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Thread: A RUSH from kava kava and then subsequent extreme kratom potentiation

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    A RUSH from kava kava and then subsequent extreme kratom potentiation 
    #1
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Slightly OT - I would love to see an 'herbal' or 'entheogens' sub-forum. Looking at the majority of other topics in OD, it just doesn't feel right posting about things like kratom and kava in the same sub-forum as threads about RC's, amphetamines, benzos, etc., but there just isn't any other reasonable place.

    On topic, I have been using kava rather frequently over the past couple weeks after work in the evening instead of alcohol. I use kratom every day and have a huge tolerance. Two nights ago, I made up a batch of kava using 2 new bags I just received, one strain called "Waka" and the other "Nambawan". First, I poured about a half cup of Waka into my blender along with the little bit of kava liquid I had left over from the previous night and some near-boiling water. I blended for a while, poured the blended mix into my strainer bag and strained out the liquid into a bowl. I then downed the whole bowl. Soon thereafter, I started feeling the expected kava effects but decided to get after it and have more. So I popped open the Nambawan (which is apparently ultra high grade stuff), poured about a half cup into the blender, re-added the used grinds from earlier, added more near-boiling water and blended. Poured and strained again, and then downed......


    In about 5 minutes I suddenly got a strong kava RUSH. Yes, a RUSH that felt exactly as you'd expect a kava rush to feel. A sudden extreme warmth and numbness similar to alcohol came soaring up my back into my chest and then up into my brain. The "kava numb" raged through my head and poured over me a potent kava relaxation. I was surprisingly not very nauseous but felt quite pleasantly sedated. I sat down and just allowed myself to swim around in this nearly-overwhelming feeling of the islands rocking through my veins. It was quite addicting and have found myself chasing the feeling since then. A few more downed cups of kava thereafter helped plateau the experience again, but never bringing another rush. Next day I tried to repeat the experience but didn't get nearly the same rush.

    Anyone ever get this? It was very pleasant.

    Fast forward to the next day and I wake up still feeling the kava heavily, still pleasant. I guzzled down my daily ~8g dose of kratom and WHAM BAM my typical barely-feel-anything daily maintenance dose turned into nod-city. I felt like I had taken a heroic dose of kratom, but was shockingly not nauseous, and it lasted a long time. After lunch, I had my second dose of the day and WHAM AGAIN I'm soaring from the kratom and finding it hard to keep my eyes open, and again no nausea. A similar effect today again from kava last night. Woke up feeling the kava, and kratom is making feel extremely noddy (very, very pleasantly). My only gripe with this is it's not productive for at work :-P

    Anyone else get a rush from kava similar to alcohol? And I know kava and kratom can potentiate each other, but holy hell does anyone else notice it to make your kratom feel exponentially stronger?
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    Bluelighter xtcgrrrl's Avatar
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    @Seattle_Stranger - no, I haven't experienced anything like that, but your post inspired me to take the rest of my kava tincture I had been saving. I'm running low on etizolam (although I expect my package to be here tomorrow so I'm not in danger of going into withdrawal, I still have enough to make it til then) and now I feel nice and calm no rush, though. I should buy more tincture and try it out with the massive amounts of kratom I have squirreled away!
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    #3
    This isn't entirely on topic but relates to Kava.

    Has it been definitively proven that Kava root is not bad for the liver and that it is only other parts of the plant?

    Likewise, is Kava hard on the stomach and GI?

    Thanks
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    #4
    Title: Safety of ethanolickavaextract: Results of a study of chronic toxicity in rats.
    Author: Sorrentino, L Add.Author / Editor: Capasso, A Schmidt, M
    Citation: Phytomedicine. Volume: 13, Issue: 8, Date: 2006 08 21, Pages: 542-9 Year: 2006

    Abstract:
    BACKGROUNDS: Recently, potential liver toxicity was discussed with the intake of kava extract preparations (Piper methysticum) as anxiolyticdrugs. The aim of this study was to test chronic toxicity in rats by oral application of an ethanolic kava full extract.
    METHODS: Wistar rats of both sexes were fed 7.3 or 73 mg/kg body weight of ethanolic kava extract for 3 and 6 months. The animals were examined for changes in body weight, hematological and liver parameters, and macroscopical and microscopical histological changes in the major organs.
    RESULTS: No signs of toxicity could be found.
    CONCLUSIONS: The results are in accordance with the medical experience regarding the use of kava preparations and the long tradition of kava drinking in the South Pacific island states. Specifically the results do not back the suspicion of liver toxicity.



    Thats just one study, if youre worried, have your liver enzymes tested.
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    #5
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    I've read in many places that the myth of kava being toxic to your liver has been dis-proven in modern science multiple times. I've also read that yes, the other parts of the plant are indeed bad for you while the root is just fine. Who knows!? It doesn't feel toxic, no more than alcohol does.

    I made an insanely potent batch last night and was unable to reproduce the 'rush' I described, but definitely caused a quick onset of effects, at least as quick as alcohol. I think once your body figures out what to do with kavalactones, it becomes much more efficient at processing them and producing effects.

    I find it very hard to avoid nausea though. Kava seems to inevitably cause me to feel somewhat nauseous but it is manageable, cannabis and laying down is fantastic for this. I vomited kava in the past and it was the -worst- compound to throw up because of the numbing effect it will have on your esophagus as it comes violently rushing up. It actually feels dangerous, as if my throat could close up from the violent numbing, so I've been extra careful to not exceed the nausea threshold. It's worth it though, I've grown extremely fond of the effects. It certainly has some very subtle psychedelic undertones and is a fantastic way to spend a lazy evening. I would never go to work on this stuff as it definitely induces some motor/coordination imbalances akin to alcohol, makes you not really care, it's sedating, etc.. I've used it the past 3 nights in a row though, so I'm going to give it a rest this evening.
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    #6
    ^^^^

    The concern I'd have is that you mentioned waking up and still being on it and people talk about the "Tudei/Two-day" Kava drunk experience where if you do enough your drunk for two days, and I can't have that happening right now.

    I'd want to get the dosage right and just be on it for like 8 hours and you suggested drinking the entire 28 grams I have but other posters who use Kava said that was crazy and they just take like 5 grams.

    It seems that every batch is different so no one ever knows how much to take and maybe it would be smarter for me to titrate my dose, like take 5 grams, wait 90 mins, see how I feel, then deduce from that how much more to take rather than just downing 28 grams and seeing what happens.
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    #7
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycophile View Post
    ^^^^

    The concern I'd have is that you mentioned waking up and still being on it and people talk about the "Tudei/Two-day" Kava drunk experience where if you do enough your drunk for two days, and I can't have that happening right now.

    I'd want to get the dosage right and just be on it for like 8 hours and you suggested drinking the entire 28 grams I have but other posters who use Kava said that was crazy and they just take like 5 grams.

    It seems that every batch is different so no one ever knows how much to take and maybe it would be smarter for me to titrate my dose, like take 5 grams, wait 90 mins, see how I feel, then deduce from that how much more to take rather than just downing 28 grams and seeing what happens.
    Sounds like a good plan! That should help you figure it out.

    Also, the "two day drunk" is a bit of an overstatement, you simply still feel it's calming effects the next day. Even while completely under the effects of a good kava "krunk", operating a vehicle wouldn't be overly dangerous like alcohol, at least not in my experience (though I wouldn't regardless). No worse than smoking a bowl of cannabis, which I don't drive after doing either, but could if I had to. I've HAD to drive on alcohol...and well...didn't because I simply couldn't. Kava doesn't seem to go that far.

    Please don't take any of this as advice to drive a car while under the influence of anything at all. I'm simply pointing out that this "two day drunk" thing you speak of is not as debilitating as it sounds. Even calling it a "drunk" is way too heavy.


    HOWEVER: I don't know how that changes for a toss 'n' wash! I would imagine a toss 'n' wash could potentially be far more potent and/or last way longer, so if that is your plan, forget everything I said!
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    #8
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    I've had a lot of experience with kava. I've definitely had the kava rush on those days where it just seems to hit right. But repeating it seems to be more up to the kava than to you. Of course empty stomach always helps, and a good strong batch of good strong kava. Sometimes you can even make it stronger than usual, expecting that you'll feel it more...but you won't, necessarily.

    I wouldn't really compare it to alcohol though, outside of the fact that your walking can be a bit clumsy at that point.
    I'd almost liken it more similarly to being floored on mdma. it makes you just need and want sit there, breathe, and drift around in the enjoyable relaxing rush flowing through you.

    In regards to liver toxicity, it has definitely been proven that the roots and stump of "Noble" kava plants are safe for daily consumption.
    Tudei / Two Day kava has been proven to have toxic properties and aren't fit for daily consumption...they were never used that way traditionally anyway.
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by korei View Post
    I've had a lot of experience with kava. I've definitely had the kava rush on those days where it just seems to hit right. But repeating it seems to be more up to the kava than to you. Of course empty stomach always helps, and a good strong batch of good strong kava. Sometimes you can even make it stronger than usual, expecting that you'll feel it more...but you won't, necessarily.

    I wouldn't really compare it to alcohol though, outside of the fact that your walking can be a bit clumsy at that point.
    I'd almost liken it more similarly to being floored on mdma. it makes you just need and want sit there, breathe, and drift around in the enjoyable relaxing rush flowing through you.

    In regards to liver toxicity, it has definitely been proven that the roots and stump of "Noble" kava plants are safe for daily consumption.
    Tudei / Two Day kava has been proven to have toxic properties and aren't fit for daily consumption...they were never used that way traditionally anyway.
    Two questions:

    1) What are "noble" Kava plants and how would I know if the stuff I have is of that variety?

    2) You seem to be describing "Tudei" Kava as a TYPE of Kava and not an experience, and I was led to believe it's just the feeling of being on ANY variety of Kava for two days or feeling the effects for two days, so I'm not sure what "Tudei" Kava is if not just experiencing Kava effects for two days.

    I had heard that it's the root which is fine for your liver, and the rest which isn't, and that now MOST RELIABLE vendors only make and sell Kava with the root but I don't know if that's true.

    I've never done MDMA, but the fact that you describe Kava feeling that good REALLY makes me want to get the dosage right because I've never felt ANYTHING more than the slightest buzz from it!!

    You almost make it sound like an experienced drug user could like Kava so much that they could consider it their drug of choice, which frankly blows my mind from my experiences or "non experiences" with it and so many other people also saying that it's about the weakest and most ineffective drug out there.
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    #10
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycophile View Post
    I've never done MDMA, but the fact that you describe Kava feeling that good REALLY makes me want to get the dosage right because I've never felt ANYTHING more than the slightest buzz from it!!
    That could be a bit of an overstatement. I think he was saying it's similar in the way that you would be more happy just sitting/laying there instead of moving around in the same way a high dose of MDMA vs a low dose would be. I doubt he meant the feelings are similar, though I do see the few similarities that are there.
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    #11
    Bluelighter EarthBounded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle_Stranger View Post
    Anyone else get a rush from kava similar to alcohol? And I know kava and kratom can potentiate each other, but holy hell does anyone else notice it to make your kratom feel exponentially stronger?
    Seattle, be careful! This is just my experience and my opinion but please read.

    First off the strain of Kava will make a difference there is some fire Kava out there, I know exactly what you mean about the islands lol.

    HOWEVER: I was not drinking or taking any other drugs for weeks besides cannabis, I remember the first time I took Kava I mixed it in milk and it was FANTASTIC. At the time I had one pound of maeng da ( kratom ) I was using to experiment with different extraction teks. I decided to make some flour balls, and holy hell it was literally like heroin Kava + Kratom. I ended up taking this combo for 7 days on the 7th day I was rushed to the ER and my liver was failing. I had to sit in the hospital for 5 days drinking sulfur I was very close to dying.

    This is just me and Im pretty sure it was just the Kava that did it considering its safety profile pertaining to the liver.

    Just be careful, I honestly believe one should only dose Kava no more than once a week. My personal experience has led me to believe daily alcohol consumption is safer than daily Kava. Sure booze harms the liver also but holy shit I am 27 years old and it only took a week to almost die.

    After all the Blow, oxycodone, booze, MDMA and Benzo's I had been using recreationally for a decade leave it to Kava and Kratom to send me to the ER. I actually owned a small herbal extract company and I have since shut it down. I do not want what happened to me to happen to anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by korei View Post
    In regards to liver toxicity, it has definitely been proven that the roots and stump of "Noble" kava plants are safe for daily consumption.
    Are there any scientific publications you can post? Usually these myths are spread by the distributors.

    EB
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    #12
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthBounded View Post
    Seattle, be careful! This is just my experience and my opinion but please read.

    First off the strain of Kava will make a difference there is some fire Kava out there, I know exactly what you mean about the islands lol.

    HOWEVER: I was not drinking or taking any other drugs for weeks besides cannabis, I remember the first time I took Kava I mixed it in milk and it was FANTASTIC. At the time I had one pound of maeng da ( kratom ) I was using to experiment with different extraction teks. I decided to make some flour balls, and holy hell it was literally like heroin Kava + Kratom. I ended up taking this combo for 7 days on the 7th day I was rushed to the ER and my liver was failing. I had to sit in the hospital for 5 days drinking sulfur I was very close to dying.

    This is just me and Im pretty sure it was just the Kava that did it considering its safety profile pertaining to the liver.

    Just be careful, I honestly believe one should only dose Kava no more than once a week. My personal experience has led me to believe daily alcohol consumption is safer than daily Kava. Sure booze harms the liver also but holy shit I am 27 years old and it only took a week to almost die.

    After all the Blow, oxycodone, booze, MDMA and Benzo's I had been using recreationally for a decade leave it to Kava and Kratom to send me to the ER. I actually owned a small herbal extract company and I have since shut it down. I do not want what happened to me to happen to anyone else.



    Are there any scientific publications you can post? Usually these myths are spread by the distributors.

    EB
    Thanks so much for the concern. I do appreciate it.

    I'm hard pressed to believe it was solely the kava that caused your liver to fail, nor that your liver went from 100% healthy to failing in 7 days just like that, and it sounds like you don't have any conclusive evidence either way. Can we be sure there wasn't an underlying problem with your liver in the first place that was pushed over it's limit by your flour ball concoctions? What did the doctors say after all the blood work was done? Did they just basically say "We don't know much about kava or kratom, so they must be the culprits."? Don't take this as me calling you a liar, I'm sure it happened and I'm sure the kava really does seem like the culprit, but without conclusive evidence I can only go on what I've personally experienced and researched myself. I was in contact with a person who dosed on kratom daily for years and kava nearly just as often, and got official lab tests done on his liver, and he came out ABOVE the margin of a healthy state.. There is also the possibility of a misdiagnosis, and your liver wasn't actually failing or wasn't as bad as they made it seem...it happens! I'm sure you got a hefty bill after all that!

    I'm wildly curious though. I really want to know what happened to you (as I'm sure you do too!). Were you dosing on your kava/kratom flour balls 'round-the-clock for 7 days? What was the estimated dose per flour ball? Could one of your flour balls potentially have been extremely concentrated and caused an overdose? Perhaps something went wrong with your experimental kratom extractions? Who's to say some food you ate didn't contain some horrible parasites or something? Lactose intolerance? Wrong part of the kava plant used? Were you using the actual ground root grinds in the flour balls, or were you making tea and then reducing it? There are literally millions of possibilities that contributed to this.


    There is just way too much unknown here to confidently blame kava for your experience, however I applaud your caution.
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    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycophile View Post
    Two questions:

    1) What are "noble" Kava plants and how would I know if the stuff I have is of that variety?

    2) You seem to be describing "Tudei" Kava as a TYPE of Kava and not an experience, and I was led to believe it's just the feeling of being on ANY variety of Kava for two days or feeling the effects for two days, so I'm not sure what "Tudei" Kava is if not just experiencing Kava effects for two days.

    I had heard that it's the root which is fine for your liver, and the rest which isn't, and that now MOST RELIABLE vendors only make and sell Kava with the root but I don't know if that's true.

    I've never done MDMA, but the fact that you describe Kava feeling that good REALLY makes me want to get the dosage right because I've never felt ANYTHING more than the slightest buzz from it!!

    You almost make it sound like an experienced drug user could like Kava so much that they could consider it their drug of choice, which frankly blows my mind from my experiences or "non experiences" with it and so many other people also saying that it's about the weakest and most ineffective drug out there.
    1) Noble kava are the plants that have been deemed to be the best for drinking, from 1000's of years of selection by the islanders. In modern times it refers to that & the fact that they are considered safe for daily drinking because they contain significantly less of the hepatotoxic chemical 'Flavokavain-B' than a Tudei variety would have.
    The islander's had this distinction long before science proved it, simply due to experience.

    2) Tudei (two day) kava describes a kind of kava and the duration of some of it's effects. Same vendors may sell it as 'Tudei' or others by the name 'Isa' or 'Koniak'. Traditionally it is saved for medicinal or ceremonial use. It's more nauseating, stronger and not meant to be consumed frequently. Some vendors sell tudei 'spiked' noble kava, whether they know it or not, as it makes the noble kava seem stronger. Also as luck would have it, tudei plants grow fast and strong, which makes them appealing. But it wound up damaging the international kava industry for about 15 years.

    The root and stump of noble kava plants are what you will find for sale from most Kava-specific vendors online these day.
    My relation of a full, heavy kava buzz to MDMA should not be taken as a direct comparison. MDMA definitely has more power and magic behind it.
    But some of the aspects of being floored on MDMA can definitely be felt, to a lesser degree, on a proper kava buzz.
    It should also be noted that different kava's have different strengths and different line-ups of their 6 major kavalactones. This effects how your kava experience will be. Some are much more of a heady buzz and some are a heavier body buzz, more sedating. Some people respond better to certain strains. You should always drink on an empty stomach and it often takes people many nights of drinking to fully achieve the effects.

    @Earthbounded it's hard to say for sure if the kava is the true culprit as there are many factors to take into consideration. The safety of noble kava is true, but, the statement assumes you and your liver/organs are in good health to start with and that you aren't mixing noble kava with other drugs...even if they are other ethnobotanicals. Also, a fungal or mold infestion can make a batch dangerous. I'm close in the kava community and talk with vendors, farmers, researchers and everyday drinkers. All the daily noble kava drinkers that have had bloodwork done (that I speak with) so far all came back with clean liver function. The one who had slightly elevated liver enzymes made sure to tell us; this was the case before he started drinking kava too.
    There are many studies I could scrounge up but here are a couple quick vids that might help:
    http://www.naturalproductsinsider.co...va-market.aspx

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNRURSEuatU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-d3fWiNnn8

    Dr. Lebot has been studying kava for decades...and continues to do work from Vanuatu, the largest kava consuming, growing and exporting nation.
    Last edited by korei; 25-06-2014 at 00:09.
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    #14
    Sorry to reanimate but I also experienced powerful potentiation between these two plants. I forget if I posted about it at the time.

    I took a dose of kava, felt nice for a bit, then hours later took kratom. The kratom was extremely powerful, extremely euphoric, and had no negative side effects. It lasted for literally 12 hours. I had no other drugs in my system. It was a really cool experience.

    Also notable, my girlfriend took the same dose of kava and felt nothing whatsoever. Then she took the kratom with me and had the exact same experience. We sat up all night talking and enjoying the ride. There's definitely underexplored synergy between these two.
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    #15
    Bluelighter Ozekat's Avatar
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    I took kava years ago and only got moderate high's from it. Now when I mix it with kratom it gets me high as fuck, and definitely helps alleviate my cravings for much stronger drugs such as meth.

    I take kratom everyday and have developed a tolerance to it. But I still cannot believe how mixing the two, kava and kratom produces such a stronger experience than either alone.

    Had to revive this thread one more time.
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    Noble vs Tudei Kava 
    #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycophile View Post
    Two questions:

    1) What are "noble" Kava plants and how would I know if the stuff I have is of that variety?

    2) You seem to be describing "Tudei" Kava as a TYPE of Kava and not an experience, and I was led to believe it's just the feeling of being on ANY variety of Kava for two days or feeling the effects for two days, so I'm not sure what "Tudei" Kava is if not just experiencing Kava effects for two days.

    I had heard that it's the root which is fine for your liver, and the rest which isn't, and that now MOST RELIABLE vendors only make and sell Kava with the root but I don't know if that's true.

    I've never done MDMA, but the fact that you describe Kava feeling that good REALLY makes me want to get the dosage right because I've never felt ANYTHING more than the slightest buzz from it!!

    You almost make it sound like an experienced drug user could like Kava so much that they could consider it their drug of choice, which frankly blows my mind from my experiences or "non experiences" with it and so many other people also saying that it's about the weakest and most ineffective drug out there.
    Like someone already explained, Noble Kava are the variations that natives have drank thousands of years and deemed safe and enjoyable for daily use. He also mentioned the 6 Kavalactones, but what you need to know about Kava, and how to decide on different variations/strains is "Chemotypes". The chemotype is the 6 kavalactones (each have a number associated to it) in a certain order. You should be able to find the chemotype of your variation (I use kava-forums.com) and if not, I don't buy it. With this chemotype, you can have a good idea of what kind of effects it will produce. The chemotype can also tell you if you have a "Tudei" variety.
    For example, I am drinking Dua Na Bilo's Premium Fijian Waka. The chemotype is: 426351. This tells me that in order, which kavalactone has a higher percentage content than the rest. While all 6 is relevant, the first 3 numbers will really tell you what kind of kava you have (heavy, heady, balanced, etc). 426351 is [4]kavain, [2]dihydrokavain (DHK), [6]methysticin, [3]Yangonin, [5] dihydromethysticin [DHM], [1] desmethoxy-yangonin. As you can see, out of the 6 there are 3 kavalactones (kavain, methysticin, and yangonin), and the other 3 are the same but are double bonded (dihydrokavain, dihydromethyisticin, and desmethoxy-yangonin) which really means that they are MUCH stronger than the "single bonded" kavalactone counterparts. So the first three most abundant within my Kava is (Kavain, DHK, and methysticin) the only double-bonded is the dihydrokavain. It is rather common that ALL noble kava will begin with either 42xxxx, or 24xxxx. 5 is a big number to watch for. If there is a 5 (DHM) within the top 3 such as 425xxx than it is pretty high in DHM and will be much stronger, more probable nausea, and last longer... The noble you describe that you felt the next day MORE THAN LIKELY had DHK as the 3rd number. ANYWAYS, Im not sure how accurate this next statement is, but I'm almost positive, that if 2-3 of your first 3 numbers are double bonded, I would assume that it will be a Tudei variety, as that kava will be much more powerful and go on to the next day. I know what youre thinking.... "Two-day kava, hmm.... stronger, lasts longer.... I should be buying that.." Well the reason why its reserved usually for ceremonial use and not drank by the population for recreational purpose is that, it isn't all that enjoyable... unless you want to be bed ridden for two days while puking. ALWAYS go with a NOBLE KAVA, and start looking at it's chemotype profiles. First though brush up on the 6 kavalactones and there effects they bring to the table, do you can make a knowledgeable selection. If youre new or looking for kava that is high grade go to kava-forums.com and you will see all the reputable vendors. if you click on the vendor link it will take you to a page with more info. Product profiles is where you can find chemotypes of all the products that vendor carries...
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