Traditional means of maintaining sobriety VS Finding a new way DISCUSSION

[bcfly7x7]

Thanks for all the posts. Im waiting to hear more about the Van Wijk. Then im going to see if its possible to combine some form of all of these then post it.

I'm sure it won't be anywhere near perfect but maybe we could retool it and see what other's think. Either way, I think it is pretty clear that the current system doesn't work for most. There is no harm it trying to look at things from a different angle. We just want to help more than the status quo.

Much thanks to all posters.

Bob

 

[neversickanymore]

The addiction thread is an informative thread that presents current thinking about addiction; its main goals were to try and define addiction, explore the cycle of addiction, differentiate between addiction and physical dependence and acute and post acute withdrawal they symtoms of each. I did not include much about treatment in that one.

There are links on post 18 of this thread that also relate to buddhist recovery.

Alternate Versions and Added Steps to the 12 Steps

Buddhism is exactly what will work for addiction treatment.. Addiction is an encumberment. Nothing better for curing and encumbering than enlightenment.

Im working at simplifying the approach I took into an easy understood and transferable process. It certainly needs to be undertaken in a specific order or the results will not be positive. I have begun sharing parts of it with a few people so I can see if it indeed works for them as well and can try and formulate easy transfer and obtain if they recieve the same amazing benefits that I have. When I can ascertain that this will work for others like it worked for me I will share whats up. I do not feal comfortable sharing it all untill I make sure it works for others. Its just to dangerous and the scientist in me says the results need to be tested and duplicated.

 

[phactor]

Improvements to treatment for drug addiction? Really?

I'm not aware of any changes in the status quo that has resulted in a significant improvement to the rate of people getting their lives back on track myself. Out of personal interest (rather than it being a challenge to your statement) what are these improvements?

All sorts of things:

The most recent is the inclusion of DBT, before that CBT. The inclusion of Family Therapy sessions was a big one of course. Many treatment professionals are now much more willing to allow patients to try things like SMART, and also realize that there are some patients that just might not jive with AA/NA. Shit, I will straight up tell you that I personally find AA to be filled with old white men, who are conservative. I myself am a white man, but I don't mesh well in AA, so I do NA because its more diverse. If this is the case, patients are encouraged to find other support groups and volunteer. Volunteering is a great way to step "out of self" and I tend to find that gets people ready for all sorts of changes.

Another huge change over the past decade are of course GLBT focused services, before that women's issues were not addressed really either. One on One therapy in general is relatively recent. Over the past 15 years or so, group therapy has undergone some changes as well. You have to remember, that for a long time Social Workers and the like didn't really see the need to really research and document the methods that we use. It was just taught and people developed there own styles. Now, we have actual classes and study things like Family Practice, Individual Practice and Group Practice.



Then we get into medication, even Hazelden is now prescribing Suboxone. 2 decades ago, places were hesitant to prescribe SSRIs. Medications like Campral are also being used more frequently.

Partial Hospitalization Programs (which I really like) are basically dead, inpatient is fading out (huge mistake), IOP is what is pushed now. But that is due to insurance issues.

My final thought will be on standards. They didn't really exist until recently. Finally, remember, the acknowledgement that addiction is a disease is actually pretty new at the end of the day. And its really only being fully accepted now.

This stuff might not be totally obvious on the surface, and as I keep saying, the model that is used is what works at the current time. But that model has been under some tremendous change, especially over the past two decades.

Just on a sidenote: I had a person I did an assessment on yesterday:

1. She has 2 DUI charges, 2 Possession Charges.

2. She has failed several drug tests since getting released from prison

3. Came in unscheduled yesterday, saying she tested positive for THC for her probation officer. I was almost 100 percent sure she was under the influence of opiates. She also didn't mention that her PO also had the same suspicions and her test showed recent opiate use.

4. She repeatedly kept telling me that the questions I was asking "made it seem like she had a problem", I told her they were just questions on a sheet we ask everyone and that its up to her ultimately to decide if she has a problem or not.

5. I told her we were going to have to urine screen her, she flipped out because "my PO already did that!". Ultimately she refused to go, so it came up positive. Keep in mind this was right after she told me "I really have to use the bathroom!". (I obviously do not do the urine screenings for women)

6. After all of this, she walked away insisting she does not have a problem. Think about how strong denial can be in some people. It is so hard to get people to realize they are in denial.

The best way for most is to be around other addicts so they can see they are not alone and that the stories they share all have common elements. That is why one on one sessions alone tend to not be effective for addicts.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

I've got to say that the notion of involving family in treatment, getting recovering addicts to do volunteer work isn't exactly a new idea and to me doesn't represent much person common sense. I would also strongly contest whether whacking a whole generation of people on SSRIs (which is what is happening) is a good idea that actually represents a real benefit to the patient (although clearly there are more extreme cases where anti-depressants are needed as a short term solution to a dangerous situation).

I like that eight steps model, it definitely represents a series of important jumps that I would agree are important and can be beneficial to process of recovery.

 

[phactor]

Well it is a recent idea and wasn't involved in treatment on a large scale until recently. Again, there are lots of changes that occur that you will only realize working in the field. As for SSRIs, most people are depressed when coming off or drugs and many have been self medicating. If an SSRI helps prevent a relapse and/or depression (which studies shows it helps do) then it is going to be used. SSRIs are pretty safe and there is nothing wrong with taking them.

If you disagree with the current treatment model, I'd assume that you would be more inclined to think it is stagnate.

 

[bcfly7x7]

Well it is a recent idea and wasn't involved in treatment on a large scale until recently. Again, there are lots of changes that occur that you will only realize working in the field. As for SSRIs, most people are depressed when coming off or drugs and many have been self medicating. If an SSRI helps prevent a relapse and/or depression (which studies shows it helps do) then it is going to be used. SSRIs are pretty safe and there is nothing wrong with taking them.

Ok this is the very point most of us are trying to make. Ironically phactor, you pointed it out by saying "there are lots of changes that occur that you will only realize working in the field".

So why do the people in need seem to indicate that they see very little progress. If the focus is the addict and maintaining sobriety, why be so vague with analysis. Is it that you think a recent recovering addict can't comprehend your higher level of thinking?

If anything, there should be more direct implementation of said advances, but to site a lot is changing in the past two decades, this doesn't appear to be groundbreaking in the least. Hence addicts searching for another way, something better because the current system is failing. If the success rate as you pointed out is less than %40, more like %25, then maybe those currently treating addiction should look at themselves and maybe say this just isn't good enough. We need to radically change to get our success rate to at least a positive number.

An addict that makes the decision to get clean and has detoxed and gone through rehab moreover wants nothing more than to be a better person. This first step is the hardest for an addict, I don't care what anyone says, its true.

Be bold, be willing to go against the grain. Rather than continuing to defend a program that fails most. Thus the point of this thread. Why is it the addict continually says the current agenda doesn't work for me, but professional's continue to say this is basically the only choice? Could being outspoken cause a ripple, yes, but this is what we, who status quo doesn't work for, are looking for and like it or not, it's any overwhelming majority.

Thank you for your points, it will help in assessing, coming from a professional.

Sincerely,

Bob

 

[phactor]

Ok this is the very point most of us are trying to make. Ironically phactor, you pointed it out by saying "there are lots of changes that occur that you will only realize working in the field".

So why do the people in need seem to indicate that they see very little progress. If the focus is the addict and maintaining sobriety, why be so vague with analysis. Is it that you think a recent recovering addict can't comprehend your higher level of thinking?

If anything, there should be more direct implementation of said advances, but to site a lot is changing in the past two decades, this doesn't appear to be groundbreaking in the least. Hence addicts searching for another way, something better because the current system is failing. If the success rate as you pointed out is less than %40, more like %25, then maybe those currently treating addiction should look at themselves and maybe say this just isn't good enough. We need to radically change to get our success rate to at least a positive number.

An addict that makes the decision to get clean and has detoxed and gone through rehab moreover wants nothing more than to be a better person. This first step is the hardest for an addict, I don't care what anyone says, its true.

Be bold, be willing to go against the grain. Rather than continuing to defend a program that fails most. Thus the point of this thread. Why is it the addict continually says the current agenda doesn't work for me, but professional's continue to say this is basically the only choice? Could being outspoken cause a ripple, yes, but this is what we, who status quo doesn't work for, are looking for and like it or not, it's any overwhelming majority.

Thank you for your points, it will help in assessing, coming from a professional.

Sincerely,

Bob

1. That is the nature of many types of therapy. For example: Its difficult to understand how monumental the inclusion of things like CBT/DBT are unless you use it and apply it to other people and see how it impacts them daily. Something like Suboxone is a massive difference then before. If you are interested, try to familiarize yourself with treatment through the years. Remember, it wasn't so long ago that people were locked up in sanitariums and considered essentially "insane". The fact that professionals notice the changes while others do not is common in many fields. Compare treatment in the 1980s per say vs today. Hell even the 1990s. If you study treatment methods, you will know its history more then a lay person, thus notice changes.

2. Again, relapse happens all the time. It isn't the fault of the treatment model. It doesn't "fail most". If a person dies of cancer after receiving chemo is it the fault of the doctor or chemo?

3. I do go against the grain in some respects, but I also operate inside the model that works. I support this model, so I don't really want to radically alter it because again, we know it works. If something else comes along that is proven to work better then I will adopt that.

Anyways, I think I have gone as far as I would like in this discussion.

 

[bcfly7x7]

2. Again, relapse happens all the time. It isn't the fault of the treatment model. It doesn't "fail most". If a person dies of cancer after receiving chemo is it the fault of the doctor or chemo?

3. I do go against the grain in some respects, but I also operate inside the model that works. I support this model, so I don't really want to radically alter it because again, we know it works. If something else comes along that is proven to work better then I will adopt that.

Anyways, I think I have gone as far as I would like in this discussion.

Phactor,

Please understand this is not a personal attack on you, I'm really happy you are posting to this thread because it gives a counterpoint.

I don't think point #2 is a fair assessment. This could be a combo of both, but that is an unknown variable.

As far as suboxone goes, I fully agree that this is good for maintenance, or quick detox. People can abuse subs, the same as oxy.

We know the current system is the best out there, currently. I'd love to hear idea's from you on what you believe could/should be changed in the structure as it sits. What gains would you go against, I know you mentioned SSRI, but I'm talking about being of all meds. IYO, is it possible to get the relapse rate below 50% without outside medications included in that 50%?

I commend you for wanting to help others avoid the pitfalls of relapse.

Bob

 

[neversickanymore]

This is again not a personal attack on the fellowships.. I respect and enjoy positive aspects of their approach a great deal.

Is the reason bringing up conflicts with the fellowship approach with strong fellowship members so difficult because we can see a moral and value transfer were the recovering addict takes on the morals and the values of the fellowship, so then when someone explores perceived shortcomings of the fellowships it is taken as personal attack or is reacted to with high emotion.

I really hesitated to even bring this up as I was very worried that this had a great chance of evolving into a fellowship against non fellowship approach and I hope this does not become the case as i belive in the great positive nature of this thread.

If anyone agrees with my take then how could this contribute to the very negative results experienced by relapse from fellowship members?

 

[njirem]

The Circles Van Dijk

Ive been asked to explain more about The Circles Van Dijk.

Fist: as being Dutch i am not English, though i can understand and talk the language pretty well, writing is a different story, ill try my best, when you need clarification, just let me know (ill use an online dictionary )

Some treatment faiscilities in The Netherlands use a programma that is based on The Circles van Dijk, as did mine.
It is the cornerstone of a 7-step programme, and it helped me tremendously.
The start of the programma is writing your life-story, further along the road comes practical tools like a crisis-handling plan (what to do, what to think, what not to do and not to think when you notice yourself slipping and heading for a crisis, crisis could mean a relapse and/or suicidal ideation/psychosis, to get yourself back to 'green' and do not go to 'red'.) social orientation, meaning and day/week structure.
The programme includes: running therapy, psycho motoric therapy, psycho-education, music therapy, cooking our own meals and doing our own croceries, cleaning the fascility and own bedroom, systemtherapy (involving family/friend/evironment), walking, social skill training, watching the news and the rest that i forget.
From breakfast till dinner, staff is present and part of the group, the eat the food we cook and drink the coffee we make.
It really is a group process and it mirrors a healthy home situation and working evironment (no shorts/sandals untill after 20.00, then its time to relax, when you join breakfast in your pyama you arent welcome)

The circles van Dijk, the 5 (or 6) vicious circles of addiction.

Professor dr. Kuno van Dijk, professor psychiatry in the city of Groningen, The Netherlands, made a model of the vicious circels of addiction in the late '70s.
This model offers the possibilty to understand more about the term addiction.
The model isn't really about 'the cause' of addiction, but it revolves around the factors that maintain addiction.

Early in time it was thought that addiction could stop by taking away one problem, nowadays the realisation is that there is almost never one specific cause, addiction and the related behaviour is the outcome of several factors (the five circles, see diagram)

All the factors play together, as cogwheels that keep eachother in movement..
Your addiction (substance) has an interaction with your physical condition, tolerance, withdrawal symptoms (pharmacologigy), social contacts and psychiatric wellbeing.
Ive added invironment, since where and how you live has a major impact as well.

By assuming this, threatment doesnt only involve quiting substance abuse, but also (re)building a social network, stabalising your pshychiatric wellbeing and improving physical condition.

If you do not adress all the cogwheels, there is a great danger you cannot maintain controle over your addiction and relapse.
See it like this, when there is one cogwheel still turning, all the wheels you had shut down, will start turning again.
The center focus is addiction/substance, but when you for example do not work on a social safety net, and let it keep turning, the others will start to turn again, including the substance wheel.
A real vicious circle.



In this light, no threatment programme is the same, as we are all different with different needs and curcomstances, resposibilities and abilities.

My threatment had a main focus on quitting substance abuse, physical excersise, social network, daytime activities and trauma counceling.
As being quite mature and had allready been working for a long time, i could go home in the weekends and walk in and out the building freely.
Other clients have different needs and problems.
Like this one girl, ill call her Anna, suffering from a clinical depression and suicidal ideation combined with addiction to medication, was not to be trusted alone outside, as she had a history of 'snapping' and either trying to kill herself or run away, apart from that she had to withdrawl for a year, as she was on a dozen of meds.
She would go outside with somebody else and had to build up going alone slowly over the course of months, her focus was stabilisation, detox and getting out of the misery depression is.

This concept makes no threatment the same, its individualised, it has no definitive timeframe, shape or outcome, and therefor i believe it is such a succes.
Ive seen people come in and out a lot of times, as i did too, but just as i am, a year later many of them are now clean and walk around smiling, just like me


Annex.

An important part of the 7-steps is a crisis-handling plan.
Its a personal file on wich you go deeper into your symptoms and how to act and or react to maintain safe an sober.
Most likely, but again thats personal, a 'traffic light construction' with three fases should do the the trick.
The phases are green, orange and red.
Green means you are well, sober, things work out for you and life is good in general.
Orange means you are in danger of a relapse.
Red means crisis, either psychiatric or as in a relapse.
REcocnising early warning signs from yourself is a huge first step to sobriety.

An example:

Green

signals--------------------helping thoughts----------------------helping actions to stay in green
i sleep well---------------i can do this, im living proof----------make sure to keep my structure
i am happy--------------im glad i feel good and im proud-----i excersise daily
i amongst people--------of it-------------------------------------i avoid bars/coffeeshops
no stress-----------------etc--------------------------------------clean my house daily
etc.----------------------------------------------------------------etc.



Orange

signals--------------------helping thoughts----------------------helping actions to go to green
i feel nervous------------two steps forward, one step back---i force myself to excersise
sleep disturbance--------i came a long way--------------------i do mindfullness
thinking about drugs---if i stay sober life is easier-------------i listen to positive music
etc------------------------etc-------------------------------------i go see a close friend


Red

signals--------------------helping thoughts----------------------helping actions to go to orange
suicidal thoughts--------i hate the hangovers!------------------i call my psychiatrist/doc
depressed---------------i dont want to live like this-------------i call a crisis hotline
i relapsed----------------there is a way out----------------------i take a nap
dont go outside---------etc--------------------------------------take a cold shower
anxiety-------------------------------------------------------------etc------------------


In my current recovery (7 weeks sober tomorrow!) this plays a HUGE part.
The fact alone i really analised my problems and troubles cleared up alot.
Every morning i wake up i take my plan and check out whether i might be in orange an if so ill know what to do, and what not.
Sometimes it means changing plans for the day.
It really eases my mind knowing i made this plan, as a confirmation that there are other options besides drinking or whatever.
Sometimes 'nothing works', some days are just a mess, but then i find relief in knowing tomorrow things will be different at least, and most of the time better, out of that i find strength not to use.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Thanks for posting that it's helpful.

 

[njirem]

is this very different then the american approach?

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

is this very different then the american approach?

In many ways yes. I have never been to a detox/treatment centre here at all, or been to AA/NA so I can't say for sure what they do at those places, or in those programs.

But I have noticed that in the United States some people who are in treatment will self-access the warning signs before relapse, or their friends/loved ones will notice things first and then tell them.

 

[bcfly7x7]

is this very different then the american approach?

This is the typical 12 steps followed by almost every group in the US.

The following are the original twelve steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:[10]

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.Came to believe that apower greater than ourselvescould restore us to sanity.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care ofGodas we understood HimMade a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects ofcharacterHumbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to makeamendsto them all.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.Sought throughprayerandmeditationto improve our conscious contact with Godas we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

In some cases, where other twelve-step groups have adapted the AA steps as guiding principles, these have been altered to emphasize principles important to those particular fellowships, and to remove gender-biased language.[11][12][13][14]

Then these are the typical 12 traditions, again with minor changes for each group.

The Twelve Traditions accompany the Twelve Steps. The Traditions provide guidelines for group governance. They were developed in AA in order to help resolve conflicts in the areas of publicity, religion and finances.[15]Most twelve-step fellowships have adopted theseprinciplesfor their structural governance.[16]The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous are as follows.[5]

Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity.For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.An AA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.AA, as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always to maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Bob

 

[bcfly7x7]

This is again not a personal attack on the fellowships.. I respect and enjoy positive aspects of their approach a great deal.

Is the reason bringing up conflicts with the fellowship approach with strong fellowship members so difficult because we can see a moral and value transfer were the recovering addict takes on the morals and the values of the fellowship, so then when someone explores perceived shortcomings of the fellowships it is taken as personal attack or is reacted to with high emotion.

I really hesitated to even bring this up as I was very worried that this had a great chance of evolving into a fellowship against non fellowship approach and I hope this does not become the case as i belive in the great positive nature of this thread.

If anyone agrees with my take then how could this contribute to the very negative results experienced by relapse from fellowship members?

I have to agree NSA, for someone who has obviously gone against the grain for an extended period of time and either views themselves as self sufficient or independent can view the fellowship of stripping them of the last bit of themselves.

After deciding to become sober, you need to be positive. Again, I am a God fearing man, however to have so much emphasis on handing everything over to God, when quite possibly in the past they have either asked for or pleaded for God to help with no result, could feel redundant or tiring.

Every person has morals, values, and opinions. Even more so people have some of their strongest beliefs when it comes to religion. Point being, why do i/we/they, have to admit you're powerless and must accept a higher power.

If we had no power, which is total bs, we wouldn't ever beat addiction. This is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. If I had no power over myself, I'd still be using. Truth is you make your choices, you have to live with them, I think that the idea of being powerless might make some feel, well if I'm powerless to fight my addiction the screw it.

We need to have a sense of being, purpose, and strength especially early on. I just feel the fellowship strips a lot of that away. To be clear, I'm not demonizing the fellowship, just providing another point of view.

Thoughts,

Bob

 

[neversickanymore]

This turned out to be very long.

NSFW:

I believe in a force of light and love in the universe and I even got the chance to see it for a second, but really its funny even talking about time in reference to it as time is for lack of a better word, so damn mortal. I just wanted to say that I do believe wholeheartedly in God. Unfortunately, religion seems to be, well so damn mortal as well. More people have been killed and more misery has been wrought on this world over time by religion, in the name of God, than everything else combined. Religion has been wielded, with utterly staggering success, to manipulate and bring about the most vile and unholy ends. It has also brought about great things.

The words moral and morals are so commonly misunderstood by addicts and non addicts alike. Given that we "lose" or fail to develop or most likely just temporarily fail to belive in our morals and values we look for them out in the world and begin to equate them with religion and other things.

mor·al
ˈmôrəl/Submit
noun
plural noun: morals
1.
a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.

2.
a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.

source

val·ue
ˈvalyo͞o/Submit
noun
plural noun: values
1.
the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.

2.
a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life.

source

There is no reference to God or religion in these definitions. The second definitions are the most prudent when we look at addiction.

Moral and values come into play hugely in healing from addiction.

When our morals and values have been compromised we need to establish them. Most of the takes presented are aimed at exploring how an addict is driven to assume the ideas of the fellowships and take them in place of their own.

Point being, why do i/we/they, have to admit you're powerless and must accept a higher power.

With this we deny our own current morals and values and instead begin to replace them with the morals and values of the fellowships.

1 We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.

Our hope is to internalize the principles of Step One, to deepen our surrender, to make the principles of acceptance, humility, willingness, honesty, and open-mindedness a fundamental part of who we are. First, we must arrive at a point of surrender.

In other words we have no chance and will never be able to figure this out. Breaks down any individual confidence at tackling this and asks them to surrender. Promotes values of acceptance, humility, and open mindedness which all would seem advantageous as if a person is going to replace their morals and values with other ones they will need to be very humble,open minded, and accepting. Surrendering to our addictions does not make any sense and we are being asked to surrender and accept the ideas, morals, and values of the fellowships.

Honesty is a key of addiction treatment. The addicted reigning part of the brain can and does confabulate anything. If we don't learn to recognize the lies in our own heads we will continue to fall for them.

I do love this step for the direction the addicts have taken it over the years and there is a ton of quality wisdom to be had by looking at all the things we really are powerless over. We end up being utterly powerless over so many things, the weather, other people, our bosses. But we do not end up being powerless over addiction.

2 We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." The emphasis is not on who or what this Power is, but on what this Power can do for us. The group itself certainly qualifies as a Power greater than ourselves. plants the seed this is the only thing that works. I belive this seed has been the reason the US rehab business is so fellowship flooded, they bought into the notion that this really is the only thing that works.

The fellowships work for some people and fail for others. For this reason we need to provide options that work for the people this approach fails. We need to scrap that piece of brain washing as it has lead to a system that has let allot of people down.

Removes value in the individual and reaffirms the addict has no chance and also takes away the defining future credit from the individual as it will be a higher power that saved them and not themselves and suggests the group or the fellowship can be that power.

3 We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Relinquishing power over a person's will and life. Says they have no chance then to surrender. In complete surrender a person gives up their own morals and values and ideas. This is necessary if the morals and values of others are going to replace the individuals. We see a more solid emergence of God as well.

4-8 The confessional steps. These hold very strong emotional healing.

4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

When we use addicting drugs we circumvent a system.. we end up logging a whole bunch of unsolved problems as solved. We need to go back and deal with these problems.
By undertaking this step we dig many of these up, as well as the ones not linked to drug use.

In doing this the healing process is started.

5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

The process of confession has such great power its effects have been attributed to God and embraced buy religions for many years. We certainly aren't confessing anything to an omnipotent God.. that ideas is just silly. So why then is it always to god, ourselves, and another human being.Does it work if we confess to ourselves, our pet, and God? So whats the big deal with telling someone else?

Making an hypothesis from and evolutionary mind set, people who felt good and experienced peace from sharing their troubles may have been more successful in life then those who didn't . In a social group there seems to be quite a few. Two heads are usually better then one, the more people that work on and address a problem the more likely it is to get solved. Bringing issue from members out in the open may have lead to less quarreling and promote better unity and teamwork. This may have increased propagation and success spreading the trait widely.

So good at removing the fear we had that someone was going to find out We also it not nearly as big a deal as we thought, unless the person we confess to drops dead of disgust, but chances are they did something similar or worse.

6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

More psychological work done towards healing by the addict as they are also primed to give all the credit for their work to a God they may or may not have believed in at the start of the steps.

For instance, we're still insecure. We may no longer run around indulging in a series of
transparent attempts to convince others that we're big shots, but we still have the defect.
The way we've been acting on it lately is far more subtle and far more insidious. We may
have been unconsciously sabotaging the efforts of others so that we can look better by
comparison, or trampling on someone else's desires because they don't directly serve our
own needs.

when a person has undefined personal values and morals they look to the values and morals of others to determine if they are behaving right and to determine the value of things. This is insecurity.. it social anxiety. Social anxiety is where we place more importance on the opinions of others then we do of our own. This means we always seek and require their approval and praise. "Transparent attempts to convince others we are big shots" is simpleton speak for we are trying to have them approve and like us because thats how we determine our worth.

The lasting and fully real cure to this lies in identifying and accepting our own personal morals and values. It does not lie in adoption the morals and values of yet another outside opinion such as the fellowships.

Its very likely we all know someone who spent or has spent their lives so far searching from one thing to another for the meaning of life. They may have went from this religion to that religion to give it up for drugs and booze, to give that up for e fellowships or to immerse themselves for eight years to study philosophy. If you do know a person like this you may have noticed that with each new ideal or undertaking they seem to become a totally new and different person. These searchers can be a little difficult to deal with if we remain a part of their lives through a few transitions as we constantly find it necessary to alter our approach to interacting with them and they are always shoving their current approach down everybody's throats as the absolute correct way, the meaning of life, the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The meaning of life is individual to us all. Its not something we need or will be able to find as we have carried it with us the whole time. The answer lies with in us all and thats the only place it can be found.

The generic searcher I talked about was searching for the answer every place but where it lies. With each new approach they found they immersed themselves into it. The reason they appeared to be totally different people from one to the other is that they were. As they threw off one and took up another they adopted the morals, values, and thoughts of the current one as their own. They were probably not even aware of the striking change from one to the other as they felt the same as they were still lost and searching. The reason they pushed each new take so hard as they were trying to sell it to themselves as much as anyone else. Again if we don't have our own values and morals we look to the opinions of others. If they were able to sell the new approach to us, then they would have been able to sell it to themselves by garnering our approval.

7. We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

As mentioned in step 2 the results of the work put in by the addict to explore, work through, and share their deepest secrets is given to God. Strongly suggests that we are a better after this as god has taken away our flaws. who would want to go back to having al those shortcomings. Its really amazing how much persuasion is in the literature of the fellowships.

By this point the addict is feeling much better than they have in years. The have dug up all that crap, worked through a bunch of it and shared a whole bunch more. Do I attribute this to some higher power that we created or to a God? Could it just be a strong psychological process and a bunch or work that cleaned out a system filled with years of backflow. no matter why it works it cirtanly seems to work for people and it definitely had a positive impact on my life.. just set down all that unwanted missary and jog away.

11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us
and the power to carry that out.

Our Own Spiritual Path
The Eleventh Step allows us the opportunity to find our own spiritual path, or further
refine our path if we've already embarked on one. The steps we take toward finding or
refining our path, and the way we walk down it, will depend to a large degree on the
culture in which we live, previous experiences with spirituality, and what best suits our
personal nature.

Here we finally have a glimmer or reinstating the addicts individual morals and values. This step is absolutely essential if an addict truely wants to heal from the steps. By this point the addict has had their whole identity removed. The aren't NSA anymore, they are an addict named Never. Their old friends are long sinced shunned as imposters. They have often gone through days of group therapy reprogramming and have attended hundreds if not thousands of meetings. Their individuality has been stripped and replaced by buy the fellowship mentality. Their identity, morals, and values have been stripped and replaced by the morals, values, and thinking of the fellowships. They distinguish themselves from other people by calling no fellowship people normies. Their entire social network is strongly encouraged to be fellowship members.

Thinking outside the box is openly frowned upon by many groups and members in the fellowships.

So now they are supposed to figure out who they really are????????????????????? If an addict perseveres through to this point they really need to attack this step.. atack atack atack. This is how a stepper is supposed to find them again. If they have trouble doing this they will constantly recharge their adopted fellowship morals and values by attending regular meetings. The reason is their natural morals and values are not those of the fellowships. So for most its going to be a struggle to maintain the adopted views.

I point out my views here to try and indicate that I feal that breaking an addict down and getting them to adopt morals and values that aren't theirs needs to be scrapped. It seems so counterproductive in the end. I do not feal we need to be broken down in anyway. I think educating an addict with easily understood explanations on what is going on and why. What work they need to put in and why. I think building an addict up and treating them right off the bat with a great deal of respect is the way to go.

Sorry it was so long and I hope some one made it through.

 

[njirem]

im spiritual but not religious, though religion has its pro's and cons, so does the opposite.
I believe in a consious state of mind created by our brains but its used by our soul.
I am the spirit/soul that can experience earthly life because of reading what my brain is writing to me, as a language i understand because my brain translates it for me.

I as being a soul using this brain and body, am 100% responisble for my deeds, actions and the consequents of my actions.
The only one i should be accountable to is me.

I do not believe anything in the bible or holy quran, as a to be taken literally fact or events that happened, pretty obvious its all symbolics for the view of mankind to earthly life.
There are a lot of inspiring things to get out of the books though, as a guideline to a life of love and peace, inner strenght and personal growth.

Something heavy like addiction shouldnt be something you have to quit because of a higher force, the only valid reason to do it is yourself, because you want, not because 'god' wants you and provides the strenght for you.

The biggest and most important reason to quit, in my humble opionion, is self motivation, no extrinsic reasons because if you do it for something or somebody else, its bound to fail.

People who do get their strenght out of religion, well i glad for you! serious.
Everybody has their own believe, just like i do, and thats the most important thing to have, without it you are a lost soul.

 

[neversickanymore]

In an attempt to attack the stigmatism addicts face I feel we should entirely scrap the facade of anonymity. Why do we in america go to treatments where we pretend to increase anyones anonymity by only useing only our first names. This does not protect any anonymity.. Hey my names never.. no we dont use last names but here is my email and my phone number, hit me up any time. By continuing this practice we continue to perform an antiquated practice that indicates we have something shameful we must hide. How can we end the stigma when we still participate in it ourselves.

 

[bcfly7x7]

In an attempt to attack the stigmatism addicts face I feel we should entirely scrap the facade of anonymity. Why do we in america go to treatments where we pretend to increase anyones anonymity by only useing only our first names. This does not protect any anonymity.. Hey my names never.. no we dont use last names but here is my email and my phone number, hit me up any time. By continuing this practice we continue to perform an antiquated practice that indicates we have something shameful we must hide. How can we end the stigma when we still participate in it ourselves.

Great point NSA,

While I had thoughts about that, I never put that together. It's so true, I did read the entire post of yours prior to this one, just haven't had time to respond. Anyways, these are the issues I see as well and I don't know why others either choose to ignore it or pacify the fellowship.

The more I analyze the system, the more convinced I become that we need wholesale changes. Im interested in hearing about what you have been testing out that worked for you. From the thread, I know you like the Buddhist approach, but do you think or are you combing other approaches?

I have some idea's that I have been putting on paper, combining different aspects of each. I think each has pluses and minuses. I don't want to post it though until I have some insight, perhaps I could pm it to you once im done, if you don't mind. The current system is broken and antiquated. Here's to finding another way, if you want something done, do it yourself. We can't rely on others as they just don't seem to get it. We want CHANGE, and those involved are afraid to challenge the current system, they don't want to rock the boat or lose money. Make no mistake, there is plenty of money to be had here.

Hope all's well NSA,

Bob

 

[bcfly7x7]

Not wacky at all, kinda weird really, because now that I have a brain again I feel the same way. It's really amazing that someone else can relate to that. I feel like my mind is going a mile a minute. Putting pieces together in a way that many may not be able to comprehend. It's like I have one thought then can expand on that and figure out how it fits into place with a piece that shouldn't even fit. It's just crazy....

Bob