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is attempting moderation foolish?

this is an awesome thread. so much interesting stuff.

thought i'd throw one thing into the mix. i think the extent to which you can be a casual user after addiction has a lot to do with what led you to addiction in the first place. In the 1970s there was a study on heroin addiction. The researchers looked at two populations: soldiers who got addicted to heroin during the Vietnam War vs. people who got addicted stateside, during the course of their day-to-day lives. (There's some nice info on the study here http://www.rkp.wustl.edu/VESlit/RobinsAddiction1993.pdf). the interesting part is what they found: the stateside addicts struggled and struggled to control their using. on the other hand, when GI's got back to the US, most of them went back to their civilian lives, leaving the dope habit back in the jungle. the usual takeaway from the study is that both of these populations were using heroin to self-medicate. but they were medicating different problems. the soldiers largely reported starting the drugs to reduce the stress of war. the junkies back home had started for some reason that, presumably, was implicated in their daily lives.

all this is to say, as i've struggled (for months now) with an on-again off-again dope habit, i've really come to believe that most of us are using addiction to some personal/psychological end. what that underlying problem is must, i think, have a lot to do with what life after addiction looks like.
 
Very, very good contribution! I completely agree - once I was able to change how my day to day life affected me, it became much, much easier to moderate my use in healthy, responsible ways such that the degree to which it interfered with my day to day life was reduced and has pretty much been eliminated. Great pdf too, awesome to have a link to that as opposed to just the hard copy I have in a text :) Thank you!
 
There is commonly two cited end points addicts face when dealing with an addiction: quitting or dying (or getting locked up)

But isn't there a third option: just doing less of whatever it is that you're doing?

For some people for whom environmental factors play a large role in their abusive relationship towards a substance, I think this has worked sometimes. Speaking personally, I used to abuse alcohol very regularly, my roommate and I would usually drink at least a fifth of Jack Daniels every night (which isn't as much as some severe alcoholics, but that's still quite a bit of liquor to drink regularly). Now I still allow myself a drink every now and then, but it doesn't even come anywhere close to what my drunkenness used to be...I can't even remember the last time I got "drunk".

Alcohol was never my "drug of choice", though. I just question the orthodoxy of "once abused, you can never touch it again".
 
As you can see, many different opinions here. There was a time, after I got clean for four years, that I entertained moderation. I remember trying buprenorphine just a couple times, then nubain. I used only every so often. I truly planned it out. I had been planning it out for many years. I stayed away from the drugs that had given me problems before - heroin and cocaine. I even left benzos, which I really needed. I just messed around with nubain for a while, working out at the gym. It actually helped ease the pain of working out, the gym got my serotonin up and I did not develop an addiction. (Warning: I recommend strongly against nubain as a drug to use, especially for working out it can be seriously dangerous since you won't realize when you pull certain muscles, etc.) However, the problem was not so much that I used once, relapsed, and started all over again as a helpless addict. In fact I was able to moderate. I was not spending all my $$$. It was true moderation. In fact, the money I spent was small time. And I didn't increase my dosage. The real problem was that it was that I was picking up the keys again. Just the keys. I now had access to almost every drug. By gaining access to one drug, you often gain access to other drugs, whether wanted to not, I don't have to preach to the choir on this one I think. So I began experimenting with bupe more often. And then I ordered vicodin, benzos. It was still in control as I didn't really use the drugs I had. But I had the keys. When I realized this, I made a tough decision - throw away my entire stash, which cost me a lot of dough, or stick with the guilt and possibility that I was becoming an addict all over again. I threw away my stash. Then recovered it. I think it took almost three tries. I then threw everything away except a few needles.

I quit the whole nubain thing and got into the gym. I kept clean for another 4 years. I recorded some music on my own time and finally decided to get into the music business. I was largely ignored by my agent, so I decided to form a group. I met someone. I will not blame this person for my true second relapse, but the truth is, in the music world, you need to be careful. There are addicts all around. If you live in NJ, check the music ads in Steppin' Out. Many now mention that the musician applying be clean. And they are dead serious. The reasons for this are manifold, mostly because addicts are unreliable. But also because bringing drugs into the music world - it then all becomes about the drugs. You give up on your passion. And the music industry is not seeking wanna-be artists who are full-time drug addicts. Not to my knowledge. So yea, I relapsed. After the relapse, I played. Then I stopped. Then I had to stop. For a while I couldn't even play my instruments, psychologically. I needed a serious break. Then I moved back to it. I wrote over 10 songs, these songs becoming nearly 30 songs. I'm now on my way to a second copyrighted album. The drugs sucked away maybe only 1 1/2 to 2 years, but really took away more albeit racking up clean time.

I've made a few pacts with myself in the meantime though. No hard drugs. Ever again. And this part I hate to admit but crack I will never touch. I now know why CA (cocaine anonymous) exists, but Heroin Anonymous doesn't. Coke takes and takes. Psychologically, it's just so touch to quite once you get on it, and the $$$... (I've heard similar stories about meth, don't know if they are true or not as I've never been but they seem just the same). I just don't want to think about it, that is, using (even though I am writing a memoir about drug addiction I do not like to spend my time 'entertaining the thought'). FYI 'Entertaining the thought' is a quote I stole from an early NA meeting I went to - probably the best meeting I ever went to. A bunch of old timers with 20+ minimum clean time on their hands and they're talking about driving down to Newark to buy some more dope. Like they really meant it, too. One dude told this story - I think he had 30 years clean time but it went something like one year ago he was thinking of smoking marijuana. He debated it forever and then finally decided not to because his relative, who had massive clean time, began acting like an idiot. I believe he said, "he did not want to go back there." I was young at the time, but I get it - you don't want something negative in your life again.

As for alcohol being a drug of choice. I saw this movie where a Catholic priest, who used to be a heavy drug user, explains to his friend that he has clean time but drinks booze and cigarettes to get by. The other guy says, "Didn't you do NA?" He says, "I said, NA, not AA. I do what I can to get by."

Peace,

mandraxx
 
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everyones path is different. Everyone's code of conduct is unique. Everyone's value system is distinct, though they mostly share a lot of similarities.

I go to a meeting once in a blue moon because people sometimes need to be in a room with a bunch of people that understand what is going on and can give you some guidance as to what to do next.
 
FYI Mandraxx Heroin Ananymous does exist though it doesn't seem to be as popular as cocaine Ananymous.
 
I think moderation can work but only once you have developed a deep and genuine conviction that you don't actually need it in your life, that your life has purpose and direction, is worth living as it is, sober. Of course once you reach that point there is little use for substances anyway. But I believe a person can use again so long as they are very conscious of their thought process, especially post-substance intake.. that is when you are vulnerable and you get intrusion of thoughts trying to convince you to use again, or that facing sober reality is a drag. If you can catch yourself and not succumb to those thoughts, then use becomes possible.. but I think you will always be playing with fire.. because your previous pattern of use etches pathways in your brain or mind that act as channels, just waiting to be re-activated. Beating any substance use should humble a person, and they should concede that using again is a foolish game to play when they have their life back in their hands and not in that of a substance.

Really think it helps to see any substance as a kind of conscious entity in its own right, and that substance use is like a business arrangement.. one which you are always losing and getting ass fucked by the substance. You are actually paying to be ass fucked! You are being robbed blind, again, and again, and again.

So yes, I think 'attempting moderation' is foolish. The phrase itself actually sounds like an excuse for simply pretending to engage in virtuous behavior, knowing full well that your use is just a little more spaced out over time and that your thought patterns/being has not actually changed.

Oh and definitely avoid alcohol. That bastard in particular makes you so mentally vulnerable.
 
Great discussion.

I can't moderate with stims. I will keep using them until they are gone, even go to sleep on them. So I definitely restrict myself to a small supply on the rare occasion that I use any stims, and then the crash is so barbaric that it keeps me away again. (This is just me.)

However when I use psychs I don't need to moderate, as I don't seem to suffer any bad consequences when I'm using them every other weekend and the occasional weekday.

I do much better when I'm not smoking marijuana habitually, since it always puts me in the mood to use stims. However, psychs get me in the mood to use marijuana (which gets me in the mood for stims). And of course, when I use stims, I use benzos to keep me down.

Yep -- I can't moderate well either.
 
Normally I would say moderation doesn't work bc of my time in recovery which requires complete abstinence. That's why I left AA. I take a lot of prescribed medication including Kolonopin and pain meds. I do fine with them. I think it depends on so many factors. If one drug is your prob, def stay away and if you're the type who gobbles up everything, moderation won't work but as an addict myself I take my pills as prescribed so I think it just depends. If you think you can moderate, try it. That will be the acid test. It's hard for anyone to say you can or can't moderate. Just my opinion. Good luck to you!!
 
Psychedelic drugs are pretty much self-moderating IME. They're just really difficult to abuse & consistently get enjoyment
 
Psychedelic drugs, difficult to abuse? I dunno about that. Tell that to a certain type of hippie scene follower or net.drugs.kid, lol. They're certainly not self-reinforcing and addictive in the same sense as "hard drugs" are, but the habit of and compulsion to regularly alter one's consciousness with them can be quite an immoderate addiction, with rather unfortunate consequences for the addict's relationship with reality...
 
The only thing I can moderate is my benzo usage. I medically need them to help with my diagnosis'. I don't especially like taking them because I feel like I have lost one of the key abilities that made me an amazing chef....the ability to comprehend everything that is happening in the kitchen and on the floor of the restaurant all at once.

I most definitely cannot moderate any other drugs. If I drink, I drink to get smashed, if I smoke pot, I smoke everyday. If I use opiates I am right back to the needle....

I think if you use an addictive substance for any length of time you will always have that itch to use in an addictive manner. It may start that you use once and are sitting there congratulating yourself for not immediately following it up with use, but it all leads to the same place for those that are like me.
 
I said "difficult to abuse", not "impossible to abuse". There are certainly people who abuse psychedelics but they're probably a very low percentage of overall users.
 
I dunno. I've seen more than enough abusers of psychedelics both in my time in the IRL scene and right here on Bluelight. Some of them might not identify as abusers/addicts, doesn't mean they're not. It's a particularly insidious kind of addiction because it's very often wrapped up in seeking some kind of spiritual mysteries or chasing some idea of self improvement via drug use but is really more and more about distancing oneself from reality, and escape. Ketamine is particularly problematic and the addiction to it is rather a different phenomenon that abuse/addiction to, say, LSD or other classical psychedelics and novelties, but the latter still a very real phenomenon.

Particularly in our scene the mania for trying novel chemical after novel chemical is a sort of addiction in itself, even if it's more an addiction to novelty as such more than any particular drug. In a certain type of person the compulsion to alter one's consciousness by whatever means is strong in and of itself.

As someone around here said recently, "I don't know if addictive personalities exist, but if they do, I have one," and I couldn't possibly agree more with regards to myself. My first love was heroin and whatever pharmies I could get my hands on, around the same time I got deeply involved with LSD and the hippie circuit and eventually the net.drugs.scene and research chemicals and what not, then on to the mentality of gotta try them all and the rather pointless, self-defeating but oh so self-reinforcing quest for gaining something mentally or spiritually by getting utterly knackered on serotonergics or dissociatives, and that was very much an addiction even if not in the classical sense.

I'd guess that well more than half of the relevant part of Bluelight (viz. the forum I used to moderate :p) has the same problem even if they don't see it as a problem. Plus the fact that very few people get deep into the psychedelic scene without winding up with a problem with either opiates, benzos, or ketamine (again, go ask PD.) There's some relationship there for sure. But anyway in autobiographical terms eventually I moved on from hard drugs and trippy drugs both to become an alcoholic, which is arguably worse than either but oh so much more socially acceptable, and yeah, I can't really moderate that either. So it goes.
 
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manboychef said:
The only thing I can moderate is my benzo usage. I medically need them to help with my diagnosis'. I don't especially like taking them because I feel like I have lost one of the key abilities that made me an amazing chef....the ability to comprehend everything that is happening in the kitchen and on the floor of the restaurant all at once.

I most definitely cannot moderate any other drugs. If I drink, I drink to get smashed, if I smoke pot, I smoke everyday. If I use opiates I am right back to the needle....

I think if you use an addictive substance for any length of time you will always have that itch to use in an addictive manner. It may start that you use once and are sitting there congratulating yourself for not immediately following it up with use, but it all leads to the same place for those that are like me.
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It's funny, I never had what one might call the stereotypical relationship with heroin to begin with, but I don't have any urge to use it. The idea of using it, and everything that is involved in using it, scares me. And not in the sense of my being afraid of addiction or something. It scares me in the sense it would be an entirely unenjoyable experience. Iono, don't get me wrong, part of that "fear" surrounding the idea of my use of heroin at some point in the future is certainly tied to the potential of addiction to frighten. That I think is related to the knowledge that the only circumstances I'd even begin to consider the idea of using, unpleasant as the entire experience of copping and using would be overall for me (which I know it would be because of past experience), would be if it was the only thing I could get my hands on because my prescribed medicine isn't available. So what really scares me there is the reasons that my prescribed medicine wouldn't be available in the scenario where I consider using dope. LOL I'm beginning to confuse myself.

Point being, even the idea of using heroin these days is simply disgusting. All of it I mean. So I'm not interested in trying to moderate that drug, but primarily on the grounds that I'm not interested in using it to begin with :D I'm only interested in trying to moderate the use of drugs I like, and that doesn't somehow mean those are only the drugs I was or am addicted to. I'm not interested in trying to moderate a drug I was addicted to for what may be obvious reasons, and by definition if I am presently addicted to a drug then it would be pointless to try and moderate my use of it. But there are lot of drugs I love that I try and seem to have been successful in moderating my use of. It's a core sometimes, and when it ever has become one that is the sign that I need to give it a rest, if only for a significant while.

The closest I'll get to considering dope enjoyable will be in my dreams - and my using dreams only seem to involve hydromorphone for some odd reason (I very, very rarely used that, and never particularly sought it out or enjoyed it either, though it did get the job done), so I'm good %)
 
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I usually got a hell of a lot higher on my way to the dopehole with a handful of money than when I actually did the shot. The shot was usually a let down and extremely anticlimactic after all the loopholes one must jump through to successfully use dope.

For me, I am a balls to the walls user. If I like it I binge. If I really like it years pass....

I feel ya toothpastedog. Whenever I think about going back all of the bad memories far outweigh anything positive I ever felt from using. Times in the hospital with blood infections....getting beat on sacks and having to go sick. Having to fight to keep what I had. Having a bag of coke break open in my mouth and getting really sick.....those thoughts come first....then as like an afterthought my addict brain says hey a speedball would be nice. I'd rather just not deal with the rest of it for that five minutes of glory that my brain has talked me into thinking is the most amazing thing since sliced bread.
 
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