• TDS Moderators: AlphaMethylPhenyl | Eligiu | deficiT

Mental Health Psychiatric Treatments Debate vs trot out your medications bias and lemme at it

Just started doing some research on my antipsychotic meds and I'm shocked to find out that tardive dyskinesia is thought to occur in 15% - 30% of long-term antipsychotic users! I thought the number would be like 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10 000. I'm surprised that I wasn't even warned about this risk when prescribed the medication. I'm seriously considering stopping it regardless of what my doctor says because the potential side effects are worse than my original symptoms.

I'm not against medication in general though. I tried stopping my antidepressant and decided that I feel better on it so I started taking it again. But the risk of tardive dyskinesia is very disappointing to me when I think about how easily some of these antipsychotics are being prescribed.
 
Full transparency here - my partner has worked in big pharma for almost 30 years as a research chemist and is highly respected and regarded across the country in his area of expertise. Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, please know that 90% of big pharma employees go to work every morning (or afternoon or evening), with the hope that whatever they do will eventually make a difference in someone's life for the better. Some of my partner's work has definitely saved lives - granted the company he worked for didn't really do much with psychotropic drugs. My partner loves his work as do most of his peers. We hosted a 'celebration' party one year for all of my partner's direct reports the day a drug that was decades in the making was approved by the FDA and is now saving lives. We live in a society where health care is part of capitalism; until this changes, a small number of big pharma executives will always be looking at the bottom dollar - they are held accountable to their shareholders, which is unfortunate. But the majority of the employees only want to make peoples' lives better, and it's a challenge given the regulations imposed on them by the FDA (which I fully support... there should be regulations) and other agencies.

This all being said, I developed severe treatment-resistant depression in 2012 after spending many, many years doing true psychotherapy for anxiety and depression. My understanding of my issues is crystal clear - lots of very early childhood trauma (medical trauma, which is just now really starting to become recognized as being severely overlooked by most health care providers). Most of my adult life, an SSRI kept my anxiety and depression under control... until it pooped out. Then we went through I can't remember how many other medication trials in different classifications, and nothing worked. I tried TMS... nope, didn't work. So I finally agreed to ECT after telling my partner I wanted to jump out of the car as he was driving me to the ER. And ECT changed my life. I was also given a dose of ketamine just prior to going under my first two ECT treatments; I was at a major teaching hospital and was told there is solid evidence that ECT, in conjunction with ketamine has far quicker results. And I was put on a different, old-school medication (Pamelor) after ECT because it is shown to work well in continued stabilization of patients who have undergone ECT. But I was feeling so well, I never really upped the Pamelor to a therapeutic range (50 mg./day, and blood tests showed I was not in therapeutic range) because things were going well. I put all the weight back on I'd lost when I sort of quit living due to the depression, and I was able to easily get off the Xanax I was on for anxiety within a few weeks. I totally re-engaged in life and it was all good.

So my bias is, there are times to try medications, especially when therapy has been seriously engaged in, but someone's anxiety and depression are still life-limiting. I've often described my experience as a lesson in extremes... I was absolutely terrified of dying (debilitating anxiety does that to you), yet wanted to die so that I wasn't suffering anymore. Try to wrap your mind around living like that. I have had moments like that in the last two months (afraid of dying, but thinking it might be the only way out of the suffering), but due to a relocation, I'm having to start over with new psychiatrist and therapist. I told my new psychiatrist at my first visit that, at some point, I might be willing to reconsider ECT again.. it made that much of a difference. My current crisis is due to a lot of PTSD that has happened to me in the last 18 months. My body is rebelling and I have new chronic health conditions coming up due to the stress. I don't think I should give trying new/different medications another almost two years (like I did the first time around before waiting to try ECT) and spending those two years in misery.

I know for a fact that my anxiety is rooted in very early childhood trauma that I have no memory of; as my infant mind was being formed and influenced during times of major medical crisis, it set up my nervous system to adapt in ways that I never quite figured out until this last year. I've been told that, even though I don't remember these events because it was during my pre-verbal years, my body does, and that's why my body reacts the way it does. At 58 years old, I don't know if I can ever retrain my nervous system so that the anxiety goes away. My nerves are constantly on edge given my recent PTSD despite trying all the CBT tools.

Regarding psychiatrists... I have been very fortunate. When I began to fall apart in 2011, my current psychiatrist was of the '15-minute medication management appointment' approach. My internist referred me to a new psychiatrist who is trained to also do psychiatry. I saw her as often as I deemed necessary to stay safe, and they were 50-minute appointments, not 15-minute medication management appointments. She, along with my therapists had been trying to plant the seed for years that I needed to consider my anxiety as an adult in the context of what happened to me as an infant/toddler, but I wasn't willing to internalize that until I did a week-long experiential workshop a year ago... then it became crystal clear. With our relocation, I was terrified that I'd never find another psychiatrist that operated on the same model as my most recent psychiatrist. But my new internist made a recommendation to someone who I think will do this. I have my second appt. with her this afternoon. I am willing to start tweaking a few meds (going up on the Pamelor). I have also been on various dosages of Remeron - lower doses because it's supposed to help with sleep and appetite (it worked for sleep, but not for appetite, so I continued to lose weight), then higher dosages to help with depression. I'm ready to taper off it and perhaps just up the Pamelor, or add another AD. But in the end, I won't spend two years like I did before, knowing that ECT worked so well for me. Actually some studies have shown that anti-depressants that pooped out once before, if given a lengthy vacation, can be tried again, and can work again.

So I think everyone needs to find a path that works for them, and try not to be so closed-minded about various treatments based on anecdotal evidence (including my own here).
 
I'm here as a lifetime consumer of psychiatric products and services. Let me first trot out my medications:


400 mg. Abilify Maintena once a month injection for mood stabilization and psychotic features.
5 mg per day Abilify oral tablets (to augment the injection)
1800 mg per day gabapentin for agitation and anxiety
20 mg per day Lexapro (escitalopram) for depression
15 mg per day Artane (trihexiphenadyl) for side effects of the Abilify
20 mg per day Inderal (propranolol) for anxiety and resultant tachycardia
100 mg trazodone for sleep.


My psychiatrist will not prescribe stimulants or benzodiazepines under any circumstances. He is very conservative but still seems to overmedicate in order to relieve all symptoms I verbalize to him. He was inclined to prescribe the monthly shot of Abilify because in his experience (which is substantial - he was a internal medicine doctor before he became a psychiatrist) most patients do not take their medications on a regular basis. I was inclined to try the shot because I was informed that the monthly shot was followed by an increased relief of symptoms and better outcomes than oral AP alone, due more stable blood levels of the chosen AP. The Abilify shot is the first monthly shot sanctioned by the FDA as a safe and effective medication for the maintenance of bipolar disorder. I am slow to accept psychiatric diagnoses (labels) as they are presented at the clinical level. This has been resounded multiple times on this thread - that the labels practitioners use are faulty at best and fraudulent at the very worst. Many of the disorders used at the clinical level have overlapping symptomologies in the DSM. I have had bipolar, schizoaffective, and schizophrenia diagnoses during my lifetime. It has been my opinion that the most prescribers do not do the research into patient history in order to come up with a realistic and accurate diagnosis. Fortunately for most patients, the medications prescribed will treat a variety of these "labels" - and then it is a matter of trial and error to find a regimen which works for the patient. I have seen research which suggests that many people with "bipolar disorder" suffer for almost a decade on average before finding a medication which addresses the problem symptoms without causing side-effects which help to drive the patient towards non-compliance. Side effects which I and others I know have had to deal with on a daily basis are weight gain, muscle tremor and rigidity, somnolence, agitation, Parkinson's-like symtoms, memory problems -- the list goes on practically indefinitely.


So, as medications go, I believe that the medications have gotten better since initially being diagnosed and there has been significant research supporting the use of atypical antipsychotics in mood disorders and psychotic disorders. I believe that these medications are essential to mental health recovery and are only the first step in a series of activities which help mental health consumers see tangiable recovery in their lives. Recovery from mental illness is a process which for me included medication and stabilization as a first step and then requires a lifetime of holistic recovery practices. The medications themselves are not fix-all's - they are there to allow mental health consumers to begin to structure their lives in a manner which will precipitate mental health recovery.
 
Last edited:
again...

can't we all just get a bong!

(i know, it doesn't work for all symptoms, just had to throw it in there)

seriously though, meds either work or they don't. the stigma goes both ways when even one side feeds into it, if both do then things get more complicated.

i'm for finding what works no matter what that looks like.

so when i hear people praising meds i think good for them and stop selling it.

when i hear people condemning them i think sorry you didn't get one that works well, try again if you want to.

either way it's all legitimate drugs and that's a win too.

cause i'm incompetent like that.
 
I know that OP said to keep our discussions non-personal, but I can't really talk about this story without getting personal so I'm sorry in advance and feel free to delete my reply, but I feel like this might help some people.

I used to have severe depression along with bipolar disorder, IED and early stages of schizophrenia, I tried killing myself which ultimately landed me in a psychiatric hospital, since I live in Eastern-Europe it was more of an asylum than a hospital, with the intent of just keeping us away from the outside world instead of curing us, I was 17 at the time and was put in a section that underage people shouldn't even haven known exists, let alone be in one, so it was rough, but in there they started giving me all kinds of different pills (to this day I don't know what most of what they gave me was), the first month they just fed me so many pills that I was just braindead, which kept me from doing anything I shouldn't have done in there (so it worked in a way), I was so braindead that it took me 5 days to learn a persons name whenever a new guy was brought in, then they started experimenting with different anti-depressants, I personally never felt that I got any better except that I learned to somewhat keep my IED under control, eventually after 3 months they released me, since I was underage they wanted me out of there as soon as possible, I took anti-depressants and benzos for 2 years after that, experimenting with different dosages and different anti-depressants with my doctor, but it never had any effect on me. So after 2 years of no change my mother eventually suggested that I go visit a hypnotiser, might as well right? I was very sceptical since I don't belive in such methods, but my mother told me that this man has actually cured people's depressions before, so I went in optimistically, I'm not going to go into the details of the process but after it was over I cried on that mans couch for 2 hours straight, I hadn't been able to cry for 2 years, not even when I was alone, not to even talk about crying in front of a stranger, I cried like a bitch, I cried out all the sadness and anger that had built up inside me for those 2 years, I learned to love myself again, which is what was necessary for curing my depression, soon after that I went cold turkey on the anti-depressants in the span of 3 days (the doctor told me to lower the dosages during 3 months before ending it completely, which I ignored) the doctor feared that it would have severe effect on my mental health but ultimately, besides being light-headed and vomiting a little for a week, I had no drawbacks, which in turn showed even more that the anti-depressants had no effect on me, besides a couple of IED outbursts a year and light ADHD, I am fully cured of any mental illnesses now and am fully functional in everyday life, so I encourage anyone who doesn't get help from pills (whatever pills they may be) to try out some unconventional methods like hypnotizing, even if you don't belive in such things, the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work, but it worked for me and saved me from very deep and dark hole.
Apologies for any grammar errors, english is not my first language.
Cheers!
 
By all means, anyone who can afford something like CBT or other forms of therapy, go for it I'd say! Don't forget this also means you are rather privileged and lucky. Not many options out there if you have mental illness that prevents you from having such a large income that you can actually afford to see a proper therapist. This is where I find medications exceptionally helpful. It sucks much less to be alone and medicated than to just be alone and mentally ill, suffering from panic attacks or what have you. Most if not all medications have nasty side-effects on top of limited efficacy too, so it's not like they're perfect. Surely psychiatric medication doesn't have to be viewed in a very black and white, yes or no manner? In the end, I think it should be up to the individual to decide whether he/she wants to relieve for example panic attacks through the means of medication like benzos or something else.
 
@jorks It makes sense that the anti-depressants made you braindead. A lot of antidepressants are actually just antipsychotics but at lower doses... So if they were giving you high doses of antidepressants then that's just like treating you for a severe case of psychosis, which no doubt causes "brain fog" as I call it. Sorry you went through that. The mental health care system in Eastern Europe sounds scary.

I am curious, jorks... You said you have healed completely from your depression and suffer from no more mental illnesses, so what brings you to this forum x years after your recovery?
 
"Rebecca Riley. Diagnosed as bipolar at age 3. Dead at age 4. Her psychiatrist is still practising. "

Crazy that Rebecca's parents both were locked up. As if it was their fault their child was being medicated to the point of death? That doctor should have been struck off. A tragic story that hopefully won't ever be repeated.
 
Crazy that Rebecca's parents both were locked up. As if it was their fault their child was being medicated to the point of death? That doctor should have been struck off. A tragic story that hopefully won't ever be repeated.

It is repeated every day. Only the victims can be aged 23, 44, 54, 76, 12, 8, etc
 
My bias is regarding Lithium treatment for Bipolar Type II. That the well known long-term damage outweighs the treatment’s benefits.
 
Personal anecdote and some pro medication and some anti medication. Now I will explain it.

Living in a Island in the Caribbean that is hostage by the United State empire are way of live is an hybrid between our Latin roots and americanization. We have a very similar health system, same medications and practices. I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder went I was 19 or 20, has you may know bipolar disorder is almost have been proven to be a physiological mental disorder. I did believe it until I got a serious case of hypomania that need it treatment. Know I use my mood stabilizer as a prevention to other phases, and having a good list of meds for helping me went I need some help. Benzo (clonazepam), amphetamine and ambien are use in very rare occasion (well, amphetamine can be use more regularly). I go to a really good psychiatrist, she is wonderful because she is the type of medic that have a motto that is "with the less medication possible is better". She told me that if she follow the guidelines with me she need to increase the amount of my mood stabilizer, put me on an antipsychotic and an antidepressant. She say to me that over medication is an institutional problem because of the control of the market in drug production, that capital most lip flowing, that's heath care under capitalism.

Medication is extremely important in this society. ADD exist, but is false diagnosed especially to children. Depression exist, just not every body is depress just because of lack of neurotransmitter, it can be by his surroundings and by his life. Medication have turn into a very profitable merchandising under the market in capitalist societies. And you see it in the over medication in the psychiatry practice very acute.

We need to take back the power to the people and separate medical practices from the silly institutions and games of the market.

*Power to the proletariat*
 
I'm pro choice. I believe patients have a right to refuse medication, despite what courts and doctors dictate. I also believe people who legitimately need the medication to thrive shouldn't be judged.
 
I fucking hate the new trend of psychiatrists throwing out antipsychotics just to treat things like anxiety despite their risks (including "cardiac events" and "sudden death") just to avoid using benzos. Apparently it's better to be dead than to have to possibly worry about withdrawing from benzos? Fucking insane I tell you.

My experience with psychiatry made me lose my faith in it. I used to trust psychiatrists as experts and think they had answers. Throughout my adult life I saw three different psychiatrists and got three totally different diagnoses and different meds thrown at me indiscriminately often with no warning about their dangers or side effects.

Eventually I did my own research into everything then all I did was learn to say the right stuff so I at least got the meds I wanted. And now I am actually fairly stable.
 
I disagree with the sentiment that Americans on whole have a problem with overuse of prescription drugs. We surely are pharmas best market as we, for the most part, do not have socialized healthcare. But this means there are many more me-too drugs within all therapeutic classes, not necessarily more treatment options. If you are diabetic or suffered a myocardial infarction, you will no doubt be on a cocktail of drugs if you live in the UK or USA. In America, though, a physician may choose among 10 or so ACE inhibitors for prevention of complications of diabetes, while in other countries they may be limited to one or two.

But psychiatry and its pharmacological treatments are different. I hold many of the same views as herbavore. Once things like antidepressants, started going mainstream and the stigma of psychiatric care decreased, I believe psychiatrists finally felt they could be seen in the same light as their fellow medical peers. But once this ball got rolling, there was no stopping it. We have seen an astronomical rise in what are considered psychiatric diseases and are quick to throw drugs at anyone of them without proper evidence of their efficacy. Signs and symptoms are either vague or overlapping that misdiagnosis and thus mistreatment is all too common, as in the case of this poor little girl above. It is sad when this occurs in the adult population, but downright tragic when we subject children to the horrors these drugs can cause.

The first generation of children widely prescribed drugs for psych conditions are now becoming young adults. It saddens me that many of them cannot or will not evaluate themselves and decide if treatment is still needed simply because they do not know life without drugs. I hope that the long term use of psychoactive therapies will not have negative effects but I doubt this to be true.

I know many smart scientists are trying to pin down the physiological and neurological causes of things like depression and anxiety, but we arent there yet. We need to reserve these drugs for the patients who will benefit the most, not just the ones who may benefit without doing the hard work of counseling and self growth.

The UK NHS is paid for by the taxpayer like the Armed Forces, Police, and School Teachers etc. Thats hardly a socialist system. I think a state funded universal healthcare system is much better than an industrialized one, it prevents families from going bankrupt after life-saving cancer treatment and other serious health conditions. Basically it removes finanical barriers to quality healthcare!

The UK has also got a private healthcare system too if you want to be seen to right away with very affordable healthcare insurers like Bupa which btw is by country MILES cheaper than any US insurer!

I nearly choked on my dinner when I found out it costs the patient $1000 just to call out an ambulance! Now thats extortionate and immoral!
 
Last edited:
Yeah for real. US healthcare makes Bupa look cheap as chips. And the quality of care you get in the private system is some of the best in the world. Go to any private hospital in London and you will see signs in different languages and translator services offered because wealthy people from around the world, who I can't imagine have the ability to get their costs covered by insurance when they're going internationally, will fly over just to get treated here privately.

In the US you pay a fortune and still get a level of care below the NHS, albeit with shorter waiting lists. In the UK you pay for private healthcare you get top end fancy everything, doctors will literally see you the same day, you can get treatments not available to most people, it's crazy.

If you stay in a private hospital you get your own what is effectively a hotel room with a huge TV with a bunch of films loaded onto it and there's enough nurses to each floor that if you need one they come within a minute or two. Oh and food is actual food and you get a decent menu to choose from.

So you lay there in your bed with a 50" TV playing whatever film you like while you eat a fresh meal of your choice and a nurse shoots you up with morphine and feeds you Valium.

I mean obviously I'd rather not have to be in hospital. But if I do, isn't it better to be in a drug hotel?
 
Ok, here is the place to air our views and open up the discussion about prescribed medications/legal drugs for any and all of the DSM described conditions, disorders, states of mind and illnesses. I find that it is often the case in this forum to slip into derailing an OP's thread asking a specific question with our own arguments ,either pro and con, about certain medications and diagnoses or about the validity and use of all medications. Attempting to be mindful of where we engage in this debate, I am creating this thread.

I have been very open about my own biases against the institutionalized over-medicating of the American population starting with very young children in school and continuing into juvenile halls, prisons and nursing homes. I recognize that this is a completely political stance and I have no intention of denying anyone's beneficial experience with these drugs as they can be helpful, and often life-saving. I also recognize that what happens in my country is very different than other countries. My political views come from experiences with my own mental health, that of my late son (who was often medicated out of his mind by psychiatrists) and from working in an elementary school where I see children medicated for behaviors and not for their own best interests. They are also influenced by my association with The Foundation for Excellence in Mental Health Care, whose views and goals I share.

What I would ask for all the discussions on this forum is that we respect different perspectives, acknowledging that they are born of very personal and often painful experience, and keep our discussions as non-personal and non-aggressive as possible. A discussion is intended to expand the awareness of all the participants. It is important in a polarized world that we talk to each other respectfully, especially when we strongly disagree. I am quite passionate about my views and I'm sure everyone in this forum is as passionate about theirs. But no one ever changes their mind when being yelled at directly ( and that can be orally or through the written word). So my hope for this discussion/debate is that we can attack ideas and not each other for espousing them. We all want the same thing: we want effective treatment for anyone suffering chronic mental illness, whether it is depression, schizophrenia, anxiety, ADHD, bipolar or any mix of possible challenges. What better starting point than to look for balance and overlap in seemingly opposing views?

So pull off the boxing gloves, pull up a chair and let us know how you feel about everything from diagnosing to treatments.
I am totally anti-psychiatry after 2 very bad experiences where I was diagnosed with a Mental Illness I didn't have & it was used to explain why I was so stressed from being stalked by a violent ex boyfriend.

I was told I was delusional & then I was told I had an array of MH diagnosis which explained these "Delusions".

I do have PTSD from Domestic Violence & I was never given support for that issue, instead all my PTSD symptoms were linked to the "Delusions" & I was told I was imagining the violence.

I would not recommend psychiatric services for myself or anyone else, especially young people. During my last engagement with Psych, they dug up an assessment I had when I was still 16 at school which said I was experiencing depression. The doctors then used this to tell me (now 40) that I had a life long Mental Illness & I had never been well & I will stay unwell for the rest of my life.

I was then threatened with ECT if I did not consent to an injection of psychiatric drugs.

I don't recommend anyone seek assistance beyond their GP & a Psychologist - stay the fk away from all Psych services is my best advice...
 
I am totally anti-psychiatry after 2 very bad experiences where I was diagnosed with a Mental Illness I didn't have & it was used to explain why I was so stressed from being stalked by a violent ex boyfriend.

I was told I was delusional & then I was told I had an array of MH diagnosis which explained these "Delusions".

I do have PTSD from Domestic Violence & I was never given support for that issue, instead all my PTSD symptoms were linked to the "Delusions" & I was told I was imagining the violence.

I would not recommend psychiatric services for myself or anyone else, especially young people. During my last engagement with Psych, they dug up an assessment I had when I was still 16 at school which said I was experiencing depression. The doctors then used this to tell me (now 40) that I had a life long Mental Illness & I had never been well & I will stay unwell for the rest of my life.

I was then threatened with ECT if I did not consent to an injection of psychiatric drugs.

I don't recommend anyone seek assistance beyond their GP & a Psychologist - stay the fk away from all Psych services is my best advice...
Complex PTSD is the most commonly misdiagnosed condition I heard. That sounds like an absolutely horrible experience you had with Psychiatry.
 
Complex PTSD is the most commonly misdiagnosed condition I heard. That sounds like an absolutely horrible experience you had with Psychiatry.
It really was & I will need a period of time just to recover from Psychiatric "Care". I have subscribed to the "Mad in America" website & watch their videos on YouTube which has been a big help for me moving forward. They have a lot of great doctors speaking out about bad psychiatric practices & workplace cultures.

Reading posts here has also been helpful
 
Top