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NBOH's - Just how much risk is there?

J

Jacketh

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Joined
May 18, 2014
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5
Greetings all =D

Due to the the nature of some other legal subsitutes such as LSA and AMT and the obvious expected nausea that will occur with them, this is one of the factors obviously why the likes of NBOH are becoming popular. That, together with the fact it is much cheaper than LSZ and most report it as only being slightly weaker.

That said, there has been reported deaths with NBOMes (I know they're different) which I think makes us all considering the risk of the likes of NBOH's. I think the only bad report I've read about NBOH's is when taken in huge amount and mixed with other drugs. Which begs the question, is there really a risk with this substance, or does the risk only arise when individuals take it for granted? I've not yet used NBOH's but plan on doing so in the next week, but I can't ignore the negative impression many have on it in the net, particularly on Shroomery for some reason.

Its funny, because one thing we're all told and want to do before taking a drug, particularly a lab drug, is research. Yet, after hours, I'm still none the wiser on my impression on NBOH's. So many conflicting views and opinions on the trip itself, the dosage and the safety. Quite absurd.

Any thoughts, experiences or tips would be grateful. Thanks.
 
hey,

i was in the hospital because of an OD from 25i-nboh (1.5 mg) and 25c-nboh (3.5 mg) i had Cardiac dysrhythmia. I would not recoumend it because the high is not fullfilling. With other drugs i get a sense when to stop but with the nboh i do not. i think 1-2 mg would make a great trip when going out to party or something like this but using it as a "serious" psychedelic will leave you unstatisfied.
 
You would think that the hospitalisation and heart problems would make you recommend against them, but it is the unfulfilling / unsatisfying high? 8(

NBOH's have the same typical RC novelty issues NBOMe had at the start: it is very new and the risks are not really understood. Now with NBOH's which may be less potent as psychedelic one question is: are they also a little less toxic / less likely to hurt and kill a person? The answer may very well be no since it is conceivable the risk is not a direct cause of the psychedelic mechanism of action. Even more: the fact that there are potent psychedelics like LSD that don't have the same danger proves that it has to be at least a little different, even if it is an effect downstream of 5-HT2a agonism.

I personally hope people are discouraged by NBOMe bans.

And I also hope that it helps that relatively less doses of NBOH technically fit on the same blotter paper.
 
This is what I mean. First of all, Its great you managed to recover and pull through. However, it stories like this which I make make us all wary of NBOHs. There is clearly a threat at high dosages, and particularly when you mix them. Without sounding like an idiot, what were you thinking mixing them both? We don't know anything about the long term effects and lethal dosage of either one of them, yet alone mixing them. Its quite a bizarre thing to do without any consideration. That said, it was clearly a mistake as I imagine you know and thankfully the consequences weren't deathly.

I've not yet seen anything about any threat or bad effect when taking anything below 1.5mg; which is why I'm curious these drugs have a bad reputation in terms of safety compared to LSZ any other drugs. The fact that these drugs can clearly be dangerous consistently at high amounts doesn't necessarily make them a dangerous drug, just a drug that must be treated responsibly. Or am I missing something here?

Like I said, I've not yet experienced the drug so I can't vouch for whether or not it is indeed a satisfying high or ultimately worth it, but I am somewhat confused about the conflicting stories and the general atmosphere that surrounds NBOHs. Some say its up there with LSD and shrooms and the best visuals they've witnessed, some say the visuals are standard, boring and there is little or no psychological aspect to the trip. Of course trips are always going to vary, regardless of the drug, but I feel with NBOHs the way they vary from individual is quite drastic and quite bizarre.
 
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Well that's just it: this one guy is in hospital from 5mg of NBOH, and the "fun" dose is say 1.5mg, that's a very narrow margin, around 3 times the recreational dose could land you in the hospital. So any mistake in measurement, or ambitiously dosing could be very dangerous.

LSZ just seems to get uncomfortable on higher doses, and with LSD, people have taken 100s of hits and not had any long term physical problems, or needing hospital care.

Edit: we need to make that warning message for the NBOx series
 
It seems like it can be quite possible that people have dangerous reactions at doses that aren't so crazy, well at least with NBOMe's. There is a recent thread on 25B that reports this, and Erny a respectable BLer who had a LOT of info on bomamines - as he calls them - very early on, he said that some people are nearly 10 times less tolerant to NBOMe compounds.

There apparently can be really weird tolerance effects and even for the same person there are no guarantees that one tolerant reaction proves any safety.

I have no reason to suspect that NBOH are exempt from this weirdness.

So until that shit is explained I am gonna go with: no, just to be sure I am not going to assume that these are just safe drugs that require responsible use.

The warning is coming, we got a thread on it and Xorkoth has volunteered for the task in that thread. He has just delivered an awesome iboga TR so the warning is next up.
 
I feel that the huge individual variation in NBOH's magnitude of effects is explained by its poor bioavailability and thus widely different efficiency of s/l absorption from blotters.
Perhaps a more effective, standartised? ROA will result in a less steep and unpredictable dose-response curve.
 
Thats an interesting theory afer. Some people will salivate more than others, or saliva will mix more wth tab depending on where it is being held in mouth. When saliva is swallowed, drug rendered inert in GI system.

Maybe the nasal sprays are more reliable?
 
Yes how much makes it to the brain may be relatively a lot more variable than seems to be true for something like LSD. I actually kinda doubt that any ROA could solve the problem - maybe a nebulizer who knows.

Loss from swallowed saliva or nosedrip may not even be the only factor, apparently due to the extra aromaticity NBOMe's can get stuck in tissues before reaching the brain causing delays, while it may be necessary for good effect to achieve significant levels of the drug before acute tolerance sets in. I've read theories about the extent to which an NBOMe or NBOH makes it to the brain is a major factor for setting them apart quantitatively. If this is true it can cause a hit or miss effect.

I'm not sure if these theories were validated since, but it does seem to be related to the idea that NBOMe type drugs cause a lot of tachyphylaxis... very quick and strong tolerance which I think is seen in hyperpotent drugs and which may also be a factor in the very strong tolerance effects these drugs can cause in general.
 
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hey,

sorry for taking so long but i feel the need to explain my previous post.

Solipsis you ask why i do not recommend it because of the unfullfilling high. Thats because i think the unfullfilling high was the reason i dosed so high.

Jackhead why i mixed them both is for the same reason i just told solipsis because i want a fullfilling high and i first started out with just 25c and later i mexed the 25i with it because i thought that can not be all.

i talked again with the People i had taken the nbohs and one of them experienced mayor nosebledding after i was hospitilized and the other friend cut himself the next day with a kitchenknife (not on purpose) and he told me i bleeded for a good hour. I do not know if this will be helpfull but i just wanted to say this
 
kookie stuff.
I am very cautious with them - the stash is locked, and I carry only cut blotters.
I find them mostly the same having tried 25-i-nbome, 25-c-nbome, 25-i-nboh, 25-c-nboh, and 25-b-nboh
I tend to use 1/4 tab only, usually once per week.

I almost think that the "b" is best, the "c" possibly smoothest, and I have mostly "i" - nboh might be smoother than nbome.

it's cheap and dirty stuff.
the nasty taste and numb mouth for me is attractive as well as the quick transition to a dissociative kind of high with some visual fun. (rapid onset compared to other psyches) - I use an active method of oral ROI - CHEWING for 10 minutes or so and not worrying about swallowing.

The higher doses made me uncomfortable physically - usually accelerating my guts making for painful belly cramps; and lots of squirminess or fidgettiness.
at ~600-~700 mics I had auditory hallucinations as well as OEV/CEV but just way too much squirminess to want to repeat.

BUT at 250 - 350 mics and I can make my way through the city on foot or transit and have a spiked evening if I feel I need/want a little extra something.
 
I think the real danger of NBOMe's is that they have unpredictable effects (as in, YMMV by quite a bit) and also a narrow margin of safety.

LSD has quite a lot of variation in its effects, but the huge margin of safety makes this bearable.

Alcohol has a narrow margin of safety, but we can still drink it safely because the effects of even fractional doses are quite predictable.

An NBOMe experience seems to have a lot of variation from one person to another (or even one dose to another.) Also, an unlucky few people have been hospitalized or died from taking doses that were (supposedly) in the same order of magnitude as recreational doses. This presents an unappealing safety scenario, and at this point I don't see any reason why NBOH's should be any different.
 
I also found 25c nbome to be rather fiendish...I just kept eating more and more. ...until I ate too much
 
Jacketh said:
I've not yet seen anything about any threat or bad effect when taking anything below 1.5mg; which is why I'm curious these drugs have a bad reputation in terms of safety compared to LSZ any other drugs.
Click to expand...

Probably because the lysergamides don't put people in hospital when double-dosing ;) taking 1mg of an NBOxx can be a great trip while taking 2mg can mean someone's in a hospital or morgue.

I think with proper care and the appropriate lower dosages these substances are no more likely to pose any risk than any other - the issue is more that few people *are* taking appropriate care with these drugs, people take 800ug and think it's not intense enough so they take 1.6mg next time, and 2.4mg next time if that's not good enough.. You don't see someone saying "Hmm 20mg 2C-E isn't enough for me, I guess my next dose will be 40mg" but you see such huge dose increases with NBOMes all the time. a 20% dosage increase is a big difference with most psychedelics, and here you're seeing people increase by 100% or more. It's probably because the numbers people are dealing with seem small, the difference between 1 and 2 is only 1, that's small right? It's easy for someone to forget that 1 -> 2 is double, just like 50 to 100 or 500 to 1000.

One concern that faces most users and is something they can't control though that's a worthy concern with the NBOMes and NBOHs etc is that due to the easy access for bulk powder and such so many people are making their own blotter, and most of them don't have a clue what they're doing and create very uneven dosage across their blotter, in almost all cases that me or anyone I know has encountered any NBOxx on blotter the dosage has varied between blotters in the same batch, a "1mg" blotter could be anywhere from 250ug to 3mg. This is pretty scary for two reasons - one, 3mg of an NBOxx when fully absorbed can be enough to hospitalise or even kill someone (people have gotten away with this and more, but that in no way makes it safe, people have also gotten away with taking more than what should have killed them with Heroin or other such drugs) - and two, someone who intends to take 1mg and gets 250ug will think that 1mg is weak and up their dosage accordingly, and not only that, but they'll likely post on a site like this or tell their friends that 1mg is weak and that people should be taking 3-4mg, putting other users at risk.
 
that pretty much sums it up..sadly I have a lot of fun with 25c-nboh but he's right I've experienced a variation in blotters that were recieved from a very reputable source. so it is worry some.
 
Oral ingestions do work.
It is common to have blotters with very diferent dosages.

This text shows 1 possible reason (dosage).
There are more than a few things that make them dangerous. One of them is the dosagem. Another are residual metabolics. Nbome 25i has more than 35..

Oral ingestion of maybe 20.000ug to 45.000ug. I would guess 30mg. Just guess i Will not explain but there is a reason but the text Will be huge.

the son later admitted to replacing the syrup with an ethanolic solution of 25I-NBOMe, allegedly at a 320 ug/mL

the next dayToxicologySample of the ?analgesic? syrupUnexpectedly high concentration of 2800 ug/mL

https://thedrugclassroom.com/video/25i-nbome/
(Hermanns-Clausen, 2017)

42-year-old male used a pediatric analgesic syrup stored in the family?s refrigerator for a severe headacheHowever, the son later admitted to replacing the syrup with an ethanolic solution of 25I-NBOMe, allegedly at a 320 ug/mL concentration.30 minutes post-administrationComplained of restlessnessArrival at hospitalUnremarkable findings; HR of 96 and BP of 120/80Dilated pupils, strong sweating, disorientation to time and to person, and agitation.20 minutes post-arrivalSevere agitation, screaming, coenesthesia, auditory and somatic hallucinations, and complex visual hallucinations (particularly serious traffic accidents)BP of 127/97 and HR of 100Lab results (incl. creatine kinase, glucose, and blood count) and clinical findings, particular temperature and ECG, weren?t remarkable.Therapy consisted of benzodiazepines (20 mg diazepam total) and IV fluids6 hours post-arrivalSymptoms resolvedDischarged the next dayToxicologySample of the ?analgesic? syrupUnexpectedly high concentration of 2800 ug/mLNeither 2C-I nor 25I-NBOH were found in the liquid.Serum50 minutes post-ingestion25I-NBOMe: 34 ng/mL25I-NBOH: Under 1 ng/mL2C-I: 12 ng/mL13 hours post-ingestion25I-NBOMe: 4.2 ng/mL25I-NBOH: Not detected2C-I: 2.1 ng/mL43.5 hours post-ingestion25I-NBOMe: Not detected25I-NBOH: Not detected2C-I: Under 1 ng/mLUrine16.5 hours post-ingestion25I-NBOMe: Not detected25I-NBOH: Not detected2C-I: 8.2 ng/mL43.5 hours post-ingestion25I-NBOMe: Not detected25I-NBOH: 1.2 ng/mL2C-I: 3.5 ng/mL
 
^ that is so hard to read, but it seems like the gist of it is:

Son puts his 25I solution in bottle of children's analgestic syrup, Dad drinks it for his headache thinking it's still the analgesic, Dad trips balls and goes to hospital, but comes out OK. What a horror!

Moral of the story: 25I-NBOMe is orally active. And label your shit!
 
It was a massive overdose.. I don't think it's actually orally active at normal dosages as most is thought to be 5-demethylated and glucuronidated rapidly. But that doesn't mean it's not possible to compensate by increasing the dosage by a lot (even if unintentional). Also, some may have gotten absorbed semi-parenterally like in the mouth and esophagus and this would still skip first-pass metabolism.

It's true though that some other N-Bz compounds are relatively orally active with intact potency, but these are rather the least lipophilic ones since these appear to have the lowest affinity for the liver enzymes responsible for the very fast metabolism and abolishment of potent oral activity.

I'm surprised he did not have hyperthermia by the way. Seems like he was pretty lucky given the circumstances. Definitely label your shit, and preferably don't "hide" a drug like that but instead put it in like a blue liquid that serves as a warning or something like that.

I wonder if it was meant for sublingual administration.
 
^^^It is orally active. I've tested this out with 25c-nbome and 25b-nbome as did a few of my friends.

One thing we initially found was it didn't seem like the rules of holding your saliva as long as possible, etc, really applied. I've held them in my mouth for as little as a few minutes swallowing my saliva then swallowed at 250ug and felt it strongly. It didn't seem to vary in potency whether it was held in the mouth for a long time or almost immediately swallowed.

I was also one of those people who felt it strongly. 250ug was a good dose for me and a few other people I knew, 500ug was typical for most to have a med-strong experience. A few people I knew needed 1mg though. It varied a lot.

I think dosages for the Nbomes vary due to two reasons; individual variability and impure product. I believe a lot of vendors cut their product as it's easy to get away with it on a cheap highly active substance.

I liked everything about the experience (if you like light mind trip with heavy visuals, it was unique and I like unique..) except the horrible vasoconstriction that seemed to get worse each time I took it.

It's this reason I still have a lifetime supply hiding away, they are psychedelics that are only really useful when that's all that's available (and that isn't a reality yet, if ever..)

-GC
 
^ Thanks for the perspective G chem. I never got to try Nbomes and that is fine. But I always scour through the posts to see if it is liked at all by people who have had other psychedelics. Reading through the posts it is either a poison or nice psychedelic. I think at this point I came to the conclusion it can be a valuable experience but the danger factor makes it something to be really cautious of or not use at all. I still like reading about it though.
 
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