with the amine on the benzylic carbon (1-benzodioxyl 1-(methylamino) propane or something) would have the same molar mass as MDMA."
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Glubrahnum
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I don't know about subjective experiences lately, but MDA is proven to be neurotoxic above 1mg/kg.
MDMA is not proven to be neurotoxic by itself, it is suspected to be though, because 10-15% of it is metabolized to MDA.
Glubrahnum
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That would be an expensive pissing contest for the manufacturers.
ThreePointCircle
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For me same problem really. Get visuals and that cool jump/flip editing visual thing (sorry don't know how to explain it), but low on energy and euphoria like the crappy mdma. Also, the doses of mdma that i've tried recently in a desperate attempt to boost things, have just given a similar roll to mda (I believe because mdma partly metabolises to mda?).
Edit: sorry, missed the quote - this was a reply to the question about mda
Edit: sorry, missed the quote - this was a reply to the question about mda
Hilopsilo
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Take a poke around a DNM and check out just how cheap the stuff is, even the smallest DNM's have 5000+ listings for MDMA
@Glubskis- Yea man I can at least give a good rundown again of the various era's. Unfortunately I'm not on a computer so not sure if I can edit that image but I'll try.
That huge dip came from a MONSTER safrole bust in Cambodia I believe. I'll have to recheck the facts but pretty sure it happened in 2007. The amount of safrole seized and destroyed was enough to supply the whole world for YEARS. The piperazine/mephedrone era was the aftermath of this bust.
In a big nutshell..
80's- Type 1
90-Mid 90's- Type 2
Late 90's to late 2000's- Type 3
2010 to Present- Type 4
Now before I proceed remember these are generalizations.
Type 1 was likely very clean MDMA probably often from Al/Hg reduction, ketone often made in house from safrole.
Type 2 was semi clean MDMA made in Europe in massive batches (million doses at a time massive) via Leuckart reaction. Towards the end of this period labs went from making the ketone themselves to purchasing large amounts already made from China and elsewhere. Leuckart reaction seems to have produced a product with more stimulation hence the birth of dance culture and the absolute NEED to dance which isn't as apparent when looking at the other era's. Also the dosages for this period were strangely very low when comparing dosage to the effect given. 35-75mg would have people rolling hard for 4-6hrs..
The end of this era came from two possible variables or a combination of them both. -1) Labs went from synthesizing the ketone in house from safrole to purchasing large amounts from China and elsewhere. (A magazine at the time even wrote in an article how safrole mdma has more of a "natural rush" than from straight ketone, whatever that means.) -2) The Leuckart reaction fizzled out as other higher yielding cleaner methods took its place. This also happened because chemists other than speed manufacturers began making the drug, and the Leuckart is a common amphetamine synthesis. (The legendary oxblood is likely from the Leuckart.)
I'm not sure which variable causes the change but something did change and happen.
Type 3 marked an era of fairly clean MDMA probably synthesized in a manner similar to Type 1, the only problem is that ecstasy pills often had more adulterants than ever before. Meth/MDMA pills were more than common and harder to avoid. Dosages were also smaller than ever before too. Piperanol started to show its face more during this period of time as a replacement for safrole in certain regions. This period probably had the most variation as there were many small labs pumping out product all over the place. It was also during this period that the way MDMA was sold began to change, from pressed ecstasy tablets to pure powder/crystal.
Unfortunately we know fairly certainly how this era came to its end. The safrole bust in Cambodia in 2007. The full effect of this bust wasn't felt until 2009. Sadly this was when piperazines flooded the market and people in Europe took to mephedrone like flies to shit.
It was during this time that many labs probably came to the realization that another precursor must take safroles place. This is when piperanol and PMK glycidate began to take off. Piperanol is easier/safer to source and PMK glycidate is much easier than straight ketone to import. And with that Type 4 was born.
Type 4 is commonly found as both presses pills and crystal. The purity on average is probably lower than ever before simply because of the change in the way it's sold. Leaving impurities means more money for the seller because more weight, instead of selling per pill. Often it's made from PMK glycidate which is made from piperanol. Also it appears based on Glubras findings that the tartrate salt is being used over the HCl. It's apparent these changes negatively effected the MDMA experience but on the plus side things have been turning around in the last year or two as reports of good quality mdma start to surface once again from old timers who were labeled as "burnt out."
Now despite much of today's MDMA being made this way it should be noted that if synthesized and purified properly I doubt there's much of noticeable difference, unfortunately that's not the case and very few labs put out really pure product.
There you have it, that's the best rundown I can give.. I can't say I know the answers as to why but damn if there ain't a huge correlation between people's complaints that things have changed and actual changes in the synthesis.
Edit- To the guy asking about MDA... I'll say this. MDA is a rarity in parts of the world where PMK glycidate is most commonly used. Typically costing 2x more than MDMA. Many people in Europe have only tried MDA a few times. These areas also correlate with people's complaints.
Areas where MDA is common, it seems the complaints are less or nonexistent. For instance there's no crappy MDMA in my neck of the woods, but also MDA is even easier and cheaper to find. MDA around here, unless it's like glass purity, will run about 75% of the normal MDMA cost.
So it is my belief that where you find MDA plentifully you'll also find good quality MDMA. Likely due to synthetic factors, I don't think it's easy for European producers to alter their synth for MDA.
-GC
That huge dip came from a MONSTER safrole bust in Cambodia I believe. I'll have to recheck the facts but pretty sure it happened in 2007. The amount of safrole seized and destroyed was enough to supply the whole world for YEARS. The piperazine/mephedrone era was the aftermath of this bust.
In a big nutshell..
80's- Type 1
90-Mid 90's- Type 2
Late 90's to late 2000's- Type 3
2010 to Present- Type 4
Now before I proceed remember these are generalizations.
Type 1 was likely very clean MDMA probably often from Al/Hg reduction, ketone often made in house from safrole.
Type 2 was semi clean MDMA made in Europe in massive batches (million doses at a time massive) via Leuckart reaction. Towards the end of this period labs went from making the ketone themselves to purchasing large amounts already made from China and elsewhere. Leuckart reaction seems to have produced a product with more stimulation hence the birth of dance culture and the absolute NEED to dance which isn't as apparent when looking at the other era's. Also the dosages for this period were strangely very low when comparing dosage to the effect given. 35-75mg would have people rolling hard for 4-6hrs..
The end of this era came from two possible variables or a combination of them both. -1) Labs went from synthesizing the ketone in house from safrole to purchasing large amounts from China and elsewhere. (A magazine at the time even wrote in an article how safrole mdma has more of a "natural rush" than from straight ketone, whatever that means.) -2) The Leuckart reaction fizzled out as other higher yielding cleaner methods took its place. This also happened because chemists other than speed manufacturers began making the drug, and the Leuckart is a common amphetamine synthesis. (The legendary oxblood is likely from the Leuckart.)
I'm not sure which variable causes the change but something did change and happen.
Type 3 marked an era of fairly clean MDMA probably synthesized in a manner similar to Type 1, the only problem is that ecstasy pills often had more adulterants than ever before. Meth/MDMA pills were more than common and harder to avoid. Dosages were also smaller than ever before too. Piperanol started to show its face more during this period of time as a replacement for safrole in certain regions. This period probably had the most variation as there were many small labs pumping out product all over the place. It was also during this period that the way MDMA was sold began to change, from pressed ecstasy tablets to pure powder/crystal.
Unfortunately we know fairly certainly how this era came to its end. The safrole bust in Cambodia in 2007. The full effect of this bust wasn't felt until 2009. Sadly this was when piperazines flooded the market and people in Europe took to mephedrone like flies to shit.
It was during this time that many labs probably came to the realization that another precursor must take safroles place. This is when piperanol and PMK glycidate began to take off. Piperanol is easier/safer to source and PMK glycidate is much easier than straight ketone to import. And with that Type 4 was born.
Type 4 is commonly found as both presses pills and crystal. The purity on average is probably lower than ever before simply because of the change in the way it's sold. Leaving impurities means more money for the seller because more weight, instead of selling per pill. Often it's made from PMK glycidate which is made from piperanol. Also it appears based on Glubras findings that the tartrate salt is being used over the HCl. It's apparent these changes negatively effected the MDMA experience but on the plus side things have been turning around in the last year or two as reports of good quality mdma start to surface once again from old timers who were labeled as "burnt out."
Now despite much of today's MDMA being made this way it should be noted that if synthesized and purified properly I doubt there's much of noticeable difference, unfortunately that's not the case and very few labs put out really pure product.
There you have it, that's the best rundown I can give.. I can't say I know the answers as to why but damn if there ain't a huge correlation between people's complaints that things have changed and actual changes in the synthesis.
Edit- To the guy asking about MDA... I'll say this. MDA is a rarity in parts of the world where PMK glycidate is most commonly used. Typically costing 2x more than MDMA. Many people in Europe have only tried MDA a few times. These areas also correlate with people's complaints.
Areas where MDA is common, it seems the complaints are less or nonexistent. For instance there's no crappy MDMA in my neck of the woods, but also MDA is even easier and cheaper to find. MDA around here, unless it's like glass purity, will run about 75% of the normal MDMA cost.
So it is my belief that where you find MDA plentifully you'll also find good quality MDMA. Likely due to synthetic factors, I don't think it's easy for European producers to alter their synth for MDA.
-GC
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indigoaura
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indigoaura
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I have wondered the exact same thing. Flooding the market with bad MDMA creates a bad name for MDMA and discourages use. This is one reason I am surprised MAPS does not reply to emails about this. It is counter-productive to their research for bad MDMA to be floating around giving users long term comedowns. It does not contribute to good press. Although, I suppose, from another perspective, if the streets are flooded with bad MDMA, then that means the labs that are authorized to make good MDMA whenever it becomes legal will make more money.
In any case...it does seem like it could be deliberate.
Hilopsilo
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I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think the "mongy" MDMA has anything to do with longterm comedowns. Myself and many others I know have had experiences with MehDMA and while it isn't that great, its not necessarily bad either and doesn't give any more or less hangover/comedown than the good stuff. I've had "Molly" that was god knows what, as in 100% not MDxx period, and that stuff makes the MehDMA seem like a godsend. I don't believe its dangerous or anything, its just a shadow of what the true experience can and should be. Unless of course the MehDMA we've got ahold of is not the same that you're talking about (but we'll find out around this coming Wednesday).
Every story that I read on here of people with LTC, either they did WAY too MDMA (too often, redosing, massive doses, or all of the above), were also combing other drugs, maybe had some pre existing condition, or a combination of all those factors. Nobody has come on here saying they took 100mg of tested MDMA and now they're struggling with a LTC 9 months later. Even back in 90's when it was all good, there has got to be tons of people who did/still do have serious problems from doing way too much MDMA (not to mention an even less amount of information on the stuff), they just didn't have the internet communities we do now to share their stories and ask for help.
I wish they'd reply too, but as someone who didn't really believe til I felt it with my own body and mind, it really does seem like a bunch of burnt out ravers in here, especially early on (which is why I'd love for this discussion to transition into "What's wrong with some batches of MDMA", it negates that knee jerk response).
Hell, if we want to be taken seriously we should probably drop the term "mongy", which comes from a racist term used to describe someone with mental disability.
Every story that I read on here of people with LTC, either they did WAY too MDMA (too often, redosing, massive doses, or all of the above), were also combing other drugs, maybe had some pre existing condition, or a combination of all those factors. Nobody has come on here saying they took 100mg of tested MDMA and now they're struggling with a LTC 9 months later. Even back in 90's when it was all good, there has got to be tons of people who did/still do have serious problems from doing way too much MDMA (not to mention an even less amount of information on the stuff), they just didn't have the internet communities we do now to share their stories and ask for help.
I wish they'd reply too, but as someone who didn't really believe til I felt it with my own body and mind, it really does seem like a bunch of burnt out ravers in here, especially early on (which is why I'd love for this discussion to transition into "What's wrong with some batches of MDMA", it negates that knee jerk response).
Hell, if we want to be taken seriously we should probably drop the term "mongy", which comes from a racist term used to describe someone with mental disability.
spacejunk
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Glubrahnum said:
seems like a pretty elaborate scheme, but i don't know about it being an "excellent technique".
building an enormous - and highly profitable - clandestine lab designed to churn out inferior product..to disrupt the heroin market?
seems unlikely, to say the least.
i suspect that the reason is far more simple, and obvious. given the mystery surrounding the lacklustre mdma, and what causes them to be disappointing , i sincerely doubt it was manufactured that way intentionally.
PsychedelicSummer
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A friend recently tried nexus flipping with some MehDMA. 2C-B taken about 3,5 h after the MehDMA. Expected effects failed to appear, though the 2C-B was of a batch tried with good results previously. Only with repeated insufflated doses (more than 20 mg) did very slight psychedelia appear. Maybe a clue to what may be wrong with the MehDMA?
Hilopsilo
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Has it been reagent tested or anything more stringent?
While there is certainly this stuff that tests as perfectly good MDMA and ends up sucking, there is still just as much fake/adulterated "molly" on the market. I feel all reports in here need to at least confirm a reagent test, otherwise its sort of a different topic entirely.
I also wonder if this could be something bigger that is attempting to sully the good name of MDMA. If there would be any drug that would be feared it'd be MDMA.
Also I agree with a lot of what you said there Hilo. I tried stressing that before as well, people love to generalize and in this situation it's far to complicated to do so. I'd argue there's many different "variations" of MDMA batches out there, some amazing, some just ok, and some really nasty...
@PsychedelicSummer- I'm also curious if you tested? If you did then my next question is are you inferring that the MehDMA in some way blocked the effects of the 2cb? If yes, I find that fascinating and kind of backs up the impurity debate that possibly something is interfering with the binding of these drugs.
-GC
Also I agree with a lot of what you said there Hilo. I tried stressing that before as well, people love to generalize and in this situation it's far to complicated to do so. I'd argue there's many different "variations" of MDMA batches out there, some amazing, some just ok, and some really nasty...
@PsychedelicSummer- I'm also curious if you tested? If you did then my next question is are you inferring that the MehDMA in some way blocked the effects of the 2cb? If yes, I find that fascinating and kind of backs up the impurity debate that possibly something is interfering with the binding of these drugs.
-GC
PsychedelicSummer
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The MehDMA turned black with Marquis reagent. The 2C-B sort of prolonged the come down.
indigoaura
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That is really interesting about the 2CB. Doesn't 2CB bind to serotonin receptors as well? If the mehDMA has blocked the receptors, that would explain the lack of effect from the 2CB.
As for the LTC...plenty of people abused MDMA in the late 90s and early 2000s. I was in a pretty large group of frequent MDMA users. I just never heard of the kinds of complaints that seem to be commonplace now. You got the "Tuesday blues," and then you moved on. These extended, physical comedowns with odd neurological effects were not something that I ever heard about. And believe me, there was plenty of over use and mis use.
It is possible there is more than one thing going on here. Perhaps the newer synthesis methods produce inferior products and also leave undesirable contaminants that vary from batch to batch.
As for the LTC...plenty of people abused MDMA in the late 90s and early 2000s. I was in a pretty large group of frequent MDMA users. I just never heard of the kinds of complaints that seem to be commonplace now. You got the "Tuesday blues," and then you moved on. These extended, physical comedowns with odd neurological effects were not something that I ever heard about. And believe me, there was plenty of over use and mis use.
It is possible there is more than one thing going on here. Perhaps the newer synthesis methods produce inferior products and also leave undesirable contaminants that vary from batch to batch.
indigoaura
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I will add this too...
I always heard how the MDMA/2CB combo was supposed to be bomb. And, I tried on numerous occasions to mix the "sleepy" batch of MDMA that I have access to with 2CB. Any time I put that MDMA before the 2CB it was an awful experience. Not pleasant at all. Not fun. The only time I ever enjoyed the combo was when I reversed the order and took the 2CB first, followed by the sleepy MDMA. On that occasion, I actually felt like the sleepy MDMA felt better, and had more life. The drop off was not as intense, and it was an enjoyable experience.
I never thought about the possibility that something uncommon was going on with the combo. But looking at it with the insights of this conversation sheds new light.
I always heard how the MDMA/2CB combo was supposed to be bomb. And, I tried on numerous occasions to mix the "sleepy" batch of MDMA that I have access to with 2CB. Any time I put that MDMA before the 2CB it was an awful experience. Not pleasant at all. Not fun. The only time I ever enjoyed the combo was when I reversed the order and took the 2CB first, followed by the sleepy MDMA. On that occasion, I actually felt like the sleepy MDMA felt better, and had more life. The drop off was not as intense, and it was an enjoyable experience.
I never thought about the possibility that something uncommon was going on with the combo. But looking at it with the insights of this conversation sheds new light.
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