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Thread: Hard to Ignore: Kratom is extremely dangerous for some users

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    Hard to Ignore: Kratom is extremely dangerous for some users 
    #1
    Swim and his girlfriend began experimenting with crushed green bali Kratom from a reputable source appx 3-4 weeks ago, averaging around 2-3 teaspoons of the powder mixed with fruit juice taken once daily in the morning. Retrospectively, it was the end of week two when SWIM's girlfriend began to exhibit symptoms of a mild infection/fever (high temperature, abdominal pain, dark urine, cold sweats/chills). In under 2 days her condition rapidly deteriorated, displaying all the classic symptoms associated with a viral infection. This marked her first visit to the ER. Upon arrival, UA analysis showed no signs of kidney or bladder infection(ER doctor decided blood work was not necessary, why this decision was made is still a mystery to me). She was then told that she likely had a virus and it should be no more than 3-4 day for symptoms to subside. Needless to say her symptoms did not subside, but rather progressed into all the classical symptoms associated with hepatitis (yellowing of the eyes and skin, high fever, sharp abdominal pain, nausea, loss of appetite, vomiting). Upon arrival at the ER, SWIM asked blood work be done, revealing a reduced white blood cell count and enzymes elevated to six times a normal level) This resulting in a new diagnosis describing what "must be a virus attacking her liver" causing intrahepatic cholestasis. Acting on what can only be described as a hunch, SWIM decided to mention the recent use of herbal supplements to the ER doctor. The ER doctor immediately asked if Kratom was said herb, as there had recently been several cases where patients experienced similar experiences of mild to serious liver injury. Obviously this was enough to convince SWIM to never think of using kratom again and warn others wanting to try kratom to proceed with extreme caution. In all, this experienced has left SWIM's girlfriend absent from work 2 full weeks, unable to keep food down for 9 of those days, severe insomnia, and worse yet, a liver rot with scar tissue. That said the defining low point in all this was by far waiting next to her bed in the ER and receiving the horrifing news that her liver is failing, but no one had an explanation as to why it was failing..heavy.

    Some info:
    SWIM and his girlfriend both were clear of all other substances that might cause liver damage, no drugs, not even one advil. In addition to this, SWIM's girlfriend had no pre existing liver conditions or hereditary issues that may have effected the doctors assertion that kratom had likely been the source of toxicity.

    While there is no conclusive way to prove that Kratom was the only culprit leading to her near liver failure, it is also impossible to prove that Kratom is in any way "SAFE" for human consumption. This leading me to the obvious question, why is it so many people are making completely subjective and often asinine assertions that Kratom couldn't possibly be causing these numerous instances of liver damage? These posts defending Kratom as a miracle drug are often backed up with infomation pulled directly from a wholesale website, or even worse, posting statements like "it was probably not the kratom, kratom is totally safe, no one has even died from it" and often without a shred of evidence that to support such a statement!?

    (to which I must ask, how likely is it that a death caused by acute liver failure due to a "virus" was misdiagnosed, and actually caused by a toxic reaction to the kratom being ingested . certainly something to think about)

    That said, I will agree with the herbs proponents and assert that kratom is likely safe for the majority of users as SWIM had no observable ill effects form its use, just the mild withdrawal after cessation. However, just because something is not obviously dangerous to a majority of users, does not mean that it qualifies as a miracle drug. I feel that Kratom should be approached with the highest levels of caution by new users and those who have been using it for moderate durations, as similar cases of liver damage have been linked to doses as small as 2-3g. (anecdotal yes, worth ignoring entirely, NO)


    Finally, to those currently plotting a long winded rebuttal in defense of Kratom, often by claiming tylenol or alcohol is the root cause, or by trying to educate the bluelight community in the difference between causal relationships and correlation) Instead, you should first test this logic: "Because this is a forum serving the explicit purpose of harm reduction among users and not protecting endangered herbs from the FDA, shouldn't we take due diligence in protecting others from the potentially CATASTROPHIC reaction some users are experiencing after ingesting Kratom?" or the shorthand being "Is protecting a mild buzz worth someones life"


    TLR If you are taking the herbal supplement Kratom and experience any symptoms similar to that of hepatitis you should stop using the herb immediately, go to the hospital and get a blood test. Your Liver may be about to fail.

    Here is some further reading, anecdotal experiences are easily found by searching google for "kratom" and "liver"together.
    http://link.springer.com/article/10....LI=true#page-1
    http://w
    ww.youblisher.com/p/373689-Borneo-Kratom/

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...00483X08003120
    http://journals.lww.com/drug-monitor...lism_of.4.aspx
    http://link.springer.com/article/10....181-011-0202-2


    And in one final note, if you are reading this on a phone in the Lobby at an ER, Don't panic, just be honest with the doctors about what chemicals may be in your system.
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    #2
    Bluelighter
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    Some of those references are behind passwords and one is from 1975, I haven't got my academic password to hand and am off to work shortly but I will have a read of the serious academic studies later.

    For the record, 400 Americans die each year from Penicillin (truly a miracle drug) allergy, so there is a chance indeed that kratom may be dangerous to a small number of individuals, it's difficult to make a proper assessment without knowing more facts, I think.

    I am sorry to hear about your girlfriend and hope she makes a full recovery.

    I used kratom on and off for over 8 years, at times very heavily, and have no problems. I'll wait for others' views with interest!

    ETA: SWIM etc not used here!
    Last edited by Hedonistica; 06-10-2014 at 13:28. Reason: new poster advice
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    #3
    I've been using Kratom for about 6 years on and off without any problems. On average I have one Kratom day every couple of weeks and always enjoy.
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    #4
    Bluelighter VitamaN's Avatar
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    Some people just can't handle certain chems. My aunt took a low dose of oxy and couldnt breathe ...
    Ive heard of someone taking a handful of hydros and got APAP poisoning immediately. I use to take that same dose every day. Its so subjective. One would think that Kratom would hold less risk to the liver but everyone is so different you just can't be certain until/unless you try and unfortunately some people try and die.
    Hell I knew a guy who messed his liver up taking niacin ...its a friggin vitamin! No one's safe. We just try. Bluelight helps.
    Thanks for the info.
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    #5
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    I've had a read through some of the links and although kratom is mentioned, there is not really any connection being made with kratom and hepatoxicity at all, in some of the articles kratom is just mentioned among other substances. I think one says something about cytotoxicity in rats pumped full of insane doses of extract, but I question the ethics of such studies anyway.

    Even peanuts kill, but not often in the grand scheme of things!
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    #6
    Still though,thanks for the heads up OP.As a chronic pain patient with Hep C and who ALWAYS runs out of my perc 10/325 script a week or so early,I was seriously considering trying a red vein (purportedly more sedating and opiate like) strain of kratom to supplement my prescription.Now I have advanced warning of potentially dangerous hepatic effects.Gives me something to consider and a possible explanation if I get jaundice type symptoms.Luckily,this seems to be a rarity as this is the first instance I'm hearing of it.Hope your girlfriend is okay.
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    #7
    I have been using kratom for a year when norcos are not available. Never had problems but just like everyone has said, we are all different. These are risks that we deal with everyday. Thanks for the.info OP
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    #8
    I have been using kratom for roughly a year. I would say 4/7 days steadily. No problems

    My girlfriend got herself off of methadone with kratom and has been using daily for a year. No problems.

    I spoke to the iraqi herbal salesman and holistic healer about kratom, he does not carry it but he said people 'back home' have been using it for decades for a lot of things. He said for what cannabis is for the ailments it aids, kratom is for a number of other ailments. He said that if I am using it recreationally (I am) that I should not use for more than 3 months daily or else I could experience "discomfort". I used for three months straight and stopped. No noted withdrawal or other side effects.

    I dont feel the need like others to rub your back and say "but of course everyone is different" They are. That is true, but in the world we live in, if doctors could blame a LEGAL drug that their kids could buy for an illness there would be a billboard and a 6 o'clock special in every town. I am not saying that what happened to your girlfriend wasn't kratom, it very well may have been, but in the name of harm reduction I am not giving it much thought PERSONALLY because I have been using heavily and have had a lot of tests done on me in terms of blood tests and organ function. I have seen its effect on others who use even heavier than I do. I have spoken to medical professionals and holistic healers and have been given a thumbs up by all of them.

    I once threw up for several days non stop and the only thing that helped was hot showers, this was long before my kratom use... I was told I had cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome. There is a thread on here about it. 8 doctors blamed the weed and told me it had to stop. I scratched my head and wondered how fucking daft these people were until a REAL doctor came in and told me that they simply didnt know what was causing the illness and that CHS is a crock of shit and doesnt actually exist (which I fully believe) and that it is just an easy answer to free up another bed and send you home. Our bodies live off of cannabinoids and thats what me and the real doctor got to laugh about together. He told me that the Zofran I was given for nausea is stolen by the hungover burnt out doctors so they dont puke doing their rounds. Yet the pills and $20 for people being killed by chemo. Doctors are full of shit and you should be looking at the fuckers who "diagnosed" this with a cocked eye... I just really feel that whatever COULD have caused this could still be a part of her life and kratom got scape goated.

    I hope she is ok, keep getting tests done even if she feels great and keep us posted if you can.
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    #9
    Follow up info & thank you for for the kind words/concern, she is fine now!

    Doctor_Ew420, Three weeks since her bout at the hospital, her liver enzymes have returned to only slightly above what is normal. The only long term(3+weeks) physical symptoms were a lack of appetite and some insomnia, overall we are just glad this experience did not prove to be super debilitating.
    I do doubt that the doctor was searching for an explanation by labeling kratom as the contributing factor, as he was the one who first suggested it, I had only mentioned herbal supplements at that point. In addition to this, her condition has steadily improved, starting almost exactly 8 hours after her last dose. I will agree that there is a tendency among physicians to blame anything not approved by the FDA for easy explanation, as true with CHS (total bullshit). But in terms of harm reduction, you really can never be too careful, especially when there is evidence available that clearly points to a connection, (Kapp, clausen 2011). But I guess just providing the anecdotal evidence of a link is sufficient for me. I certainly wish I had read something about this when symptoms first appeared, two doses could have been avoided and imo her liver damage could have been avoided as a result. Overall, I believe the evidence showing a connection between kratom use and liver damage is significant, and falls outside the realm of being a statistical aberration. Thus warranting a word of caution to those willing to consume a substance already labeled "not for human consumption" or "research purpose only"

    On a side note, I feel a distinction should be made between the advice provided by holistic healers/salesmen and advice coming from a physician. Its fine to take a doctors word with a grain of salt, but if so, anyone directly benefiting off the sales of a substance should probably be ignored. After all, doctors do not profit directly from any advice given, they also form their opinions in scientific fact. Im not saying all homeopathic medicine is psudoscience. But the range of rationals used by holistic healers is rarely in accordance with the discipline of modern health sciences.
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    #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by downerhead View Post
    Still though,thanks for the heads up OP.As a chronic pain patient with Hep C and who ALWAYS runs out of my perc 10/325 script a week or so early,I was seriously considering trying a red vein (purportedly more sedating and opiate like) strain of kratom to supplement my prescription.Now I have advanced warning of potentially dangerous hepatic effects.Gives me something to consider and a possible explanation if I get jaundice type symptoms.Luckily,this seems to be a rarity as this is the first instance I'm hearing of it.Hope your girlfriend is okay.
    I know this is off-topic but have you ever discussed being prescribed 10mg oxy ir rather than the percocet? I would just think that the doctor would want you to stay clear of anything that may damage your liver considering you have hep C.

    I know it's a low dose of acetaminophen but I would still consider doing a CWE if you can't get switched to the oxy ir.
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommyboy View Post
    I know this is off-topic but have you ever discussed being prescribed 10mg oxy ir rather than the percocet? I would just think that the doctor would want you to stay clear of anything that may damage your liver considering you have hep C.

    I know it's a low dose of acetaminophen but I would still consider doing a CWE if you can't get switched to the oxy ir.
    I thought this exact same thing when I read his post too.
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    #12
    Again, the holistic healer does not deal in kratom, but as soon as I mentioned it his face lit up and he was happy to explain the benefits. He does not profit from kratom and did not profit by saying this to me. Infact, he could have profited by saying "no kratom is no good, take this"
    Physicians are exactly the people I have spoken to. One clinic doctor (some of the best there are) and my family doctor.

    My point is that... Yes everyone suffering from this bullshit CHS is a user of marijuana... Is marijuana to blame or is it lifestyle/diet etc? I have never seen kratom do any bad and that is why it is hard to side with the single doctor that told you this. Did kratom have something to do with it? Almost definitely!! But what I am trying to say is that the problem could still be there. I was told I have CHS. I smoke like a fucking chimney still so that means to me... that they did not find out what was wrong with me and it could happen again.
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    #13
    I'm less than certain the Kratom is entirely safe. I'd been on tramadol for a year following an accident and decided to discontinue the 100 to 150 mg a day I was taking. I first weaned off the tramadol and there wasn't much of a fuss stopping. A few days of chills and restlessness. So I ordered Kratom caps and was taking 6 of the large caps a day. I began in late October and gradually experienced skin itching, stomach and abdominal cramps. At first I thought it might residual effects from the tramadol withdrawl but the symptoms got worse. I changed diet to better deal with the symptoms but nothing I tried worked. By Thanksgiving I was ready to go to an internist convinced I had Crones disease. The symptoms spread up into the chest and I stopped taking the Kratom. After two or three days symptoms were subsiding and I tried Kratom again to see if the symptoms would return and they did. The last round was pretty severe and I stopped again for the last time.

    I did at first accept the general idea that Kratom is safe and nontoxic. I delayed for a few weeks further researching whether others have had similar problems and there are enough to give pause to a blanket statement that Kratom is across the board OK. I sense that had I continued use I would have had organ damage. Use with caution!
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    #14
    I have been using Kratom very heavily for 3 months now. I have been having terrible leg cramps in my left leg. Then last week I developed a severe infection that suddenly occurred on the same leg in a different spot, cellulitis. I just got out of the ER and they said they couldn't link it with a spider bite, although I really think that's what caused it. However, I did read that circulation problems in the legs can cause severe infections to occur randomly!? I had no idea your circulation had anything to do with cellulitis which is normally caused by "staph" bacteria. I've never had a spontaneous infection in my life. I've been taking Bali Kratom (same as user above mentioned his girlfriend was taking.)

    This is the first time in my life I've used Bali, I've always taken Mang Da for months at a time and never had any health problems. I don't have any evidence to indicate Kratom is dangerous, but I'm documenting this case for a reference.

    I notice Kratom effects my circulation very strongly and causes vasoconstriction and vasodilation both, the vasoconstriction occurs strongly after dosing, and the vasodilation occurs 8 hours post dose, and then after withdrawal sets in, my blood pressure gets very high for weeks. It has a very powerful impact on circulation which has been linked with Cellulitis infections which are infections caused by Staph bacteria under the skin, and can lead to severe complications. What's interesting about Cellulitis is that they can occur spontaneously on people with poor circulation.

    In order to be 100% accurate, I have been using 5mg of Dexedrine per day for about 40 days as well. This was in addition to the Kratom, daily. Both were taken Daily. I was taking 15 grams of Kratom daily, in the form of ground up Bali Leaf either in capsules or water. The two together seem to be a very dangerous mix causing more vasoconstriction than either one combined.

    One final note. The responses to the original poster are very immature, and cutting. They don't contribute any valuable information. Claiming that people die from other chemicals isn't relevant to the discussion of Kratom. Liver failure from Kratom is not the same as taking opiates when you have no tolerance or taking a known liver destroying chemical like Tylenol and being surprised that it caused liver failure. The original user mentioned a case of very rapid onset of liver failue from Kratom and this is something we should be open to researching. The user specifically asked to avoid defensive responses, and that's all anyone responded with?

    We cannot possibly group all strains of Kratom together. Because Kratom comes from 3rd world countries, all batches are going to be different. Some batches from certain parts of the world could be contaminated with chemicals, pesticides, heavy metals or other poisonous substances. Some Kratom could be absolutely fatal, some might be very nutrient rich and healthy. Think of a tree growing wild in the woods, and imagine how different regions have different toxic compounds from nearby spills, farms, contamination, etc. Kratom is a tree.

    Also in fish species, the longer they live, the more mercury they have. It's likely that the longer a plant lives, the more time it has to absorb heavy metals or poisons?

    My personal opinion is that some strains of Kratom may be dangerous, because we are consuming orally. When you take something orally, it has to pass straight to the liver before it can go into the blood stream. When you smoke something or even IV something, it goes straight into the blood stream, and it's a lot less likely to cause liver problems. When you eat something, you absorb 100% of the toxins present in the plant material, and your liver can also convert some chemicals into more toxic chemicals.

    Steroids actually cause liver failure if taken orally, but if injected into the blood, they do not cause liver failure. Something to keep in mind. This is why the Kratom discussion is important, it's a plant that is consumed orally. Perhaps some strains simply are not safe, while others are?

    In my case I had to go to the ER from random Cellulitis. It's the first infection I've ever had randomly occur on my leg, and I was taking a lot of Bali Kratom every 4 hours for months now. It's likely NOT the cause, but I wanted to document it.
    Last edited by mechanic_x; 06-03-2016 at 01:10.
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mechanic_x View Post
    I have been using Kratom very heavily for 3 months now. I have been having terrible leg cramps in my left leg. Then last week I developed a severe infection that suddenly occurred on the same leg in a different spot, cellulitis. I just got out of the ER and they said they couldn't link it with a spider bite, although I really think that's what caused it. However, I did read that circulation problems in the legs can cause severe infections to occur randomly!? I had no idea your circulation had anything to do with cellulitis which is normally caused by "staph" bacteria. I've never had a spontaneous infection in my life. I've been taking Bali Kratom (same as user above mentioned his girlfriend was taking.)

    This is the first time in my life I've used Bali, I've always taken Mang Da for months at a time and never had any health problems. I don't have any evidence to indicate Kratom is dangerous, but I'm documenting this case for a reference.

    I notice Kratom effects my circulation very strongly and causes vasoconstriction and vasodilation both, the vasoconstriction occurs strongly after dosing, and the vasodilation occurs 8 hours post dose, and then after withdrawal sets in, my blood pressure gets very high for weeks. It has a very powerful impact on circulation which has been linked with Cellulitis infections which are infections caused by Staph bacteria under the skin, and can lead to severe complications. What's interesting about Cellulitis is that they can occur spontaneously on people with poor circulation.

    In order to be 100% accurate, I have been using 5mg of Dexedrine per day for about 40 days as well. This was in addition to the Kratom, daily. Both were taken Daily. I was taking 15 grams of Kratom daily, in the form of ground up Bali Leaf either in capsules or water. The two together seem to be a very dangerous mix causing more vasoconstriction than either one combined.

    One final note. The responses to the original poster are very immature, and cutting. They don't contribute any valuable information. Claiming that people die from other chemicals isn't relevant to the discussion of Kratom. Liver failure from Kratom is not the same as taking opiates when you have no tolerance or taking a known liver destroying chemical like Tylenol and being surprised that it caused liver failure. The original user mentioned a case of very rapid onset of liver failue from Kratom and this is something we should be open to researching. The user specifically asked to avoid defensive responses, and that's all anyone responded with?

    We cannot possibly group all strains of Kratom together. Because Kratom comes from 3rd world countries, all batches are going to be different. Some batches from certain parts of the world could be contaminated with chemicals, pesticides, heavy metals or other poisonous substances. Some Kratom could be absolutely fatal, some might be very nutrient rich and healthy. Think of a tree growing wild in the woods, and imagine how different regions have different toxic compounds from nearby spills, farms, contamination, etc. Kratom is a tree.

    Also in fish species, the longer they live, the more mercury they have. It's likely that the longer a plant lives, the more time it has to absorb heavy metals or poisons?

    My personal opinion is that some strains of Kratom may be dangerous, because we are consuming orally. When you take something orally, it has to pass straight to the liver before it can go into the blood stream. When you smoke something or even IV something, it goes straight into the blood stream, and it's a lot less likely to cause liver problems. When you eat something, you absorb 100% of the toxins present in the plant material, and your liver can also convert some chemicals into more toxic chemicals.

    Steroids actually cause liver failure if taken orally, but if injected into the blood, they do not cause liver failure. Something to keep in mind. This is why the Kratom discussion is important, it's a plant that is consumed orally. Perhaps some strains simply are not safe, while others are?

    In my case I had to go to the ER from random Cellulitis. It's the first infection I've ever had randomly occur on my leg, and I was taking a lot of Bali Kratom every 4 hours for months now. It's likely NOT the cause, but I wanted to document it.
    Sorry to hear about your cellulitis.

    I didn't know Kratom could do that.

    It is stupid how some people try to say that Kratom can't be dangerous.

    It's definitely been documented that for whatever reason some people respond VERY badly to Kratom and sometimes even fatally.

    I wish there was some way we could identify the problem and someone interested in using could find out ahead of time if they are susceptible.

    Perhaps it's some kind of allergy or lack of a certain liver enzyme like how many Asians cannot metabolize alcohol??

    As for the combo of Dexadrine and Kratom being dangerous I'm not sure if the combo is inherently dangerous in of itself or if it's just a risk cause both are stimulants.

    I've myself combined Dexadrine with Kratom several times and really enjoy it, but I use VERY small doses of Dexadrine, usually only 2.5mgs and NEVER more than 5mgs and usually also take Klonopin so that probably lowers BP and makes it safer.

    I haven't noticed bad effects from the combo other than getting a bit overstimluated.

    I'd think that the stronger the stimulant the worse idea it would be to combine it with Kratom and I'd think a Coke/Kratom or Meth/Kratom combo would be MUCH more dangerous than a Dex/Kratom combo.

    I'm just guessing that the two aren't like water and electricity or like combining two very strong CNS depressants like Heroin and benzos, but rather they just both speed up the CNS, but who knows, maybe they are an inherently bad combo.

    As far as your comments on some strains of Kratom being possibly more dangerous than others, what I'm thinking is that it's probably not the difference in STRAINS that causes issues but the difference in BATCHES, sources or VENDORS.

    People like Sekio have done tests showing that the alkaloid composition from one strain to the next are usually not all that different so reactions to two strains FROM THE SAME SOURCE will probably not vary all that much.

    But some sources being shady is a definite concern IMO.

    We don't know if the plants were sprayed with pesticides or someone with dirty hands handled the batch.

    I just don't think the difference in strains is usually the issue with these negative interactions though.

    If you react well to one strain from the same vendor you will probably react fine to another strain from the same vendor IMO.

    And while you didn't really mention this I wanted to mention that I recently found out that Kratom BY ITSELF has no negative effect on my blood pressure, or at least it didn't the other day even though somehow I thought it was going to raise my BP.

    My blood pressure WHILE OFF KRATOM is usually healthy, around 120/80 or 120/70 on a good day.

    The other day I'd actually had a larger than usual dose of Kratom so that I was sedated rather than stimulated and had to go to the doctor for something so I had my blood pressure taken while on it and it was 120/68...VERY healthy low blood pressure.

    Actually I think it LOWERED my BP because I was sedated, but my guess is if I had not been on it it would have only been slightly higher...maybe like 120/70.

    I think the combo of stimulating and sedating alkaloids MIGHT keep blood pressure levels stable...BUT that's not accounting for when mixed with a stimulant like Dexadrine......
    Last edited by Mycophile; 06-03-2016 at 05:29.
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlov22 View Post
    I used kratom daily as a subsitute for oxy a few years ago. After about 2-3 weeks of daily use I suddenly had a sharp pain in my stomach but didn't experience and fever or other symptoms. I went to the doctor and he had blood tests done, which showed abnormal enzyme levels in my liver. Never told him anything about the kratom I had been taking I knew that was definetly the cause though. He thought it was very strange and wanted to get more blood work done the following week which came back normal.I would never take kratom again, and to anyone that does be careful
    Abnormal liver enzymes or just elevated liver enzymes??

    You know alcohol raises your liver enzymes also right??
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    #17
    Bluelighter weekend addiction's Avatar
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    I used kratom regularly back in 2010 as well as much heavier between 2014-15 (eating an ounce a day or big 17 gram doses at times). I did plenty of drinking and drugs at the time too. Still never had any health problem all my liver count everything is normal. Probably the most benign drug I've abused and I used easy 2 grand worth buying 1-200 dollar packs at a time.
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    #18
    I don't know to me I just would never trust ordering a substance from an unknown person over the Internet. Who knows what the hell they put in it. Unless I see it being made from the plant itself, no way. I especially don't know if I could trust the Iraqi holistic healer, but I'm extremely paranoid.
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Man in the Dark View Post
    I don't know to me I just would never trust ordering a substance from an unknown person over the Internet. Who knows what the hell they put in it. Unless I see it being made from the plant itself, no way. I especially don't know if I could trust the Iraqi holistic healer, but I'm extremely paranoid.
    Yeah man that's a bit paranoid.

    Ordering Kratom is just not a big deal.

    I've never heard of vendors just putting random shit in it.

    I mean you have extracts but you know what you are asking for with those.

    All you need is to ask around and buy from a vendor with a good reputation.

    I'm not going to name any as that is against the rules but have you ever ordered Kratom before??

    Because from the way you are talking it sounds like you haven't.

    It's very easy to find a reliable safe vendor on the internet and be about 99% sure they aren't putting random shit in it.
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    #20
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    There have been plenty of instances come to light of people having bad reactions to kratom. It does seem to be related to individual metabolism, but i'm not sure exactly how well proven that hypothesis is.

    Given that kratom is unregulated as a medicinal herb, i would say that "trust" in a vendor is somewhat complacent, as far as HR goes. Quality control is fairly non-existent, as far as i know?

    I would say though, that a vendor having few instances of bad reactions is simply not proof of bad reactions ever occurring.
    Instances of people having adverse health reactions need to be taken seriously, for the sake of users' health and wellbeing. It isn't as if these reports are a scare campaign, or completely undocumented.

    Buyer beware, in other words.
    A herb having a generally good safety profile does not prove it is always safe for everyone - and vendors themselves do not have total control of what they sell, as they are essentially middle-men.
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