Opioids Kratom Mega Thread V.4

[Crunch554]

My last few kratom experiences have been riddled with a plague of negative side effects.

I've tried it a few times in the past, a few different products from headshops, had some pretty decent experiences but nothing too crazy for better or worst.

Recently got my hands on some Maeng Da from two different vendors.

First time I tried to do toss and wash, puked.

Then onto capsules and when I finally got it down, despite some half decent effects, I ended up being overwhelmed with an experience reminiscent of a bad weed high but not exactly the same.If you're one who knows what I'm talking about, you may be familiar with the feeling of anxiety, quite heady, and not really fun, very psychological and also psychedelic in the worst way possible. Not even mentioning how it also makes me still feel kinda sick to my stomach and that feeling kinda also deducts from any positive.

I tried it a few times, some of them not being quite so bad, but the underlying difficulties are still present to some degree.

I was thinking perhaps a strain change would make a difference, but I don't know. Was thinking maybe less is more might be a better approach and then I was also maybe thinking at a higher dose, a euphoric opiate effect could come into play that would counter this, but quite doubtful of that.

Thoughts?

Proceed as though less is more. Try to take a dose that does not result in eye wobbles. I use this primarily as a stim. If I get eye-wonky, it's a sign I went a little aggressive with the dose. I really don't see how a massive dose of Kratom could be pleasurable . . . for me anyway. If i take so much that I can no longer make proper eye contact with people, it's a sign that additional side effects are to come . . . confusion, paranoia, cold sweats, etc.

I completely understand the, that much made me feel good-will twice as much be twice as good, approach. With most things more is better. Not this one.

 

[Crunch554]

im currently self employed and kind fo a workaholic, i dont want a drug habit to trash my productiviy/life. so is kratom agood one to take up?

i stopped doing stims cos they distroy me for days/weeks after physcially and mentally, so on top of it being extrmeely unpleasant when they wear off there is also the disruption of normal lifestyle.

regarding the existential issues i think my current thinking is- if im gonna want something to get by day to day anyhow i want it to be something that has least risks and generally safe. so does kratom fit the bill?

i hate all the usual suspects such as alcohol or weed.

Yes, it fits the bill. You seem to understand the primary issue with productivity drugs and professional life. When you use it daily and then run out, professional life will suffer. You need to consider this. make sure you have a good supply chain. I am currently seeking a cheaper supplier because the cost is starting to get ridiculous. Nonetheless, until I find a replacement, I have a steady steam from my current vendor. I take this stuff every morning before work and every evening before the gym. Usually a dose in between those as well.

I was a stim freak. Love just about all of them. I have been off stims for two years. Kratom fills the little void. Great stuff really. I mean, it's not amphetamine good but, it fills that void . . . just enough to avoid intense desire to put shit up my nose.

 

[KyleOpium]

Yep, I have a serious love affair with kratom. First started using it when I had to quit weed, due to some psychotic/paranoid symptoms starting to show themselves (Guess that the price for being a daily smoker from ages 14-22 huh?). It really helped quitting weed be almost painless, whereas before I found kratom I couldn't go more than 3-4 hours without smoking. I am also a former pharm opiate addict (oxycodone, and dillies). Kratom fills the void. Every time I've run out of kratom for a few days, I end up eating roxy 15 like they're candy, and when I get the kratom in the mail, it takes any withdrawal away, thus starting the love affair again. I've also never gotten any withdrawal from quitting kratom, but then again I only use 4-5 grams, 3 times a day. I've seen people using crazy doses of 20 grams at once. I don't think I could handle that without getting too dizzy.

 

[tunesey]

I have tried lots of different strains of Kratom and it never does fuck all to me never had a Kratom buzz just made a tea out of 15g of 20x extract noting but a bit of relaxation

 

[whiteroom67]

I have tried lots of different strains of Kratom and it never does fuck all to me never had a Kratom buzz just made a tea out of 15g of 20x extract noting but a bit of relaxation

Maybe you're one of those that has a naturally high tolerance to its effects. Also, I've noticed that with both Kratom and opiates (moreso with opiates), if I've had a long break, it can take 2 or 3 days of usage to start getting more euphoria from it. Of course getting into that habit isn't really a good thing to do anyway. Sometimes I've gotten great euphoria from Kratom, and other times it would just be a mild relaxation like you said, even same strain from same vendor. So it can vary.

 

[drewbocop]

lol, my post got deleted concerning some of the noobs. Oh well. As for kratom doing fuck all for the guy above, I've seen that among a few of my friends with no opiate tolerance. Doesn't even make them sick or anything. I guess YMMV applies.

 

[Mycophile]

I still find Kratom to be SO temperamental.

Too much and I won't get a good high.

I think I partially fucked my high today by taking 2 tspns because one of them was white maeng da and that stuff is more dense than the other strains I have so I think I consumed more than I would normally on tpspns of other strains even though 2tspns is usually a good dosage for me.

I guess getting a better scale would be good but USUALLY I get the dosage right these days. The last scale I bought was completely useless so I don't really feel like spending more on a scale now which might be equally worthless.

I'm still feeling it, but the euphoria isn't what it should be and I know that what euphoria I do have would go away entirely if I took more so I just have to wait and hopefully more of the euphoria comes back.

I feel like Kratom is the "PMsing temperamental chick of the drug world" lol...

 

[banana king 84]

Agreed with above poster. For me, kratom only works on an empty stomach, and only last 2 hrs or so. I take 10 grams, & can tell no difference between green or red vein, but only in the quality of the kratom itself. July 3, 2014, I had 10 grams Mitra Red Borneo, on an empty stomach, at 8:15 pm, at a Jazz Fest. I pre-mixed it with grapefruit juice at home so I could drink it openly. By 8:45 I felt some warmness and activity in my head, altered perception, more happy and energized as I enjoyed the atmosphere. I finally ate a philly at 9, & the feeling was gone by 10:15, when we left. Around 9:30 I felt tired and for 5 minutes almost nodded, but then was wide awake again. Also find it hard to dose high enough to feel a buzz without getting sweaty & nauseous. I've thrown up before off it, after driving a few miles, and also feel very anxious & impatient on it, a red light seems to last an annoyingly long time, & every little line you queue in makes me antsy. I am opiate naive also, I was worried kratom would be more like an opiate & make me content (and more likely to get addicted to it) instead of the stimulant properties which are more prominent.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Myco don't forget that each strain has it's own alkaloid profile, this is very important if you can't seem to find your sweet spot. From experience WVMD is one of the more potent strains so 2 tsp of that isn't gonna be equipotent to say, 2 tsp of your average run of the mill bali. Even if a vendor has it's mitragynine percentage listed there's still 20+ alkaloids unaccounted for and believe it or not, not every strain even contains any 7-OH Mitragynine at all. Sekio did some testing on a few strains and iirc none even contained 7-OH Mitragynine. Also, some strains just seem to have a higher ratio of dirty/gross alkaloids to opioid alkaloids which makes finding your sweetspot near impossible. Certain strains were guaranteed to give me eye wiggles and jelly legs before any remarkable euphoria, green malaysian was a repeat offender.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

I'm having eye wiggles right now from red vein bali.. took 5g this morning another at noon and just now again.. was talking to someone and the damn eye wiggles started a few min ago now cant look at anything without it happening in my peripheral vision.
I hate this strain.
I have some more red vein coming in along with the same amount of green vein.. think ill mix the 2 in equal proportions and see what i get.
IIRC the cheap stuff (PC/Bali) is a mix of all vein colors thrown together.
I actually prefer that to what I have now.. hoping mixing the 2 when it arrives will result in something like regular PC/Bali.

-HOOD


EDIT: opinions on what im planning on doing? any better ratio than 50/50?

 

[Mycophile]

Myco don't forget that each strain has it's own alkaloid profile, this is very important if you can't seem to find your sweet spot. From experience WVMD is one of the more potent strains so 2 tsp of that isn't gonna be equipotent to say, 2 tsp of your average run of the mill bali. Even if a vendor has it's mitragynine percentage listed there's still 20+ alkaloids unaccounted for and believe it or not, not every strain even contains any 7-OH Mitragynine at all. Sekio did some testing on a few strains and iirc none even contained 7-OH Mitragynine. Also, some strains just seem to have a higher ratio of dirty/gross alkaloids to opioid alkaloids which makes finding your sweetspot near impossible. Certain strains were guaranteed to give me eye wiggles and jelly legs before any remarkable euphoria, green malaysian was a repeat offender.

I didn't realize that WVMD is more potent than others.

That's interesting because so far it's my least favorite strain I've tried and maybe that is why...because perhaps I usually take too much of it but also...it's EXTREMELY dense unlike bali, RVB, GVB or GM.

All those tend to be grainy and easy to get down but I always cough and choke a little on the WMD when trying to get it down cause it's SO damn thick and I'm wondering why?

Really though, I don't notice much of a difference between ANY of the strains I have tried to be honest.

I thought I really would notice the difference between them, but they all feel pretty much the same to me, equally likely to produce speedy effects and most of them don't give me as much sedation as I hope for either (not tired type sedation, but I'd like more of an Oxy/Hydro type effect that I don't get quite as much of as I would like always).

I remember Sekio giving the opinion that he didn't think that there really was much of a difference between white, green and red veins and that it was mostly psychological, and that when he ran tests on them there wasn't much difference in alkaloids between any of them but you seem to disagree from your experience huh??

What is a "dirty/gross alkaloid" anyway??

I'd assume a GOOD vendor would have good quality stuff most of the time right?

And what effects does 7-OH Mitragynine have?

I don't know anything about it or any of the alkaloids for that matter.

I also don't think I've ever gotten "eye wiggles" or "jelly legs"...could you describe them?? (I'd assume jelly legs is just weak wobbly legs?)

Anyways, I have found certain things to be consistent for me with Kratom in producing good results and that my learning curve has increased dramatically in terms of percentage of getting good effects, things like:

Don't take too much, especially no more than two teaspoons,
wait longer to take more if there's any question, especially more than 4 hours if you don't want to overdo it because I find that the alkaloids or whatever tend to stick around and have effects for a LOT longer than 4 hours sometimes which is what others have said is the standard length of the experience--

Don't overdo the caffeine on it...can make some of the euphoria go away if I take too much and/or cause hypertension

I also HAVE to take Kratom at least like 7-8 hours before bed to sleep, regardless of strain.

But it is still SO weird to me.

Kratom can have the good effects of: good mood, anxiety reduction, speedy ness (the good kind) and euphoria....but it can also have the negative effects of: too much sedation, too much speediness, hypertension and irritabiltiy.

At times I can be REALLY irritable on it....and then at others times the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of irritable.

Usually I think the irritation is caused by too much and/or too much caffeine with it.

But the good thing I have found is that unlike some other drugs that I have a psychological addiction to (not physical) like weed and alcohol, I don't have that problem so far (fingers crossed) with Kratom.

I dont' really crave doing it more than once or twice a week and have little trouble sticking to that.

It really ISN'T true the garbage that people say about "if you have an addictive personality it's that way with ALL drugs".

Some people just react differently to certain things and Kratom seems not to have a negative-drug seeking-effect on me.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

About the caffeine thing Myco.. i find kratom works best (for me) if followed by a cup or 2 of coffee. Than again, that's not tons of caffeine.
Plus i drink a lot of caffeine daily anyways so maybe caffeine tolerance comes into play for me?

 

[《Plasticity》]

Are you sure it was sekio who told you that? Because his results show otherwise (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/721746-Kratom-analysis-for-fun-and-profit). I have no doubt that each strains have their own subtle differences, I didn't notice them much when first starting but as time went on I really started noticing differences. I mean there were always strains that I didn't tolerate, but I could grasp other subtle differences as one might notice from different cannabis strains, though I'm aware you said you can't tell those differences either.

I would agree that density is another factor as well, I too noticed differences in densities. Too much kratom = a shitty time regardless of the strain so if your dosing a potent strain that's also dense with a tsp measure that's kind of a double whammy. Others my disagree but as little as 1g makes or breaks a good experience for me so it pays off to have a scale even if 1 tsp dosing has a varience of .1-.3 per tsp, because that becomes a .2-.6 variency with both tsps. Just some things to keep in mind, I've gone for months, possibly even years without dosing too high or too little once I found out how to work with the handfull of strains I would cycle.

 

[Mycophile]

Are you sure it was sekio who told you that? Because his results show otherwise (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/721746-Kratom-analysis-for-fun-and-profit). I have no doubt that each strains have their own subtle differences, I didn't notice them much when first starting but as time went on I really started noticing differences. I mean there were always strains that I didn't tolerate, but I could grasp other subtle differences as one might notice from different cannabis strains, though I'm aware you said you can't tell those differences either.

I would agree that density is another factor as well, I too noticed differences in densities. Too much kratom = a shitty time regardless of the strain so if your dosing a potent strain that's also dense with a tsp measure that's kind of a double whammy. Others my disagree but as little as 1g makes or breaks a good experience for me so it pays off to have a scale even if 1 tsp dosing has a varience of .1-.3 variancy per tsp, because that becomes a .2-.6 variancy with both tsps. Just some things to keep in mind, I've gone for months, possibly even years without dosing too high or too little once I found out how to work with the handfull of strains I would cycle.

Yeah, I remember for sure that Sekio was the one who had said that at one point, but I don't know, maybe he changed his mind.

Yeah, I feel the same way about taking just a little bit too much vs a the right amount being so specific, but I bought a scale and it just doesn't work and I don't really feel like buying another right now though sooner or later I probably will.

I still get good enough effects a lot of the time to feel I don't necessarily NEED to but it would probaby make a difference.

And I can tell the difference between different types of weed in terms of how some weed is better than others, slightly more relaxing maybe, and of course the taste but I have just never known if I was smoking Indica or Sativa.

 

[Mycophile]

About the caffeine thing Myco.. i find kratom works best (for me) if followed by a cup or 2 of coffee. Than again, that's not tons of caffeine.
Plus i drink a lot of caffeine daily anyways so maybe caffeine tolerance comes into play for me?

Yeah, I probably drink as much or more coffee than you cause I drink like 4-6 cups a day though I am trying to cut down.

I have also found that 2-3 cups of coffee or tea potentiates Kratom, but that more than that can ruin the experience.

But something I was wondering from Kratom users who are also coffee drinkers is: Do you feel it dramatically changes the experience from how it would be if you didn't have caffeine?

Like, sometimes I want more of an Oxy/Hydro type feel because usually I just get a super speedy Opioid effect but I can't usually get that kind of effect and was wondering if maybe I would if I didn't drink coffee?

I pretty much need caffeine though so I don't know if I could even experiment and enjoy the experience.

I also discovered that JUST the right amount of alcohol can have a great effect with Kratom, but not too much or I will just get drunk and forget I'm on Kratom at all.

The best Kratom experience I've had so far was when I drank a few cups of coffee with just the right amount of Kratom and then went to a brewery and had like 4-5 strong beers.

I had a great Kratom buzz, great beer buzz and caffeine buzz and they all worked together perfectly.

It felt a lot like the weed + alcohol combo but with much more mental clarity and absolutely no anxiety.

I also almost felt like I was getting more drunk in that I was stumbling a little bit when it would normal take 3 times that much alcohol to do that, and i got REALLY talkative with people I didn't know.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I know it might seem like a pita to buy a scale but I can't reccomend it enough that you do, at least if you continue to have problems dosing. You can get a cheap scale for 10$ on amazon. Just make sure you get the right scale for the occasion though, you don't want a mg scale or a scale that barely starts weight after dumping a whole gram. I believe the right scale would be a 0.01 scale? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...

And I can tell the difference between different types of weed in terms of how some weed is better than others, slightly more relaxing maybe, and of course the taste but I have just never known if I was smoking Indica or Sativa.

Ah I see, my bad. Yeah with access to medicinal cannabis it becomes very easy to spot the differences between the two strains as well as certain hybrids as alot of dispensaries typically have the strains categorized as well as their CBD/THC ratios which makes it easy to draw correlations.

 

[Mycophile]

^^^^

Yeah, I'll eventually buy a scale but I'm doing ok for now.

And I remember when I went to Amsterdam it was also easier to tell the difference between some of their strains, but in blind taste tests (in other words, black market) it gets hard for me to tell anything other than "this weed is much better and tastes much better than that weed" lol.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Back to your other post, I consider the gross alkaloids the ones that cause the unpleasant effects not seen with typical mu agonists like oxycodone and hydrocodone. There's so many alkaloids that I don't know which ones by name (though I suspect the yohimbine-like alkaloids are to blame) are causing the side effects but they're definately there which is why some strains generally feel "cleaner" or with less side-effects and more euphoria. An eye wiggle is also known as nystagmus, you can look it up if your interested. Basically it's a rapid shaking of the eyeballs from left to right which causes an anoying inability to focus your eyesight, it's quite common high doses. The more stimulating green veins as well as poor quality bali are notorious for causing this side effect according to anecdote. Bali also tends to have a higher probability for nausea, which I'm not sure I agree with.

"Jelly legs" is what I essentialy call weak, shaky legs (tremors), this feeling tends to be accompanied by nausea and weakness...not very fun at all. 7-OH Mitragynine is the most potent opioid alkaloid in the kratom leaf. More 7-OH Mitragynine, more opiate like clean euphoria. Though I'm honestly not entirely too sure how much of a contribution this alkaloid plays because I know neither the average percentage by weight this alkaloid is found nor have I eaten pure 7-OH M to make a comparison.

It really ISN'T true the garbage that people say about "if you have an addictive personality it's that way with ALL drugs".

Some people just react differently to certain things and Kratom seems not to have a negative-drug seeking-effect on me.

Definately, nobody is sentenced to addiction before trying a drug lol.
---
Oh and you can usually tell the diference between indica and sativa by the structure and smell of the bud, though it's not always 100% accurate and things get trick when dealing with hybrids. For the most part indicas are usually really dense, sticky buds with lots of resin/trichomes/crystals...whatever as well as thick smoke and a very pungeant scent. Sativas tend to be more "loose" in their form (less dense) and tend to smell more like pine or other earthy type scents, and produce a distinct cerbral, heady high. I'd take a picture to show comparison but I don't have any sativa. Anyways the average user also can't tell the difference so it's nothing too extreme.

 

[ThePredecessor]

What is the best strain in anyones opinion for a sedative buzz similar to an opiate?
I've heard Bali was the best for this but I would like other opinions.. THANKS !!

 

[FlawedByDesign]

^Bali hands down imho. Red Papua Reserve is also good but doesn't hold a candle to high quality bali.