Need a Game plan to quit my Perchocet addiction

[123darkstar]

Hey people , ill keep this simple and most ive already written in introductions .

I had 4 surgerys bla bla - i over the pain but since august 22 ive been eating about 10 perks a day - thats 100 mg of oxycodone .
Many days have been less but i just want to cover myself because i have ate ten many days .

OK i can taper which i did befor - id love a better taper plan - mine was fast and hard and nearly killed me - " i think " - well mt Blood Pressure went up to high .

Also i have a subutex or suboxone doctor who wants me to take 8 mg first day which i have actually heard is all you need ever period .
He says i wont relapse as easy if ill basically take a little as possible for an entire month and then taper for 2 months - he says by then ill be fine .
I have never relapsed without a tramatic injury - EVER so i dont think relapse is a problem unless i have another surgery - i had 14.

Anyhow can anyone help me with a possible switch to Sub but make sure i dont do enough to get hooked and have horrible WD for like a month or more .
I have a friend who stops and starts all the time on smack and his method for stopping is - 2 mg subutex twice a day for 4 days then 2 mg subutex once a day for 2 days and he jumps and he says i have zero withdrawels . Then he stays clean about 6 months and then he goes right back to smack .

I just need a plan - or if there is a thread already on this im sure there is - i just have not found it yet ....

Thanks 123Darkstar

 

[neversickanymore]

Hey darkstar and welcome to BL

First here is a thread you may enjoy Grateful Dead Appreciation Thread

As far as the taper from oxy, you will want to cut your dose once a week.

So week #1 would be nine per day, week #2 eight a day and so on.

It takes a week for the system to eliminate all the oxy and readjust to the new dose. So by dropping a doable amount once a week you will drop the dose and then allow your system to adjust to the new level.

I would not switch to subs unless you have expired every other option. Subs have a very long half life. Drugs with very long half lives come with very long withdrawals.

The acutes from subs last 10 to 14 days. The acutes from oxy last a week. In order to switch over to the subs you will need to be in decent withdrawals or you get precipitated withdrawal. This means that when you would switch over to the subs you will already be 1/6 or 1/5 of the way through the tunnel.

So by switching over to the subs you turn a seven day ride into an 11 or 16 day excursion.

Here are some medications to explore for your detox. Tops on the list would be gabapentin or lyrica and the clonidine. They are not a cure all, but make a huge difference for many people. They should be easily acquired through a physician for the purpose of opiate detox.

medications for acute opiate detox

The medications I would explore the use of for detox would be:
>Clonidine< DOSED EVER FOUR HOURS..

one of either
>NEURONTIN< >HERE< >HERE< >here<
OR >Lyrica<
OR >phenibut<

>A BENZO BUT JUST AT NIGHT<
>a nsaid<
>melatonin<
tylenol
Senokot S is a stool softener and laxative. If you do not want the laxative you can go for strait stool softenerDioctyl sodium sulfosuccinate.

(Opi Withdrawal) what is the best comfort meds for opiate w/d?

Your Personal Opiate Withdrawal Arsenal


Your going to get this done and freedoms on the other side of the tunnel

 

[123darkstar]

Good grief he never said a thing about precipitated withdrawel - he just said go 12 hours off the perks and we will have you nice and comforatable within and hour of you showing . I thought Oxy had a really short half life - 12 hours is WD and i can easy go 24 hours which i was told will make the sub very very effective .
I have been trying to taper - but i keep messing up when i start feeling shitty i just take 20 mg and i feel good but only for 4 hours - i think my matabolism is very fast .

It was here on blue light i read about the Gold Standard for Subutex - and the protocol was all the same 8 mg and thats it period of sub
Or various combos of MG but they all mosre or less added up to 8 mg or 14 total and none lasted over 5-8 days and that was that .

How do you get your self into precipitated WD - ive never even heard of it . Ill search it .

For sure the taper option cost me way more and my doctor will never give me any of the drugs you mentioned - ive asked befor .
I could try a diff detox outfit .
Im in a very small city and 90% of detox here is terrible - they send the addict to methadone .

 

[neversickanymore]

Half life is how long it takes for half of whats present in the system to be eliminated. So about six times a drugs half life will give us a strong estimate as to how long it will take to eliminate it completely from the system.

Oxy has a half life of 3 to 4 hours.

So within 24 hours it will be gone. So at twelve hours you would likely be fine.

Bupe has a half life of 32 to 60 hours.

So take 6 x 32h. and 6 x 60. Then we add four days (four the system to adjust) add 12 hours (to avoid precipitated wd) but subtract two because withdrawals won't start for two days.

Doing this we get a acute withdrawal length from suboxone at between 10.5 days (12.5 after last dose) to 17.5 (19.5 after last dose) days.

This will give you an estimated time of acute withdrawal using a suboxone detox.

If I were in your situation I would go to a family physician and explore the gabapentin and clonidine. You will only need to be on them for a week.

Look up the dose for gabapentin for RLS in the tarascon pharmacopoeia for the right dose.. usually people feel the relief they are seeking with a two day titration up to 1200 mg 3 x a day.

Just because people bill themselves as experts in detoxing people it does not mean they know the best way.

I would consider beginning the titration three days before you plan to jump.

 

[123darkstar]

Thats a very good reply the Doctor has said NO to any help period - he said there is not enough scientific evidence to prove BLA BLA BLA -
I Appreciate that
So can i ask - if i took sub for only 6 days and i only took 4 mg a day i will withdraw from sub ?

Looking at it the other way

So i just called my buddy who does the sub route and relapses - he takes Oxy and Heroin all the time - lots of it .
He just said he takes the sub only 6-10 hours after his last hit of Heroin - im guessing at this point he is all most completly off oxy and only on Heroin because its so much cheaper and he only stops when he gets broke . Which is rare because he makes alot of money .
BUT
I know i know ---- why would i listen to an addict right .... Well here is why his IQ is off the charts, and hes not prone to lying - hes sick smart with math and IT stuff - just a way all around smart guy - I only listen to him because he said it works so well for him . His Subutex plan is 2 mg morning and 2 evening for 4 days then 2 mig morning 2 days and thats it he is off totally - period and that last at least 6 months everytime .
He told me " I am a pro at quitting now but I suck ass becasue im a pro at relapsing to "- Quote Anyhow hes only on Sub for 5-6 days Max - Period ever and he says he does feel some RLS but not much - BTW i have never got that - unfortunalty i get it in my arms its hideous ..... My palms cramp up very very bad .

Anyhow i have heard nothing but horror stories about subutex or suboxone except somewhere ON THIS SITE i read that sub if done right is the very best way but never ever ever over one week period and very very small amounts - Less is More The induction phase is literally almost staying in withdrawel just barely brings you out and then you jump .

- thats when i called my buddy to see what he does because i knew they gave him Sub in a fancy high doller rehab place . And the inducted him - bad spelling on 2 mg and they cut him off in a few days - he said he got 4 mg a day max and was off in 7 days - now hes detoxing it in 5 day - At rehab no other drugs were administered at all . He never got Naloxone because he says it makes his head hurt and he gets sick and shaky .
Then he had to stay there for 90 days . Hes rich .....

The taper method is better unless the sub would work for me like it works for him .

My problem w the Taper is im cheating to much - also i can and need to cut way faster than one pill a week - i just started cutting barely at all and now if i take 20 mg i am wasted---- befor i started tapering i could take 30mg and i felt nothing - even at 60mg i barely felt it - I was taking them only to avoid WD and im still doing that - IT SUCKS - Im to the end now - that place where i cant get high and everything hurts . Just like every opiate addict knows so so so well .

So with a weekly cut of only one pill im looking at thousands in meds 70 -63 -56 -42-35-28-21-14-7-4- various .05 not many of those at all .
So 309 pills at 8 each 2742$
I cant afford it but close - i can cut faster right ? a always thought i was good cutting about 20% every 4 days and having a cheater 10 every 8 days .


Also i have to just assume i will not get any help from a Doc because i already asked both docs and they said no to any and all meds to help .
They said there is not enought scientific data to prove that the meds you listed works because i already knew about them - i get High Blood pressure when i withdraw .
So both my doctors have said NO NO NO and the Sub doctor is telling me 3 months - YOU know ill be in hell if i go that route -
He said that after i was stable the entire rest of the time would be tapering - and please dont fight him on this because he promises i wont relapse as easy .
But i dont relapse once im off anyhow - i just go break all my ribs or something stupid .

Well i agree tapering or cold turkey is best - does anyone thing just 5 days on small does of Sub will work or is that a pipe dream - one guy says 8 mg and that is it - you take 8 mg subutex and you quit opiates - he says he only feels the withdrawel while waiting - he waits at least 24 hours off his oxy..
This info is in this forum somehwere ....
Im not trying any sub anytime soon -

Thanks very very much - like my wife says whay replace one chemical with another - unless it works ...
I was really suprised to hear my buddy and read it here . Ive been lurking for a long time off and on .
I was clean for along time - i never had cravings - in fact i felt way way better clean - Then the knee replacement ... Boom

 

[neversickanymore]

The Doctor has said NO to any help period - he said there is not enough scientific evidence to prove BLA BLA BLA -

Im sorry you are dealing with ignorant doctors. You could counter and ask them for scientific evidence it wont work or will do harm.

Also clonidine is used for detox all the time.. This is a blood pressure medication so they may be giving you this already or something similar. There is a ton of evidence or this one.

Its you body and your detox so you could press the issue and tell the docs to get off their high horses and become part of the solution.

So can i ask - if i took sub for only 6 days and i only took 4 mg a day i will withdraw from sub ?

Your really detoxing from opiates.. Bupe is an opiate. It effects the same receptors as the oxy.. not in the same manor, but it effects the same system. By switching over to the Bupe you will just swap out a drug that has a much longer half life. This will mean that you will be in acutes for a much longer time. If there is an advantage to this it will be that you will gradually detox harder and harder as the medication is removed from the system. IMHO this will end up being a negative experience in the end as you will still be detoxing a a week or more after you would have been done with a CT oxy detox.

- thats when i called my buddy to see what he does because i knew they gave him Sub in a fancy high doller rehab place . And the inducted him - bad spelling on 2 mg and they cut him off in a few days - he said he got 4 mg a day max and was off in 7 days - now hes detoxing it in 5 day
The taper method is better unless the sub would work for me like it works for him .

He would have been done already days ago if he would have just kicked. Now he likley has five to ten days more of steadily feeling worse and worse. Expensive detox places know that many people will basically take anything no matter what the end consequences are if it means postponing the withdrwals. So they sell this crap approach for big money to desperate people.

My problem w the Taper is im cheating to much - also i can and need to cut way faster than one pill a week - i just started cutting barely at all and now if i take 20 mg i am wasted---- befor i started tapering i could take 30mg and i felt nothing - even at 60mg i barely felt it - I was taking them only to avoid WD and im still doing that - IT SUCKS - Im to the end now - that place where i cant get high and everything hurts . Just like every opiate addict knows so so so well .

Yeah i get ya.. The only thing I was ever good a tapering was tapering off a taper. Come to think of it I wasn't even very good at that.. lol.

So with a weekly cut of only one pill im looking at thousands in meds 70 -63 -56 -42-35-28-21-14-7-4- various .05 not many of those at all .
So 309 pills at 8 each 2742$
I cant afford it but close - i can cut faster right ? a always thought i was good cutting about 20% every 4 days and having a cheater 10 every 8 days .

That was just the most painless way to taper.. You could also consider starting the first cut with 3 or even 5 and then go two weeks at that dose and drop 3 or five again. This could mean your symptoms would not get really bad, but then again you will end up being in some sort of withdrawal for over a month.

You got this.. really it comes down to saying fuck it.. Im going to feel rough and thats ok as freedom from these fucking pills is on the other side of that tunnel and i'm going to have to run through that bastard sometime so why not now.

Just draw that line in the sand and say alright enough, Im not going to use no matter what and in a week ill be feeling better.

 

[David Wooderson]

Find a doctor that will keep you on a suboxone taper. Unfortunately there is no silver bullet for opiate addiction. But suboxone will give you the best chances for success. I would try to find a doctor who will prescribe it and once you have your script flush your pain meds and cancle any refills.

Best of luck darkstar!

 

[123darkstar]

I have been reading alot here - this place is so HUGE

Was thinking i should get all the detox meds that i dont have already .

But need a list and suggestions .

Gabapentin
Lyrica
L tyrosine
Dextramothophan

What is a fiar list for that 4th -6 th day thats so damn horrible ?

Thanks Dark

 

[jammin83]

In all honesty man, you are not on a huge dose. WD will be uncomfortable but neversickanymore gives the best advice around for opiate withdrawal.

I did the subs for years and it sucked. I wish I would have never started them and lots of people I know feel the same way. Subs are super pricey too. You will probably be better off just tapering off the oxy and at some point making a jump off. My own preference is to get it over with. Get some comfort meds and hunker down for a few days. You got this brother!

 

[123darkstar]

I can get all this the below l over the net and or i spoke with a Doc who says he can will write me a scrip for lyrica .

>NEURONTIN< >HERE< >HERE< >here<
OR >Lyrica<
OR >phenibut<
which is better ----- you said get one of the above - i can get all three and try them - i think i need something for BP cause my BP will go up
>A BENZO BUT JUST AT NIGHT<
>a nsaid<
>melatonin<
tylenol
Some of it is Vet medicine - and i have a place that sales stuff and they have always came through - they just dont sale anything like a real pain pill .
I have 30 or so tremadols i didnt know if they could be used very very sparsly to help w the WD ....
I can handle all of it but one thing guys i have got to kill or i will fail - I do not get RLS i get the same thinng but its in my arms and my palms .
Palms have alot of nerves and i clinch up my fist into balls super tight and barely can stand it - thats what makes me take a pill .
Lyrica might help with that - i have never ever felt it in my legs at all - Zero - Nada
I did taper off once it was the most disclipined taper ever and it worked - i never lost a night sleep but man it took me 60 days and during the worst days at the end i would hike hills for 2.5 hours almost everyday - it was horrible and every third day or so id take .5 pill but that was it - then i just didnt need them .
I felt so damn good after i quit - since it was a long taper and i increased my endorphins with the torture hikes i was better off .

Guess im gonna continue tapering and forget the subs - I asked my buddy again and he said NO NO NO - he said thats BS he said I dont get any withdrawels when i do subs that way - He actually got kinda pissed off at me - cause he knows that i know hes quit several times - He keeps says if i do 2 mg evening and morning for 4 days and then 2 mg morning for 2 -3 more days at the max and jump ill never get WD at all - he said you will feel something but its barely barely WD .
I aksed him 3 times now ..... hes been clean for a good while again - so you guys know im so tempted to try that method .
I was positive i read it here to - One guy somehwere here calls it the Gold standerd and he said he took one 8 sub and jumps and thats it and he said he does not get WD
Its in the massive forum .....

Im against substituting a chemical for a chemical already but those stories sure do sound nice .... They are saying almost zero WD

My method i deff get WD just i never get the hand clinch which was that part that runined a cold turkey befor .
If i could kill that i can handle the rest of the symptoms

 

[neversickanymore]

Your going to only want to use one of these...

>NEURONTIN<
OR >Lyrica<
OR >phenibut<

I think it has a great chance of helping you with the symptoms you have described.

I do not agree with your friend, but people experience different things.

The people I see sub detox work for are people with very small habits of a very short length.

IMO your habit is large enough and long enough that you will not be one of these people. Also you have been dependent before and that also makes a difference.

I am not saying with total certainty that that approach would not work for you, but I would hate to see you go through more misery then is necessary.

Really given the size and length of your recent habit and the fact that you have access to these medications I feel your trip through will be really doable.

If you find that its really awful then you can always try the sub route, but I would really give this a good try before you decided to go that route as you have a decent chance of regretting doing so.


I think with the lirica and some of the others your going to feel a little rough, but nothing you cant handle. So yeah your six or seven days away from freedom.

After the ac utes are over you may face some post acutes and it a good thing to come up with a plan to deal with any of those that pop up.

PAWS LINKS
Why We Don’t Get Better Immediately: Post-acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS)
Post Acute Withdrawal (PAW) Excerpted From “Staying Sober” By: Terence T. Gorski
Post-acute-withdrawal syndrome Wiki

Exercise and Brain Neurotransmission
Neurobiology of Exercise
Aerobic Exercise
Exercise 4 Health, Mental Health, and Addiction vs. The Endorphin Factory
Exercise 4 Health, Mental Health, and Addiction vs. I worked all that out
exercise and sleep

Chemicals and supplements to recover from opiate addiction
Diet & Neurogenesis


it is a powerful thing to keep our thoughts positive and here are some threads many of us use to help us do this.
Good things about being off drugs/getting sober
Share Something Positive from Your Day vs. It's All Around You
Today I Am Thankful For... Ver. 4 Infinite Chances in an Amazing World
Daily Personal Affirmations Log Vs IM THE SHIT & NOT a piece a.. not playing me. NOPE
Managing depressive thinking

Here is the mindfulness thread.
Anhedonia MEGA Thread

 

[neversickanymore]

In all honesty man, you are not on a huge dose. WD will be uncomfortable but neversickanymore gives the best advice around for opiate withdrawal.

Thanks for the great compliment

 

[123darkstar]

Thanks guys shit is getting real Thanks alot im in big trouble and have to stop this now

I took alot more on saterday as kind of farewell to the ox - I did a sport that im good at even on alot of oxy and did well .
Now my anxiety is getting off the charts - im super super super nearvous and very low on supply but i can likely hook up in the am to make damn sure i taper - i needed a shock just hope it dosent get bigger .
Ill taper way hard tomorrow and over the next week and post my results here . Totally not ready for this - but i dont have a effing choice - its quit or ill die - this will tkae everything away from me - damn it damn it damn it .....

 

[123darkstar]

Thats my massive problem - is i am not ready for this - I dont have the commitment level i have had in the past - im not on my knees crying - YET
If i did not get any more to taper id be forced to some doctor to reduce BP .
I have BP 120/80 all the time but in even miled WD it shoots way way way up - in fact i can feel it now .
Hopefully i get about 30 - 30's and take 2 a day for 15 days then i get 90 10's and for sure more tens and i go down to 5 mg a day - if i do it any other way likei have in the past it nearly killed me -
All except the one time i really did taper right - i was fine then - just a fast hard taper and i was totally fine .
This shit sux ---- i was really hoping the sub would do the trick - Nick my buddy says im crazy not to try it .....
I dont know what the hell to do - i do not like the idea of using another wicked bad opiate to quit what i am on - which is in the mild catagory of opiates

 

[jammin83]

No one is really ever that ready brother, so don't be too hard on yourself. Right now you are in active addiction and your addiction is threatened. You really, really need to try and get some gabapentin. It will help immensely. Only take it for the withdrawal though, after that get rid of it. You're stronger than you are giving yourself credit for. It's just scary right now. Hang in there man and don't give up on hope!

You have people around that are supportive of you trying to quit?

You will be good as gold on the other side. Keep that in mind. Much love man.

 

[123darkstar]

Im going to get some gabapentin.
But ive just been studying this crap for weeks on end -now .
I had a realization - and and an empiphany - i need to crush this crap ---
You know im reading thousands of threads on sub and i see how it works but its no easier than what i have .
THE MAIN THING - is what happens when i am sober - if i really makes it - Thats what im scaed of but thats also what ass i want to kick ....
Im going to go to hell and what im gonna do is eat well when i dont puke and take supps - and im going to become the warrior i once was .

Bros i have got to learn to live SOBER - really i realize this WD phase is just a short time and i need to do the time .
But then what about my other addictions - ill drink alittle - i never smoke weed but honestly weed brings the truth out in me - its very very very far from recreonational .
I have got to buck up get sober but i need to start working out more and if i have another surgery ---- fuck me - that will be 15 surgeries ----
I have got to do it no drugs ....
I have got to become a warrior

 

[123darkstar]

Thannks Jammin - everybody thank you .....

 

[123darkstar]

Made it through the night on my first cut - slept 11pm to 3 am i guess thats good . Have most of the early sighs of WD . I guess its not long enough for the diareeha to set in but it will - ill proably lose 30 pounds by the end of this - i will barely have the $ to do the taper so i might have to cut much faster and this is fast enough for me to feel like im all most not seeing things corectly - blurry weird trippy vision .
I added up last months total intake and i was wrong to say im on 60- 100 mg a day - closer to 180 mg a day .
So i cut about 60 mg - today is supposed to be another cut to a total of 60 mg a day - and i will take a few old shitty hydros .
Tomorrow i should be at 60 per day for 10 days and no more no matter what - Thats not to hard to handle anyhow having just some makes it so much better than a straigh jump - for me at least - ill be getting the comfort meds together as well and hope to god i can proceed with my cut after ten days and not have to jump - anyhow thats one big cut and i really need to excersise some - i think it helps even when you are still taking a good bit .
It really helps i hope - i dunno if i can eat but will try .

 

[123darkstar]

What about baclofen
Im reading all about it - sounds good - i think i can get it


Also i had terrible news today - i will know how bad this is my next monday - They want to do more surgery on me .....
I told you guys that i have had 4 in a row more or less but the last one was to long ago for me to be on meds - in fact i stopped meds between the surgeries but that last surgery still hurts - august 22 However i dont need pain meds for it NOWAY --- now if they cut my sinus open which they did once ill need something - its hideous .
I have never ever snorted nothing - not into it at all - But i broke my nose so many times the did complete recontrruction - now they say something has fallen lose in my sinus - i think its my cracked tooth but my eye socket to my lower jaw are on fire and my body temp is up .
Im really messed up - Lucky lucky lucky i scored 2 jobs that will profit me 2000 and i made 900 today - this is extreme luck and also extreme perserverance .
Oh well surgery date will be set by tuesday and i hope to keep tapering through all of it - Otherwise i need to die - in fact i might die from the infection - its not likely but its more sever than they thought - I could tell you guys what is happening but it would gross you out super super hard - i meen super super gross ....
Im just gonna keep this thread going if it needs to be somehwhere else then a Mod please move it .
Otherwise for now its me asking questions and trying to be accountable to some one .

 

[jammin83]

Not sure about baclofen, never used that one. Sorry to hear about the surgeries man. It's hard to stay clean when you are actually in pain. Seems like you are feeling more motivated about it all though, which is good news.

How you doing today?