Bluelight Members Should Lead the Boycott Against NBXX

[transitionsynth]

I urge each and every person using these forums to never create, distribute, purchase, or consume another NBXX compound again. Novel psychedelic research is valuable insofar as it can produce potential new compounds. We ought not to treat any compound that gets synthed and has quasi-psychedelic effects to be a "new psychedelic drug." Just because it can be synthed and used, does not mean it should. Particularly when the phenomenology of dealing with and using that drug is so similar to that of LSD. This resemblance error is the only reason NBXX has become popular, where trash like alleyescaline remains a distant curiosity. Countless threads on here every month asking about NBXX as a "replacement" for LSD. It is time for this forum to declare its position on NBXX as: don't take, ever. The results are in. It sucks, and even if you reading this enjoy it on its own merits, remember that you are a psychonaut (or drug connoisseur) with a refined palette for the extensive catalogue of RC's. You are the exception. The fact is that the majority of people who will ever take it are taking it because they believe it to be LSD, because they believe it to be a "replacement" for LSD, or because they don't have any clue at all what they're taking and are just being adventurous, giving into peer pressure, etc. etc.

One of the biggest things the psychedelic community has (had) going for it is the benign nature of the widely-used psychedelics. Overdoses on LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, etc. are unheard of, and even the more successful research tryptamines and phenethylamines require significant divergences from recreational doses to be truly dangerous. In that case, bad times could be attributed to user error or just plain bad luck. NBXX wipes this safety profile out from underneath our feet and leaves us completely vulnerable to charges of circulating dangerous, life-threatening chemicals that could kill a college kid who's just experimenting with a tab or two of drugs. Add to that the strange, unfathomable psychological dangers already inherent in any psychedelic drug, and we are looking at a long, long road of continued persecution and discrimination.

It's time to stop this. It's time for RC vendors, bluelight users, and any other central source for drug distribution or information to take responsibility for this beast and get it off the psychedelic menu. Stop pretending like NBXX is anything other than trash masquerading as a psychedelic drug. When users come here inquiring into NBXX, I urge each one of you to tell them not to do it, and explain exactly why. In particular, stop indulging NBXX-LSD comparison threads, as this further solidifies the notion of NBXX as replacement for LSD. For those of you with personal contacts to RC vendors, please make it known that you will stop doing business with them if they continue to make NBXX available to the general public. If you have a street dealer who sells you NBXX, particularly if he sells it as acid or LSD, do not buy from that person again, including other drugs.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Wow, strong and well written message transitionsynth.

I mostly agree with you but also there is a dilemma because we should be free to make our own choices in life, and if someone wants to ingest these chemicals, should that not be their prerogative? There are people on this board who are using them very carefully, and will likely never encounter problems from them. But if ever there was a drug for us to boycott, this is it.

There's also the problem that we don't know if they're all extremely dangerous, or if just some of them are. It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think it's safe to say that 25i is pretty much on the black-list. I won't touch any of them myself, and I tell all my friends to stay far away. If I was a vendor, I'd never sell them because of the potential of ending someones life.

I have mixed feelings about this, but overall agree. I think we're kind of heading that direction anyways. They're already getting harder to find it seems.

 

[MyExcuse]

When we start policing ourselves, we're just creating a second enemy to the community. The police and ridiculous drug laws are bad enough, and then you come on a drug forum, to tell regular drug users, to boycott a chemical; Just because you think the chemical is dangerous?

I can't stand behind your argument, it seems hypocritical to defend one drug over another. Drug risks should be mitigated through accurate information distribution, not boycott's or any other punitive actions. How do you punish a drug? You can punish the producers, the users (who actually enjoy it, or gain medicinal value), the distributors, but you cannot punish a drug.

 

[black53]

I think that as long as the substance is clearly labeled 25x-nbxx using/selling/buying is ok. Yes, they are dangerous compared to other psychedelics, but if someone likes them and wants to take them, who are we to tell him not to?

Now selling them as LSD and similar scams, that's totally different and wrong.

 

[FunctionalOlfactio]

Neither censorship nor prohibition mitigate the social or individual consequences of drug use. The United States has proven this.

Accurate information and non-condescending social support are effective. Open, honest, and balanced dialog are the foundation of this.

 

[peanut 801]

I agree with the OP on this. I have done 25-I about 3 or 4 times, and only once was it sold as it properly should be. The rest people tried passing it off as LSD, which I INSTANTLY knew what it was as soon as the tabs entered my mouth. That bitter, disgusting, putrid taste that is unmistakable! Its sad to think there's plenty of people who are really convinced that it is LSD they are ingesting, when its complete shit and much more harmful to them than LSD. I have never been a fan of the stuff myself. Not a very enjoyable high at all, IMO. I just don't know his anyone thinks it actually compares to LSD...?

 

[black53]

I think we all agree that selling X (in this case 25i-nbome) as Y (in this case LSD) is wrong. But selling 25x-nbxx under it's real name.... I really can't see why that would be wrong. Information about it is available everywhere, you can read up on it and decide if it's something you'd like to take or not way before buying it. Also, in lowish doses the 25x-nbxxs are actually quite enjoyable for a lot of people.

 

[perpetualdawn]

So, how deadly and dangerous does a drug need to be before we decide as a community that we don't want it? Is there no limit? I know this sounds facetious, and it partially is, but this is also a serious question.

Another point to consider is that by being permissive of dangerous drugs like say 25i-nbome, we are giving fodder to the people who want to ban drugs. By taking responsibility for keeping "our own" safe, we lessen the need for law and enforcement to get involved in eliminating RCs.

 

[theacidtest]

I pretty much agree with the op. The safety profile on these is appalling. If their use was confined to some of the experienced and responsible psychonauts of bluelight that would be one thing, but unfortunately that's not the case. The potential for misrepresentation as LSD is a cause of great concern to me, as the people most likely to be duped are teenagers with little knowledge of drugs.

 

[black53]

So, how deadly and dangerous does a drug need to be before we decide as a community that we don't want it? Is there no limit? I know this sounds facetious, and it partially is, but this is also a serious question.

Another point to consider is that by being permissive of dangerous drugs like say 25i-nbome, we are giving fodder to the people who want to ban drugs. By taking responsibility for keeping "our own" safe, we lessen the need for law and enforcement to get involved in eliminating RCs.

Everyone decides for themselves. You think 25i-nbome is not worth the risk? Don't buy/take it. Same as for any other drug.


Regarding your second point... they don't care about safety, just look at current/proposed banns. If they did, why is the UK considering banning AL-LAD/LSZ? Why is LSD illegal and so on.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Everyone decides for themselves. You think 25i-nbome is not worth the risk? Don't buy/take it. Same as for any other drug.

And by extension, because I care about them, I'm going to advise my friends not to buy/take it, and give them the reasons why.. and so on with greater circles of community, right on up to bluelight. I don't want a ban on these at all, but I support getting the facts out about this stuff, and I won't cry if every vendors stops vending them.

Regarding your second point... they don't care about safety, just look at current/proposed banns. If they did, why is the UK considering banning AL-LAD/LSZ? Why is LSD illegal and so on.

I think this is a cynical view, and unfortunately mostly true. But I do think the move to ban drugs is essentially rooted in a desire to protect others from harm. It's a totally flawed view, but when people OD on drugs like NBOMe, the public isn't going to do their research to find out what drugs to blame, they're just going to read headlines: "Raving Teen overdoses on Research Chemical and Dies", and then sweeping bans can proceed with full public support. When we can keep the focus on things like LSD that have proven to be very safe, it helps keep the public's mind open. I think there are glimmers of hope, people are starting to tire of the war on drugs.

 

[LSD Cruiser]

Boycott your local drug dealers selling RCs in disguise.

I do wish vendors had left the Nxxx on labeled blotters (similar to AL-LAD/LSZ), or at least guarded the HCl more safely, but that is their choice to make. Most seemed afraid blotters imply consumption, even though properly marketed they don't, we've seen legal interpretation of analog laws can be selective in US courts.

 

[black53]

And by extension, because I care about them, I'm going to advise my friends not to buy/take it, and give them the reasons why.. and so on with greater circles of community, right on up to bluelight. I don't want a ban on these at all, but I support getting the facts out about this stuff, and I won't cry if every vendors stops vending them.

Of course, good information is the key and most NBOMe deaths could have been avoided that way. The only thing I disagree about is these compounds just not being sold at all. Perhaps limit them to advanced customers like the benzo powders?

I think this is a cynical view, and unfortunately mostly true. But I do think the move to ban drugs is essentially rooted in a desire to protect others from harm. It's a totally flawed view, but when people OD on drugs like NBOMe, the public isn't going to do their research to find out what drugs to blame, they're just going to read headlines: "Raving Teen overdoses on Research Chemical and Dies", and then sweeping bans can proceed with full public support. When we can keep the focus on things like LSD that have proven to be very safe, it helps keep the public's mind open. I think there are glimmers of hope, people are starting to tire of the war on drugs.

I believe this will get better in time. Younger generations are more open to ideas about legalization + from a logical stand point it makes perfect sense. Would you rather buy your drugs from a specialized store that is held up to pharm standards regarding purity and dose accuracy or from some shady guy/website that may or may not be selling what he claims? ODs should also be more rare because you're getting a known amount of a known product.

@LSD Cruiser
Yes, AL-LAD/LSZ blotters with the name/formula on them were a great idea. This should be done for all blotters imo.
And some did only sell the powders to customers who showed at least a basic understanding of the dosing.

 

[phatass]

are you stricktly talking about nboh's or nbomes too?

With recently aquiered knowledge, and despite two amazing trips on 25i-nbome, i have to agree with your point of view OP, having dug further and done more research (erowid has a new nbome related deaths page) i know i won't be touching these again, as enjoyable as they may have been... it's frightening stuff

 

[wayab]

so what you are saying is that because lsd is physicaly safe it's safe in general?
why not ban lsd? oh it is already and no reason justifies it.
i thought this site was to help people use such dangerous and risky chems safely not for preaching and politics ?

 

[GolemGolem]

It's perfectly fine to tell someone who comes here that 25X is dangerous, unpredictable, and not particularly rewarding. That
s the truth and I say it often, It's not perfectly fine for you to force me to say it.
Telling someone their choice in drugs is shit, with no more useful information is not harm reduction, or very likely to keep anyone from gumming that tab.

 

[zn13bt]

Fear-mongering is not harm reduction. I refuse to take any part in this boycott. There is already a stickied thread and warnings on the B&D threads outlining the risks involved with these substances.

(And allylescaline isn't "trash" either. That's just, like, your opinion, maaan.)

 

[Solipsis]

Neither censorship nor prohibition mitigate the social or individual consequences of drug use. The United States has proven this.

Accurate information and non-condescending social support are effective. Open, honest, and balanced dialog are the foundation of this.

QFT

Well, basically I have been boycotting N-benzylated PEAs for some time now, I guess ever since I tried them and read about incidents... I just don't really consider them part of the 'menu' and try to ignore them or meet a situation with a HR perspective.

But we have to be realistic: people who are spreading these compounds to sell them as LSD will probably just keep doing that. Like zn13bt said, PD is taking NBX compounds seriously and IMO warnings and dissuasion are in order. However we are not going to be fascists about it..

I do fear for the safety of (casual) novice experimenters though, and I would like to restrict non-committant access to these compounds in any way possible, yes. It has been mentioned before in this thread:

Perhaps limit them to advanced customers like the benzo powders?

Availability may be key here, these compounds are apparently adopted as a cheap LSD replacement but people may be laying blotter the wrong way or the hits may get advertised as LSD.
And yes I think that NBX compounds are certainly too widely and easily available.

This is all very ideological, but the real question is: how can we actually influence this? We will not restrict information, that is the opposite of what we should be doing.

Bans will have an effect on part of the availability, namely the direct availability of ordering online... but those bans will not stop the 'industry' that is using these compounds to fake part of the LSD market.
So I suspect we will be seeing a sort of global 'under the counter' trading... perhaps some lives are saved because the self-sufficient novice internet order placers won't get the NBX as easily, but they will keep popping up illicitly and stealthily. The only thing I guess that could be done on that front is promoting the use of reagents so that the surprise fakes can be detected.

 

[jason7]

They'll all be banned in most major countries soon anyway. They were just being sold because companies could make an easy buck off them with no legal repercussions. Once the loophole ones are added to the list I'm pretty sure they'll just fade away over the next few years. They really aren't that desirable. I suppose the short duration of effects makes some of them attractive, like 25c, but people could get the same short duration from mushrooms. I threw my 25c out because I just don't find it enjoyable. It made me very agitated and I didn't get much in the way of visuals or euphoria from it. It was more like an ordeal to get through than an enjoyable experience, and there isn't really any market for me to have got my money back from it.

Obviously it would be wrong for someone to pass it off as LSD though. I guess if a person is buying "LSD" from an unreliable source then they should swallow the blotters right away to make sure it's really LSD and not NBxx, unless they know what they're in for with NBxx compounds and don't mind that much if it turns out to be that. I wouldn't really go on a crusade against it but if anyone asked for my opinion I'd say I can't recommend it and tell them not to go above a dose of maybe 700 mcg if they did decide to try it. It's doubtful anyone would have serious problems with any dose under 1 mg really. I do understand your point of view though, they can be dangerous if people don't read about them first and properly measure out reasonable doses. Having a seizure probably isn't much fun.

 

[InterestingFACT]

While the nbxxxs are dangerous, and I have never used one for this very reason, I think your presumption that we should boycott them because they are substituted for LSD is simply nonsense.

LSD is one example of a highly potent hallucinogen. However, there are others. Just because LSD is a well-known and well-loved drug that fits this description does not mean that other compounds shouldn't have the chance to compete with it. It is morally wrong to misrepresent one compound as another, but it is not morally wrong to lay a chemical on blotter that is not LSD. Keep that it mind.

So far as I see it, a "boycott" of nbxxxs would only be useful insofar as it would encourage RC companies to develop drugs in other classes--essentially, to develop drugs which are hopefully safer and therefore more of interest to the sane-minded among us. As should be obvious, this is not a boycott, it's a rationally-minded choice to not take a product which you don't want.