Oral DMT with MAOI: Should we follow dietary restrictions when using peganum harmala

[TheBlackPirate]

The Wikipedia article on MAOIs was recently updated and now says dietary restrictions aren't necesary with the reversible MAO-A kind.

Patients taking MAOIs generally need to change their diets to limit or avoid foods and beverages containing tyramine. If large amounts of tyramine are consumed, they may suffer hypertensive crisis, which can be fatal.[3] Examples of foods and beverages with potentially high levels of tyramine include liver and fermented substances, such as alcoholic beverages and aged cheeses.[25] (See a List of foods containing tyramine).

Tyramine leads to hypertensive crisis by increasing the release of norepinephrine (NE), which causes blood vessels to constrict (through binding to alpha-1 adrenergic receptors).[26] Ordinarily, MAO-A would destroy the excess NE. When MAO-A is inhibited, though, NE levels get too high, leading to dangerous increases in blood pressure.

Of note, no dietary modifications are needed when taking a reversible inhibitor of MAO-A (i.e., moclobemide) or low doses of selective MAO-B inhibitors (e.g., selegiline 6 mg/24 hours transdermal patch).[26][27][28]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor


Reversible MAOIs are safer in comparison with irreversible MAOIs. The recommendation dietary restrictions aren't necessary with reversible MAO-A ihibitors goes against the traditional knowledge I had. I did look at the available abstract of the study given as evidence in the Wikipedia article. The abstract doesn't explain how they reached the conclusion, the doses involved, or if the results were obtained from human subjects.

I looked at the Wikipedia entry on Harmine (a constituent of Syrian Rue). The article says, while less risky than other MAOIs, dietary precautions are an advisable measure.

, and plants containing significant amounts of harmine and other harmala alkaloids are generally not considered safe treatments for depression within the medical community. This bias however is primarily built on previous decades of experience with pharmaceutical non-specific MAOIs that block both MAO-A and MAO-B.[14] Inhibiting MAO-A or MAO-B (in high enough doses) while consuming foods rich in tyramine, e.g. cheese, can cause tyramine, ordinarily metabolized by these enzymes, to accumulate to dangerous levels. This can cause a potentially fatal hypertensive crisis. Because harmine reversibly and selectively inhibits MAO-A and does not degrade MAO-B, MAO-B remains free to metabolize tyramine in the digestive tract. Consequently, the harmala alkaloids (including harmine) are unlikely to elicit tyramine-mediated hypertensive crisis, and a special diet does not need to be so strictly adhered to. Nonetheless, due to the reduction of the levels of tyramine degrading compounds in the gut, it is still not advisable to eat excessively large amounts of tyramine-rich food products.[15] The reversibility and MAO-A selectivity of harmala alkaloids do not, however, prevent potentially fatal interactions with common medications such as antihistamines, most antidepressants, many stimulants, common migraine medications, some herbs, decongestants, expectorants, and common cough and cold medications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmine

 

[TheBlackPirate]

Could any of y'all get the full text of the study mentioned in this link?

 

[ColonelPanic]

I wouldn't risk it personally, I'd assume that regardless of which MAOI you're using the same dietary restrictions apply. Irreversible MAOIs are much rarer these days, particularly if one hoes down the pharmaceutical route.

 

[Incunabula]

Yes, but I don't think it's that big an issue really. Not that many people are going to feel like eating a lot of mouldy cheese in the middle of an ayahuasca trip anyway

I think alot of the dietary hype with ayahusaca comes from amazonian indian tradition, because they would fast or stick to a special diet for days before taking it, but I don't think it's strictly neccesary. I mean, if you're going to purge from ayahusca, it probably is nice to not have a lot of undigested meat in your stomach. So it's probably more a question of comfort.

The real dangerous thing to avoid is medicine (like SSRI's) and other drugs, like stimulants.

The wiki might have been recently edited, but the part about RIMA's and dietary restrictions has been there all along, for years at least. Nothing new here really.

 

[Weltmeister]

I have used Syrian rue extracts for half a year now on a daily basis (ceased use 2 - 3 days before using other drugs but continued after) and i never experienced a bad reaction with any food. Ive also read of numerous people on the nexus that use rue or caapi pretty regulary. Harmala alkaloids (so the ones in caapi and rue) are revserible and selective for MAO-A which makes them much safer. The dietary restrictions apply to the old unselective irreversible MAOIs.

If you avoid mixing it with other drugs youre fine. This also applies to legal drugs tho especially caffeine.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

I recommend people keep utilizing the MAOI diet when taking peganum harmala (aka syrian rue). I utilize an MAOI diet several days before and after any MAOI use.

I haven't located any peer reviewed study proving nor-disproving the necessity of dietary restrictions with peganum harmala specifically. Each persons body and diet is different. A few people on an Internet forum claiming they didn't have negative effects at the dose they took doesn't guaranteeing other people won't. Other people could take larger doses and/or have different metabolisms. I think precaution is in order.

With any activity we look at the cost benefit ratio. In this situation the cost is recommending people avoid a few foods a few days. This is extremely easy. The benefit is avoiding potentially fatal adverse reactions and keeping novice users safe.

This is easy and logical. Utilize the MAOI diet with peganum harmala as a precaution. Avoiding a few foods is easy and cost nothing. The benefit is guaranteeing people live.

 

[Shamandrums]

The huge list of dietary, herbal, medicinal restrictions are extensive & with or without use of other MAOI's, I find no benefit in trying to reduce the importance due to the use of Peganum Harmala of these discretion's. Likewise, after a massive amount of research, I could not locate any proper study that simply stated, due to the substitute of Banisteriopsis caapi vine that *this was suggested.

In private discussions with Shamans of Peru, I simply would say, respect Ayahuasca. As TBP related, it costs nothing to eat the prescribed diet, as well as avoiding herbs & drugs that complicate, at best, the beautiful & living to tell the tale of it.

It may be important to get there, but as much, if not more important to come back.

 

[just say know]

I haven't followed the strict no-tyramine diet yet personally but large doses of caffeine gives me headaches that don't go away for a bit

 

[CZ-741]

I recommend people keep utilizing the MAOI diet when taking peganum harmala (aka syrian rue). I utilize an MAOI diet several days before and after any MAOI use. I haven't located any peer reviewed study proving nor-disproving the necessity of dietary restrictions with peganum harmala specifically. Each persons body and diet is different. A few people on an Internet forum claiming they didn't have negative effects at the dose they took doesn't guaranteeing other people won't. Other people could take larger doses and/or have different metabolisms. I think precaution is in order. With any activity we look at the cost benefit ratio. In this situation the cost is recommending people avoid a few foods a few days. This is extremely easy. The benefit is avoiding potentially fatal adverse reactions and keeping novice users safe. This is easy and logical. Utilize the MAOI diet with peganum harmala as a precaution. Avoiding a few foods is easy and cost nothing. The benefit is guaranteeing people live.

Tend to agree. If one MAO subtype is blocked, the other may get busier with amines that have low preference. It may not be necessary to restrict the diet for days before hand. IMHO, 12 hours before and after should be enough.

 

[Spirit Molecule]

I always stick to a plant based diet before my changa/DMT ceremonial experience.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Diet shouldn't be a problem with harmaline - the problem occasionally arouse with medical irreversibles. I and other have had banned foods and Jonathon Ott went out of his way to test safety - however for peace of mind there is no harm in roughly avoiding some items; for a start an empty stomach and no alcohol hangover are a pretty good starting point for psilohuasca, ayahuasca etc. for a number of reasons.