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Feds test how stoned is too stoned to drive

slimvictor

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A small group of volunteers spent much of the last year getting drunk and stoned on marijuana furnished by the federal government before getting behind the wheel.

The volunteers were part of what federal scientists say was the most comprehensive study ever conducted on how marijuana, and pot combined with alcohol, affect drivers. The data now being analyzed ultimately will help regulators decide how stoned is too stoned to drive. It's similar to the studies conducted to develop levels for drunken driving. Volunteers were recruited from around Iowa City, home to the University of Iowa's National Advanced Driving Simulator.

"They were happy to participate," says Marilyn Huestis, chief of chemistry and drug metabolism at the Intramural Research Program at the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

The participants never got on real roads. Instead, they drove for about 40 minutes behind the wheel of NADS, a federally funded simulator that can mimic the look and feel of everything from urban parking lots to darkened gravel roads. Deer jump out unexpectedly. Passing cars swerve.

Before getting behind the NADS wheel, each volunteer was required to consume specific combinations of marijuana and alcohol, or a placebo. Because the university has a smoke-free campus, the volunteers had to use a vaporizer to consume their marijuana, which was furnished under strict rules by a federal garden at the University of Mississippi.

Each of the 19 drivers who completed the six combinations of pot and alcohol gave blood and saliva tests during their drives to check intoxication levels, Huestis says. She says the entire experiment took three years to design and administer.

The testing finished this spring, and now scientists are studying the 250 variables checked by the tests. They hope to have initial data available by October.

"In this country, there's a huge controversy over whether there should be zero tolerance or there should be some level that's acceptable. It's a terribly difficult problem," Huestis says. "We will be looking at what are the kinds of functions that are affected, and whether they are significantly different … whether alcohol is on board or not."

Colorado State Trooper J.J. Wolff has made a career of tracking down drunken and drugged drivers. As one of the state's leading experts in identifying impaired drivers, Wolff knows many Americans are watching what's happening on Colorado roads. He says he's not yet seen a major increase in stoned drivers, but state troopers are definitely looking.

"I have personally not seen more stoned drivers, not arrested more stoned drivers," says Wolff, who also trains new troopers on how to recognize impaired drivers. "From my point of view, that's good."

To check whether drivers might be impaired by alcohol, marijuana or prescription drugs, Wolff puts them through a series of voluntary roadside tests. The tests, which include standing on one leg while counting silently, and walking in a straight line, check someone's sense of time and motor skills. Marijuana, like alcohol, is a central nervous system depressant. That means it affects how someone perceives time, Wolff says.

"My first objective is to make sure you're OK to drive," he says.

One of the most useful tools police officers have is the portable breath test, which instantly checks a driver's intoxication level through the amount of alcohol they exhale. In the past few weeks, Wolff has been testing a new kind of rapid screening system for marijuana use. The test takes about 10 minutes, using a drop of saliva from a driver. Most of the commonly used marijuana tests require a blood draw and take days to yield results. Those tests can really tell only whether someone has used marijuana in the past week or so, not whether they are impaired now.

cont at
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ijuana-and-alcohol-driving-research/12496767/
 
Wolff has been testing a new kind of rapid screening system for marijuana use. The test takes about 10 minutes, using a drop of saliva from a driver. Most of the commonly used marijuana tests require a blood draw and take days to yield results. Those tests can really tell only whether someone has used marijuana in the past week or so, not whether they are impaired now.

We've had saliva tests for cannabis (and other drugs) here for years.
 
"'They were happy to participate,' says Marilyn Huestis, chief of chemistry and drug metabolism at the Intramural Research Program at the National Institute on Drug Abuse."

Someone says to me, "You wanna get high on the government's dime and then get into a cool driving simulator?", I'll say yes every time, lol.
 
I think the marijauna screening simply detects residue in the mouth from smoking, correct me if I am wrong. In that case it is complete bullshit because it is a zero tolerance tool that does not determine the level of intoxication. If they are relying on the field sobriety test for the final verdict than that is quite reasonable. I wonder if they just used one level of cannabis use compared to different levels of alcohol or if they are getting a real picture of impairment from different levels of cannabis intoxication. A study on cannabis intoxication on driving impairment alone would have made more sense.
 
This is ridiculous! I know plenty of potheads that have no problem at all driving on weed. The only problem I've come across from driving and smoking is passing the weed. You take you attn off the road to pass the weed. Otherwise it makes me slow down and zone into the road.
A spit test? Ok so I smoked yesterday, I'm not high anymore but I'm still under arrest? Ridiculous!!
And it seems like they're testing people who are drunk and stoned, this is very dangerous. I always got more fucked up when combining these two. How do u prove someone smoked in the past few hrs though?
Standing on one leg and clicking like a chicken doesn't prove anything!! I've dated a few girls who had awful balance, they should be arrested I guess.
Another one that pisses me off is prescription meds. It's all so subjective, people with long term script that take, say oxy for example and take as directed usually feel absolutely nothing from these meds once they're body adapts to taking these meds daily. I know everyone's gonna go nuts but it's true. If taken as directed for long periods of time the meds have no affect on driving. Should everyone with a script have their license taken away? Seems silly to me... Just another reason to lock everybody up.
 
"'they were happy to participate,' says marilyn huestis, chief of chemistry and drug metabolism at the intramural research program at the national institute on drug abuse."

someone says to me, "you wanna get high on the government's dime and then get into a cool driving simulator?", i'll say yes every time, lol.

=D lol
 
This is ridiculous! I know plenty of potheads that have no problem at all driving on weed. The only problem I've come across from driving and smoking is passing the weed. You take you attn off the road to pass the weed. Otherwise it makes me slow down and zone into the road.
TL;DR below
Problem is that not everyone reacts the same. I am a habitual smoker, around 2-3g of high-grade weed daily, I can function completely normal when high, better even in some aspects. I have a huge tolerance to weed. But I am absolutely terrible at driving when stoned, even when only slightly.

It's very strange as most people I know have the opposite effect. They get calm and drive relaxed, I get too tense, active and hyper-focused (losing sight of the big picture, a very bad thing to happen). If I were to smoke a good deal and then drive somewhere far and unknown in busy traffic I would make potentially dangerous mistakes. Mistakes like changing lanes without signaling or looking in the mirror on a highway, because I was too focused on the exit I had to take. And by doing this forcing a car I was about to slam into sideways to slam the brakes, which sent it into a 360 spin. Luckily the highway was abandoned and they were OK, didn't hit anything (I of course pulled over btw). That car had a couple and their child in it. Since then I don't drive when I've smoked anymore, ever. I don't want to end up killing someone. If I'm sober I'm a calm and good driver, I never make mistakes like that. If I've smoked even a bit I get hyperfocused on details behind the wheel, so much so that I forget to watch other important things. So you have to take into account the few people that experience a highly negative impact from weed on their driving skills, as those are the ones that will cause damage.

I'm not pro saliva-testing at all. My country has them too and they are bullshit, bluebullshit even. They detect up to 16 hours after your last smoke. I'm not going to get into drug testing details but the consequences of this are obvious I think. If they would be able to ascertain with certainty what levels of intoxication correspond on average with what levels of driving-impairment and measure accurately - like a breathalyzer does for alcohol - how intoxicated you are, I would not be opposed to such measures being implemented. This current system however is nonsensical, just a trick to catch more "drug offenders", little to do with road safety

TL;DR some people react differently and are potential risks in traffic. Current saliva testing is BS, but because of the previous I would not be opposed to accurate intoxication level measurement + proven and objective correlation between level of intoxication and level of driving impairment
 
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But one has to admit that this is really a progress in terms of seeking protection, and even health, in general terms.
It protects the user and it protects the others. It might be as simple as that.
I believe that Europe has its own methods, as well as different measures.
 
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Here the mouth swab tests for cannabis only indicates a positive to if you have used in the last 3 or 4 hours afaik, anything after that you should be fine, or so I was told. Road side swab drug driving tests are common here, altho I havent had to take one some guy in Aus DD said he did one after smoking weed 4 or so hours earlier and he passed the test he said and was free to keep driving.

They often set these up after festivals or around busy festival areas and concerts and also just randomly all over the place.
 
But one has to admit that this is really a progress in terms of seeking protection, and even health, in general terms.
It protects the user and it protects the others. It might be as simple as that.
I believe that Europe has its own methods, as well as different measures.
Agreed. This is a step in the right direction. But the measures are at the moment misused by police looking for an easy excuse to arrest you. It's enough that one says "hmmm let's see. He has shiny eyes, he is anxious and he seems sluggish" and they can subject me to a saliva test. Three 'objectively determined' signs of intoxication from a list that covers just about any behavior someone might display - both normal and abnormal - and you are screwed. It's different from alcohol tests in that the possible symptoms are much more open to interpretation

Here the mouth swab tests for cannabis only indicates a positive to if you have used in the last 3 or 4 hours afaik, anything after that you should be fine, or so I was told. Road side swab drug driving tests are common here, altho I havent had to take one some guy in Aus DD said he did one after smoking weed 4 or so hours earlier and he passed the test he said and was free to keep driving.

They often set these up after festivals or around busy festival areas and concerts and also just randomly all over the place.
If the window for detection was as short as that over here I would be much less opposed to these random saliva tests. It would at least serve to show somewhat accurately that you are in fact under the influence
 
then I hope they put your dumb ass in jail lol


Come on dude, thats fucked up. If we are not hurting anybody. Yes, it could be dangerous, but those of us used to it its like driving sober, just we are even more careful!

There are a lot of stoned drivers who never get into an auto accident. I smoked and drove everyday for 10 years, no breaks. Never got into a wreck or noticed by the police.
 
^
But how does one determine which users can handle driving stoned? How do you determine who has a high tolerance and who hasn't? And how do you enforce such a rule? It would be impossible because doing that would be discrimination.

There are indeed lots of stoners that can drive just fine when stoned, but it's the ones that can't who would end up killing other people or themselves. You either ban it completely from behind the wheel or you set a legal limit, like with alcohol. Not to protect the ones that are fine to drive stoned, but to protect the ones that aren't and other people they might harm because of that. I know common sense should keep these kinds of people from getting behind the wheel, but not everyone has common sense or regard for consequences. I'm not saying toss their asses in jail btw. but I am saying that it isn't necessarily the best thing to allow driving stoned without determining exactly how stoned that person is...
 
^
But how does one determine which users can handle driving stoned? How do you determine who has a high tolerance and who hasn't? And how do you enforce such a rule? It would be impossible because doing that would be discrimination.

There are indeed lots of stoners that can drive just fine when stoned, but it's the ones that can't who would end up killing other people or themselves. You either ban it completely from behind the wheel or you set a legal limit, like with alcohol. Not to protect the ones that are fine to drive stoned, but to protect the ones that aren't and other people they might harm because of that. I know common sense should keep these kinds of people from getting behind the wheel, but not everyone has common sense or regard for consequences. I'm not saying toss their asses in jail btw. but I am saying that it isn't necessarily the best thing to allow driving stoned without determining exactly how stoned that person is...

I think that field sobriety tests would solve this problem.
If someone cannot walk in a straight line, they are too fucked up to drive. (Unless they have MS, etc.)
Problem is that field sobriety tests are too subjective. Improve them, and use them to gauge sobriety in everyone. No need to measure THC content in saliva or blood, so you won't pick up false positives from someone who lit up 3 days ago but has a slow metabolism. You will nail people who are ultra-sensitive to cannabis, and smoked one hit an hour ago, making them too high to drive safely.
How to improve them?
Field sobriety tests should always be videotaped, for one. Take away some of the subjectivity by giving people a chance to fight back if a cop is dishonest.
Mostly, put more research into it. Saying the alphabet backwards doesn't necessarily correlate with having decent driving skills.
 
That's a good point. A decent and objectively conducted field sobriety test would show situational impairment rather than the calculated impairment you get from measuring THC levels.

However that still does not solve the problem of people like me. I will expand a bit on that, I think you will see that field sobriety tests would not work for me. Sorry in advance for a long post.

See I react differently to weed than most people. Weed for me is a stimulant, in the truest sense. It increases my heart rate - for hours on end, not just right after a smoke - , I can't eat anything until I am sober again, I can not sleep if stoned for this I need to be sober too, I lose weight, my focus goes up immensely, my thoughts start to race, breathing frequency increases, body temperature increases very slightly, I get talkative, hyperactive, more energetic and more social. The more I smoke the more I am stimulated, the more these effects increase. I smoked 8g in a night once at a festival, by myself, and the more I smoked the wilder I was dancing, for 8 hours on end (not dick-sizing here, it's to illustrate the stimulant properties). I had a psychiatrist explain this phenomenon, she told me that it had a neurochemical cause, dopamine-related specifically. I do question her level of expertise a bit because of some unrelated story so I am not sure of this

So when talking about driving this becomes a problem. Racing thoughts coupled with hyper-focus, nervousness and hyperactivity are for me very bad news behind the wheel. Especially the hyper-focus is troublesome, as I almost completely lose situational awareness, as soon as something pops up that catches my eye I focus way too much on it, call it a sort of target fixation. All this is very dangerous in my case as evidenced by the story in my post a bit higher. And I know for a fact that I am not the only one getting these stimulant effects from weed (especially sativa's). So it's not so far fetched that there could be more people like me when it comes to driving when stoned as well.

And that's why field sobriety tests would not work for people like me. I am a habitual smoker. 2g-3g high-grade Dutch cannabis daily. Have been smoking those quantities for about 6 years now. I have a huge tolerance. As soon as I step out of that car it would be impossible to objectively determine that I am under the influence. Even if you would improve the tests they would not work, I look, act and react completely normal and sober. I would pass such a test. And still I would be a danger on the road...
 
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^ Very interesting.
I have two things I want to say.

First, I am affected by cannabis in almost exactly that same way you describe. I cannot possibly hope to sleep, I don't want to eat, I gain tremendous energy, etc. I also have the hyper-focus, racing thoughts, etc. I have met (only online) few people who even seem to believe this, let alone experience it, so I am happy to have read your post, BlueBull! :D

Second, I wonder about your reasoning and conclusion that field sobriety tests would not work for you. Maybe if the danger of racing thoughts + hyper-focus + nervousness + hyperactivity is truly high, you will fail the field sobriety test. Maybe if you can pass that test, you are (marginally) safe to drive. Maybe not, but I am sure that many people permanently experience similar symptoms (i.e. that 's just the way their brains are wired), and there are probably no tests that prevent them from driving. We allow them to drive en masse, so to give up on the field sobriety tests because you (and I) get that way when high might not make sense.

I understand your point - that field sobriety tests might not catch every single person who is not in key condition to drive - but I think that the alternatives, such as testing saliva or blood THC levels, or giving up on testing at all, would be far worse.
 
That is indeed very interesting to hear :D it's the reason I am so in love with weed. A stimulant that doesn't wreck you physically even if you abuse it, what more can I ask for

Well I know for a fact that cops do not notice anything, even if I have smoked myself retarded just before. I also know nobody notices, except for people that know how I act when stoned. I'm just very vibrant, enthusiastic, friendly. Without any physical symptoms of weed use, not even stimulant symptoms. I can be calm if needed. As long as the test doesn't include something that requires great situational awareness I would pass it. I have great coordination, balance, reflexes,... when stoned. The nervousness is only behind the wheel, because I am aware of what could happen if I drive stoned. It would disappear as soon as I got out of the car, even if it was a cop telling me to get out. You are right though, that is not an argument sufficient to condemn field sobriety tests, I agree that such tests - if done objectively - are generally a good representation of impairment.
 
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