Mental Health Narcissism Support Thread

[nuttynutskin]

Stop engaging her if you can because that's what she wants. Narcissistic supply doesn't have to be positive.

 

[paranoid android]

Herbavore makes a good point. Our society encourages Narcissism and indeed we are told from day 1 that human beings are inherently selfish creatures who can never have enough wealth and power and that we should stop at nothing to obtain either. People who don't worship money and don't admire the rich and the powerful and are not materialistic themselves are thought of as weird by society as a whole. The whole greed is good thing is basically the motto of Western Capitalist society more or less. we are taught right from the cradle to the grave to want the unnecessarily big house, a spouse with a big wedding, 2 kids, the 2 car garage, the 2 expensive cars and a SUV for taking the 2 kids and your spouse out to some shitty diner every weekend which is the only time you ever really see each other.

So yeah in a way society conditions us to be narcissists

 

[nuttynutskin]

I don't think it's necessarily "western capitalist society" that's to blame because things weren't like this in the 1950's. I think the problem is more to do with the media, technology and the breakdown of family values more than anything. I definitely think that culture in the US advocates narcissism tho. A lot of emphasis is put on materialism and self-centeredness. Combine that with a lack of family structure and I think that is indeed a good recipe for narcissism within society.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Herbavore makes a good point. Our society encourages Narcissism and indeed we are told from day 1 that human beings are inherently selfish creatures who can never have enough wealth and power and that we should stop at nothing to obtain either. People who don't worship money and don't admire the rich and the powerful and are not materialistic themselves are thought of as weird by society as a whole. The whole greed is good thing is basically the motto of Western Capitalist society more or less. we are taught right from the cradle to the grave to want the unnecessarily big house, a spouse with a big wedding, 2 kids, the 2 car garage, the 2 expensive cars and a SUV for taking the 2 kids and your spouse out to some shitty diner every weekend which is the only time you ever really see each other.

So yeah in a way society conditions us to be narcissists

It's nurtured and not natural as humans are social animals, more than most animals, the closest to us might be elephants and some apes. But yeah the western junk culture that is at its apex right now is typical of a failure hiding behind limited success like ...say Donald Trump and the worship some give him. The western world was made so that, well, whatever I'm trying to say, The Offspring in the last album when they were still a very legit band said in the last song of Ixnay On The Hombre, Change The World :

You're ready
Saving yourself
You're gonna change the world
Now when the day is set they'll line up all the same
And those that need the most will never get or gain
The ones you call your friends
Are failing you again
Reach into your bag of tricks and make it go away
You don't want to change the world
Like you say
You're in it for yourself
No one else
You're ready
Saving yourself
You're gonna change the world
You're ready
Saving yourself
You're gonna change the world
And since you ain't what you say
Then just go away
Cause some don't lie
Some don't lie

"Go on now they won't tell
Go on now and save yourself"

And if anyone ever heard this song, just hearing it brings in feelings of deep nihilism from Dexter and the gang here.

Too bad they had to make 4 singles per album with the album following and every other what this one is on (Americana,although the rest is real stuff, but its kinda annoying to admit loving the offspring these days, surely not as embarassing as ever being a fan of Green Day. I remember when my dad bought me Smash, I was listening to my first "punk" album Dookie for like 2 weeks, and that masterpiece of melodic hardcore punk, made me taper over it (had no discman, and then even they sucked then, smallest vibration, epic skipping), but yeah, I won't describe too much of my own narcissism (I truely believe punk and real metal (thrash or speed and early death metal before it became a kind of joke) are the only real revolutionary music, even if a band chooses to leave to major label, often they go back to the indie labels as a way to steal from the man. But yeah, when Nirvana paved the way for non-commercial music to be on commercial airwaves, they panicked, and then some rap artist won the alternative music Juno in '97, the music execs were trying something to put back that subversive music away since they couldn't control the band. Heh, reminds me of Jeff Hanneman (RIP) of Slayer telling the Sony exec (they were forced to go to a major label, Rubin closed Def American) "we're gonna need a single here". They could have had one, Divine Intervention is a great slow spooky kind of Slayer song, but since it's 6:20 long, wasn't possible. I think they released Dittohead as a single lol, its the craziest song they ever made imo, that was weird. I'd love to go back to the 90's, goddamn life was good, and not necessarily go back younger.

 

[nuttynutskin]

A couple videos on gaslighting...





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

 

[paranoid android]

^ That reminds me of the 1944 film Gaslight where a husband tries to convince his wife that she is slowly going insane. I saw this movie ages ago and didn't even know it was a real thing until i joined BL actually. It further reminds me that there are indeed some weird (and not the good weird) people out there that you have to watch out for. It's not the obviously out there people that you have to worry about (most people deemed eccentric by society's standards as completely harmless to others anyway same thing with most mentally ill people) but the manipulative people who praise you up and make you feel like your the best person on earth until you are no longer of any use to them that are dangerous and usually leave a slew of charred lives in their path.

Cool find on the videos by the way Nutty . I must have a look at them when i can.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Yeah, NPD is especially insidious imo because people that suffer from it usually don't seem outwardly crazy. That's a real problem especially for victims of narcissistic abuse because other people likely won't even notice anything or even worse think that the victim is the crazy one.

 

[ava_adore]

I've not been able to have a "normal" relationship since being entangled with a practiced narcissist in my twenties. I've been single for seven years because of it.

I sometimes wonder if I'll ever get better. I meet nice guys from time to time, but because I'm constantly on red alert, I often push them away or just won't let them in at all.

I recently started seeing a male friend, quite casually, and some of his behaviour is bringing up red flags and I'm struggling to figure out if they're real or if it's just my head.

I've tried CBT and talk therapy but it's not helped. I'm currently going through a really bad patch due to the situation with my friend and the end result has been that I've started losing it again and I'm going to be starting beta blockers again and I'm having to make massive lifestyle changes i.e. quitting substances, giving myself a set daily routine, starting a diary, things like that.

I feel incredibly, incredibly alone and like I'm completely defective.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Maybe this might help?...

 

[Listening]

I recently started seeing a male friend, quite casually, and some of his behaviour is bringing up red flags and I'm struggling to figure out if they're real or if it's just my head.

Part of the problem is that narcissism<->neuroticism is a spectrum. Normal people have narcissistic tenancies too; it simply does not dominate their character.

Being with a narcissist for an extended period of time can definitely make it difficult to trust get very close to others. Unfortunately, you'll never be able to persue another relationship without finding a way to let go and trust. Will you get hurt again? Maybe, but you can't know it until you know it...

I've tried CBT and talk therapy but it's not helped.

How long have you given it? It can take a long time to see results (like years; sorry). You also need to find a good match. I personally am not a fan of CBT, but I know that it works for many.

I feel incredibly, incredibly alone and like I'm completely defective.

Blah. We're all somewhat defective, but there's hope that we can learn how to thrive under these less than ideal conditions. Sounds like you are pretty self-aware and are actively looking for the way forward. I'm sure you'll make it there.

 

[domesticaffair]

Maybe this might help?...

Watching this video and the others in this thread feels like a slap in the face. I've been struggling with the realization of my own narcissistic behavior lately, and to realize how much it has probably affected my girlfriend and family is really stunning. I wouldn't classify myself as a full-blown narcissist; but, out of insecurity, I've been pretty controlling and sometimes even somewhat abusive of my girlfriend and friends for a long time. I go mad if anything pokes at my ego.

What do I do? I just want to be a good person.

 

[nuttynutskin]

I haven't actually researched much as far as help for the narcissist, most of it has been for victims. If you really suffer from NPD then the prognosis isn't great, but most narcissists aren't going to seek help in the first place...

Treatment

People rarely seek therapy for NPD. This is partly because NPD sufferers deny they have a problem. Most cannot see the destructive damage they cause to themselves and to others and usually only seek treatment at the insistence of relatives and friends.[5]

Psychotherapy is used to treat NPD.[39] Clinical strategies are outlined by Heinz Kohut, Stephen M. Johnson and James F. Masterson, while Johns[20] discusses a continuum of severity and the kinds of therapy most effective in different cases. Schema Therapy, a form of therapy developed by Jeffrey Young that integrates several therapeutic approaches (psychodynamic, cognitive, behavioral etc.), also offers an approach for the treatment of NPD.[40] Unconscious fears of exposure or inadequacy often cause defensive disdain of therapeutic processes.[41][42] Pattern change strategies, over a long period of time, are for narcissists to work on increasing their ability to become more empathetic in everyday relationships. To help modify their sense of entitlement and self-centeredness schema, the strategy is to help them identify how to utilize their unique talents and to help others for reasons other than their own personal gain. This is not so much to change their self-perception of their "entitlement" feeling but more to help them empathize with others. Another type of treatment would be temperament change.[43]

Anger, rage, impulsivity and impatience can be worked on with skill training. Therapy is not one hundred percent effective because patients receive feedback poorly and defensively. Anxiety disorders and somatoma dysfunctions are prevalent but the most common would be depression. Medication has proven ineffective for treating narcissistic personality disorder, but psychoanalytic psychotherapy has a higher success rate. Therapists must recognize the patient’s traits and use caution in tearing down narcissistic defenses too quickly.

Group treatment has its benefits as the effectiveness of receiving peer feedback rather than the clinician’s may be more accepted, but group therapy can also contradict itself as the patient may show "demandingness, egocentrism, social isolation and withdrawal, and socially deviant behavior." Researchers originally thought group therapy among Narcissists would fail because it was believed that group therapy required empathy that NPD patients lack. However, studies show group therapy does hold value for patients because it lets them explore boundaries, develop trust, increase self-awareness, and accept feedback.[5] Relationship therapy stresses the importance of learning and applying four basic interpersonal skills: "...effective expression, empathy, discussion and problem solving/conflict resolution."[5]

Marital/relationship therapy is most beneficial when both partners participate.[43]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#ICD-10

 

[domesticaffair]

I don't think my problem is bad enough to warrant a diagnosis, but it certainly has affected the people around me. It's more like there's a really selfish, bratty side of me that acts out when I feel insecure. For instance, I instinctively try to tear other people down to make myself feel bigger if I start to feel insecure, and that's the first realization I came to. I think that's the reason that I've never been able to keep friendships.

I'm still pretty young, so maybe it's just part of growing up.

I feel a little stupid for posting, now. There's not much that anyone can do for me. But I can't stop thinking about the past, and I've been feeling pretty miserable about it. Thanks for replying.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Why do you feel insecure? I guess that could be a good starting point.

 

[Listening]

I'm still pretty young, so maybe it's just part of growing up.

I feel a little stupid for posting, now. There's not much that anyone can do for me. But I can't stop thinking about the past, and I've been feeling pretty miserable about it. Thanks for replying.

How old are you? Regardless, and especially because you are young, there is something that you can do! First of all, maintain your curiosity about yourself! You need to keep looking at yourself. You are off to a good start. Most narcissists will have a particularly hard time spotting their own destructive thinking and behavior - or recognizing it as problematic. Continue to be curious and probe your own behavior and the motivations behind it.

That said, changing these things is difficult. Very difficult. In fact, for most people (maybe all people) it is impossible without the help of a great therapist that you trust and see regularly. It can take many years. It's worth it.

Good luck.

 

[Eveleivibe]

One of my best friends as a teenager was a narcissist. As a thirteen, fourteen year old, narcissists are heaps of fun. They're impulsive, they have no regrets or remorse, they get what they want - exactly what every adolescent male desires. Breaking the rules, being a pest, living life without regret.

However, as we started to grow older, something odd happened; he didn't seem to be maturing. Myself and other friends took responsibility for our actions and recognized when we did wrong. We had a much more balanced view of things. We didn't lash out randomly when our egos were pricked, and we didn't take advantage of others and situations.

For this friend, nothing was ever his fault. When something went right, it was obviously because he inherently deserved it. When something went wrong, it was another persons fault, or an extenuating circumstance, or any excuse he could think of. As we reached the later years of high school, we realized something was seriously off, but we couldn't put our fingers on it. He'd single out one of our friends and abuse them verbally and emotionally, pointing out what he saw to be their flaws - basically, he shat on everyone around him. He manipulated and lied to get what he wanted, he had this insane capacity to bend and twist past occurrences where he did something wrong to seem like he wasn't at fault. He sent long, raving attacks to every person who cared about him, pointing out their flaws, and instructing them on how they could be better people.

I reached breaking point personally after one night out of no-where he sent me one of his now infamous and semi-regular character attacks which was so self-righteous, so scathing, so subtly abusive (it's called gaslighting) that I just said "enough." I sent the rant to another friend of mine, and he said, "Dude. He's a narcissist. I've known for ages." I didn't at the time know what pathological narcissism was, but I started doing some research. One of the things I picked up on is that if you ignore the narcissist (something they aren't used to and hate) they simply melt. They break down. It's as if they cease to exist. So the next day we were at his house, smoking a joint together, and he started going on like he usually did about angels and devils and such (he was a big psuedo-spiritual quack at the time, using spirituality as an excuse to "elevate" himself above others.) He turned to me with a completely straight face and said:

"I really believe i'm an angel sent from heaven down to earth to cleanse the world of it's darkness."

It hit me like a ton of bricks. The degree of grandiosity in this persons mind was beyond not normal - it was absolutely absurd. So I tried something, instinctively almost. As he blabbed on about why he was an angel, I slowly started disengaging from him. I stopped giving him eye contact. His voice started wavering. I stopped directing my attention and body posture toward him, even though it was only the two of us there. He started stuttering as he spoke. Eventually, I completely closed myself off to him. We were two people sitting in a garden smoking a joint, but I wasn't "there" with him anymore. His eyes filled with a mixture of confusion and rage. He struggled, with every trick in his little book, to regain my attention, but I wouldn't let him. This heavy weight, the realization of the years of bullshit: the idealization and devaluation, the rage, the manipulation... everything just made sense right then and there.

That was the last time I saw him.

I deleted him from Facebook, deleted his phone number, implemented a strict no contact rule, and I've never looked back. As the years have gone by, I've seen the ways I've been emotionally traumatized by him. I now know the power of emotional abuse - I feel immense empathy for those who have suffered from it. When I hear people grew up with narcissistic parents, it makes me want to give them a huge hug. Those who never come across these people are so blessed, they have no idea.

TL:DR

Had a narcissistic friend, didn't realize he was one till we got older, finally came to my senses, never spoke to him again.

Wow that's interesting. It wasn't tldr at all. Thanks for sharing with us. Sorry that you were put through that n hope you've recovered from it now.

Interesting thread, Nutty x

Evey

 

[domesticaffair]

Why do you feel insecure? I guess that could be a good starting point.

The insecurity comes from an overall self-defeating attitude I have that I've never been able to get rid of. It's like there's a voice in the back of my head that's always finding a way to demean me. What the voice says is what I imagine other people are thinking of me. My parents are pretty snobby people, and the way they look down on everyone around them has rubbed off on me. Now, I can't shake the feeling that everyone else is looking down on me. The easiest way to cope with it is to simply demean everyone else more than I imagine they have demeaned me.

I don't act like a brat with people that I don't know well, so most people don't realize it; but I end up letting those problems out of the bag when I start to form a relationship with someone.

How old are you? Regardless, and especially because you are young, there is something that you can do! First of all, maintain your curiosity about yourself! You need to keep looking at yourself. You are off to a good start. Most narcissists will have a particularly hard time spotting their own destructive thinking and behavior - or recognizing it as problematic. Continue to be curious and probe your own behavior and the motivations behind it.

That said, changing these things is difficult. Very difficult. In fact, for most people (maybe all people) it is impossible without the help of a great therapist that you trust and see regularly. It can take many years. It's worth it.

Good luck.

Changing the way I act shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm worried that the way I feel will never go away. If my ego remains as sensitive as it is and all I can do is contain my anger, then what would the point be? That's really what I'm worried about.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've been thinking about seeing a therapist for a while, so I suppose this would be a good time to set up an appointment.

And thanks for this thread, Nutty. It really helped me.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Just in case I wasn't clear: We are married and live together. Blocking all contact sounds like heaven. Instead she is pretty much everywhere in my universe. She's the type of person that dominates all mental space in a room (or house). She has an amazing ability to be absolutely controlling and demanding (everything needs to be "just so" for every minute aspect of her life), whilst at the same time making herself appear totally helpless so that the people around her find themselves doing everything they can to manage her life. It's amazing really.

As I say, I've made a choice to stay with her for the sake of our kids. This isn't ideal for anyone, but it's better (for them) than the alternative. As much as I'm bad-mouthing her here, I am still trying to find a way to live with her in some reasonable way, for the sake of my own sanity if nothing else.

Wow..... Hope you're able to sort this soon x

Evey

 

[alasdairm]

^ That reminds me of the 1944 film Gaslight where a husband tries to convince his wife that she is slowly going insane.

that's why it's called 'gaslighting'. it is named for the movie.

alasdair

 

[Listening]

Changing the way I act shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm worried that the way I feel will never go away. If my ego remains as sensitive as it is and all I can do is contain my anger, then what would the point be? That's really what I'm worried about.

While it is not clear that it's possible to substantially change one's core character traits, it most certainly is possible to overcome one's insecurities.

Here's something interesting to consider. Let's say that you were really able to change the way you act to be consistent with how you believe you would act were it not for your insecurities and narcissistic tendencies. Let's say that, in spite of the discomfort, you have a strong resolve and you are able to do it for a long time; eventually it becomes habitual such that you are no longer ashamed of your actions. Indeed, you have now been acting respectably, consistently, for a long time.

How might this affect your insecurities? Your ego would let go of identifying with defeat, and attach itself instead to pride of behavior. Eventually, there would be nothing left to be insecure about.