My Case Report of INTENSE Oxy/Kratom Detox

[whiteroom67]

Alright everyone I have been meaning to start this thread for awhile and have finally found the time and motivation to do it. My experiential story is far from over, but I may as well get started. This may be a little long, but for those of you who have been, currently are, or possibly may in the future be addicted to oxy or other opiates, it would behoove you to read my experience here, as I personally feel it contains some valuable info.

To start a small background. I've been on and off opiates for several years now, with oxy being my all-time favorite (even topping heroin, but I've never IV'd so I can't say I know what that is like). Anyway this is hopefully my last and final detox as I am determined to stay off of opiates once and for all (Kratom notwithstanding).

This past detox has been quite the interesting, albeit unpleasant, experience. In the past year, since my last detox, I discovered Kratom. Oh the loves and joys of my sweet little trickster Kratom. I loved it. In stark contrast to actual opiates, I actually found it to be self-regulating. If I took to much, it would just increase the side effects and get shitty. If I started taking it too frequently, I would feel my body start to stagnate and it would be easy to cut back and take short breaks. I thought I had found what I was looking for. Well, eventually, I got bored and lonely and depressed, like I always do, despite whether or not I am using any other substances at the time. I started oxy again. I was able to keep it sort of under control, and limit my use to the point where my withdrawals were minimum. Unfortunately my body is at the point now where if I use for more than 2 days, I will withdraw. Of course that happened, but that's also part of what kept me in check - a constant reminder of what was to come if I didn't listen to what it was telling me. Well, it still got bad. And then I stopped for a week and I felt better. Then it got a little worse again. And then a little better. This went on for a few months from late 2013 to early 2014. Well, turns out I needed surgery again. AGAIN. Third year in a row. Nothing major, but annoying nonetheless. So I went, got a script for percocet. Told the doc my tolerance was high and it wasn't enough. Got another script for pure oxy. Downed those like candy too. Around the clock - probably about 100 mgs of oxy or so a day. All while at the same time, you guessed it, chugging Kratom to potentiate. And taking grapefruit juice and magnesium and Tagamet to potentiate the potentiator. And I would take antacids to potentiate the potentiator of the potetiator. It was glorious. Every day was just another pocket of light embraced within the blissful embryonic fluid of Papaveraceae. Well of course it had to end, I knew this and I thought I was ready. When the time came, only about 2 weeks after starting my 'round-the-clock script, I cut out the oxy - finished the script, but UPPED the Kratom exponentially to cover the withdrawals - probably about 4 huge heaping teaspoons of powder 4 times a day or so (Red Vein Kali - my favorite and what feels like to me the strongest - even moreso than Maeng Da), mixed with the potentiators of the potentiators and so on and so forth...

When I cut the oxy out I felt some withdrawal, but it was totally manageable with the Kratom. "Wow," I thought, "this is great, now all I have to do is cut out the Kratom dose by dose like I always have and I'll be off in no time." And I was on plain leaf too - never messed with extracts, so I figured now I was in the clear.

Oh how wrong I was.

I cut out ONE of my 4 doses, while at the same time switching to Bali. I also started measuring my doses to keep track of how much I was taking so I could accurately taper.

Oh God the horror. It. Was. HORRIFIC. Worse than any other feeling of withdrawal I had been through, and I had been through a lot.

Here is the key people... quitting Kratom on its own, and quitting Kratom after using it to get off of opiates, are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FUCKING ANIMALS.

Quitting Kratom on it's own had always been easy. I would cut out one dose, wait a few days, then another dose, and so on. A few days of discomfort, but nothing a little phenibut, healthy eating and exercise couldn't take care of.

This? No. It was like the worst oxy withdrawal I ever felt, coupled with a Kratom withdrawal that was what seemed to be 10x worse than any Kratom withdrawal I had experienced before it. And this was from cutting out one dose! And switching to a weaker type of course. I knew I would have to taper slowly after this. I wanted to go back up, but after a couple days I said no, I have to stay. I was determined, I stuck with it, waiting for my mind and body to stabilize. Well. here's the kicker: it never did.

That's right, my body NEVER stabilized after 2 weeks of waiting. And at this point I was back at work - still having panic attacks and suicidal depression. I literally felt PSYCHOTIC. NOTE: Psychosis is a VERY REAL Kratom withdrawal symptom that is truly brought to fruition when directly connected with a true opiate withdrawal. Along with the chills, sweats, restlessness and everything else.EVERYBODY knew something was up. I had to take more again. So I did. But now get this, within a couple days yeah I felt better, but not really that much better. I was still withdrawing even after upping my dose back up! What the fuck?! I knew I had to get off as quickly as possible, that I had to get ALL of it out, but I was torn on how to do it. So this time I cut my dose in half. THE SAME FUCKING THING HAPPENED. Now I'm starting to panic. What the hell was going on? My body should be able to stabilize. This can't be happening. Why didn't it stabilize? Well, I don't really know why. I know that Kratom has a unique mix of alkaloids, agonists and antagonists, so maybe that had something to do with it. I was crying everyday now, not just because of the withdrawal directly causing it, but because I was so frustrated that I couldn't even taper. The withdrawal was THAT powerful. Cold turkey was out of the question. There was no way. I couldn't take more time off of work. This is a great job, I'm a supervisor, I hadn't even been there a year, I didn't yet quality for FMLA and I was already out for a month because of the surgery I had just had. I started to taper again...

1 gram per WEEK. And even THAT hurt, a LOT. But it was bearable... barely. But after a couple of weeks, I noticed the same thing... while it would get a little better by the end of the week, my body still never fully stabilized between each taper week. By this point it had been about 4 weeks and I was just starting to accept the fact that withdrawal was my life. I didn't want to use any benzos because I realized the withdrawal wasn't getting better anyway and then I knew I would come out probably still not able to get off of Kratom, along with a newfound benxo addiction.

I now understood this was because taking the oxy around the clock had gotten my body addicted to it fully, and so even long after stopping it, while my body detoxed form some of it, the Kratom simply MAINTAINED a majority of my oxy dependence, you see because they both affect some of the same receptors, specifically the mu and delta opioid receptors. So even though I had previously taken the amount of Kratom I was taking and was easily able to stop, this time, it was simply DELAYING my oxy withdrawal, while still keeping me dependent on Kratom at the same time. I was happy I figured this out, and this is a point that should be noted to anyone planning on attempting to use Kratom to detox from oxy or any other opiates - but I was still freaking out because I didn't know what the fuck to do about it. I called people, I talked to doctors, treatment centers. Nobody even fucking heard of Kratom. I seriously contemplated suicide. It was so fucking painful, and it felt hopeless... and I felt stuck because my withdrawal was never ending. I could never actually bring myself to commit suicide though. I HAD to figure out a way. I wouldn't give up. FUCK YOU DRUGS. I am done.

So then I came across something that to me was a godsend. THIS website. Bluelight showed me the light (and it was Blue). Now I had heard of Clonidine, but it's blood-pressure lowering effects had me concerned, since at work I am on the road driving a majority of the day. Something about it just didn't sit right with me if I was to be up and about doing my day-to-day. But then I came across a thread that mentioned a little something called Gabapentin. Long story short, I went to a treatment center where I signed up for IOP (hence another reason why I couldn't take Valium or Xanax for withdrawal - because they drug test), and after telling the practicing nurse there my situation, she was at first reluctant, not having any experience with Kratom, but hooked me up with some Gabapentin under the guise that "she didn't know it was for Kratom". Well at this point I was taking 3 grams of White Vein Borneo in the morning, the same at lunch time, and then 5 grams of Bali at night (all the while still tortuously dying. Well I quit cold turkey the day after reciving my 30 qnty gaba.

No pain.

None.

It was... a miracle.

Day 1 passed... day 2... day 3 I felt the symptoms worsen a little underneath, but no problem... day 4 came and went, day 5...

A little loperimide helped for the first couple of days (normal doses - not the 48 mg crap I hear of people doing). After day 6 I was done with my script. I couldn't believe it. But now there were a few lingering symptoms, my script was done, and PAWS was starting hardcore... horrible cravings, anxiety and depression. It was the PAWS of Kratom mixed with lingering OXY, not Kratom, physical withdrawals. So, I started taking Kratom again, but not as much! And it took care of it. I'm not planning on quitting Kratom, only getting rid of that God-awful oxy dependency it was maintaining, so I can then use Kratom how I originally did. But I still have ways to go. My tolerance still is pretty high, and there are some of those lingering symptoms underneath still. Well I'm getting some more gabapentin, it will have been about a week since I stopped the gaba and started using Kratom again by then time I get the refill. But my body will have MUCH LESS to get rid of this time around, I will be able to spread the gaba out more, and after another 8 or 9 Kratom-free days on GABA, I think I will be right where I'm comfortable with, or close enough.

So I just wanted to tell my story, and let everyone know what happened.

A few points:

- Don't get addicted to oxy. As a matter of fact, don't even fucking do it. Ever.
- Kratom is great to me as it has many oxy benefits while also seeming self-regualting under normal circumstances.
- Kratom does NOT make it easier to withdraw from opiates. It does NOT make it easier to "taper off". It makes it easier to maintain in the sense that it is safer, legal, and probably cheaper, depending on what you're doing (assuming you stay away from extracts), but that's it. So it still may be a good idea depending on your situation.
-Gabapentin was a lifesaver in the end. As the Kratom withdrawal was much shorter than normal oxy withdrawal would be, waiting for the oxy to get out of my system while maintaining on Kratom, considerably shortened withdrawal when I finally did cut the chord and went on the gaba. The gaba took me through 90% of the entire withdrawal as opposed to just "the worst part of it".

I went back on Kratom somewhat even though I really wanted to wait longer before starting again because: I am a pussy. Lol. I had had enough and I don't want to feel withdrawal ever ever again after this. But I am confident because I know most of that oxy level dependency is gone now. I feel my second cycle of gabapentin shall carry me through to the end clearly.

Keep in mind every individual is different and unique, but this was my experience. Oxy? God willing, never again (and I'm an atheist!).

Though I do believe in spirits and alternate dimensions, thanks to Ayahuasca

Any questions or comments and I'll be happy to discuss.

Peace.

 

[amanitadine]

I've said it before, but Kratom can seriously fucking bite. And in all honesty, in sounds like you are kind of going in circles. Boy do I know (at this point, knew, fingers crossed) the feeling.

I stayed on Kratom for a couple years to "get over " suboxone. And the withdrawal was amongst the worst I ever felt. I just wouldn't get better....even after 60 days without. So two Ibogaine sessions in a months time, and I'm over a month out from Kratom. Still not right, but better. Should I find myself on Kratom again I will go on a straight opioid agonist to "get over" the Kratom withdrawals. I find Kratom withdrawals worse than heroin, oxy, etc, in that they effect so many more neurotransmitter systems and never end.

Good luck!

 

[whiteroom67]

Yeah for real... honestly though I don't mind using Kratom regularly, I really don't mind the habit at all... but when I used it to get off oxy it was a whole different ballgame. But it's so true as far as it affecting a lot more neurotransmitters than regular opiates. That's why I vow to stay away from extracts with the exception of an occasional treat every now and then. But what can I say, I love the stuff. I'm just so much more relaxed and confident while taking it, even with a tolerance. I'm just glad I'm off the oxys - way too expensive and fucks with my moods too much (except for the first week or two of relapse, which feels pretty good). But no! I shall not return lol. Not to mention the oxys ruined my tolerance with Kratom which is what I miss and what I'm working on getting back now.

Gabapentin really did work well for getting through the initial detox of it all though. Like I said I'm planning on using it for another week or so to get my tolerance back down even further. The oxy part of the detox is just about out of my system. If you ever do find yourself in that type of situation, please remember this post, and talk to a doctor about the option of gaba as opposed to an opioid agonist and see what they say - because honestly, it worked for me, VERY WELL. But of course get their opinion.

 

[cdin]

i have just massively tapered and am about to jump off kratom almost painlessly using banisteriopsis caapi extract drank throughout the day ~40g in 1oz extract mixed with water, 5 - 10g at a time. It's really worked wonders. I'm trying to get this more known, syrian rue apparently works

 

[whiteroom67]

I actually have a shit ton of Syrian Rue and actually considered trying it, but didn't due to worries about diet, not knowing how much to take for withdrawal, possibly having a bad reaction, etc. That's interesting though. More people would need to try it to prove it works for everyone though.

For me: Oxy ---> Kratom ---> Gabapentin --- plus good diet, exercise, multivitamin, fish oil, valerian, ashwaghanda, some rhodiola (Sunny Mood pills - AMAZING after the first few days of detox are over) all worked for an almost painless experience. I did experience pain as you can see in my story, but that was simply because it was new for me and I didn;t know what I was doing. Knowing what I know now, I could do the same thing and know exactly hat to do to reduce the pain to a minimum. But see that was another reason I didn't want to try the Rue I had... I was taking so much other shit, who knows about the possible interaction with a strong MAOI like that. But keep us updated on how it works. You should start a thread on it if you haven't already.

 

[Boognish]

Kratom by itself gives me the WORST withdrawals! I will take oxy wd's ANYDAY over that horse shit of a drug!! This is the truth, I know nobody on here wants to here anything bad about their precious fucking herb, but guess what? It's true, different body chemistry or something - I've been trying to figure out why some people get zero wd's and others get the most hellish experience of their life.
I've heard talk of vendors adding mitragynine analogs to kratom, and I have long suspected alcohol used in combination with kratom possibly exacerbates wd's but I don't really know. What I do know is that this is no harmless-as-coffee fucking herb to everybody that indulges. Any thoughts?

 

[whiteroom67]

Kratom by itself gives me the WORST withdrawals! I will take oxy wd's ANYDAY over that horse shit of a drug!! This is the truth, I know nobody on here wants to here anything bad about their precious fucking herb, but guess what? It's true, different body chemistry or something - I've been trying to figure out why some people get zero wd's and others get the most hellish experience of their life.
I've heard talk of vendors adding mitragynine analogs to kratom, and I have long suspected alcohol used in combination with kratom possibly exacerbates wd's but I don't really know. What I do know is that this is no harmless-as-coffee fucking herb to everybody that indulges. Any thoughts?

Well it's definitely true that I have heard of like you said some people getting hardly any withdrawals and some people getting HORRID withdrawals. My last situation was horrible - but for me there was a clear difference why.

Not including this past whole experience with Kratom... I would drink alcohol with Kratom on occasion if the situation calls for it but on typical days I wouldn't make it anywhere near a habit. I also rarely ever use extracts. I normally cycle between White Vein Borneo and Red Vein Kali. Sometimes I'll use Green Thai, and once in awhile I'll use Bali. Also, normally (again, when not using to get off of oxy or something like that), I would on average stick to once or twice per day, with only the occasional day here or there going over that. Plus I will force myself at least a 2 or 3 day break every couple of weeks now and then. Since this past whole incident though I find it's been harder to stick to that, my mind definitely craves it more now than it did before this whole thing happened.

Individual chemistry, frequency of use, size of dosage, length of use without breaks for at least a couple days, not cycling strains, and mixing with other things with it I can all see contributing to a worse case of withdrawal. But these are just speculations.

And yes, I also have heard rumors of some vendors adding "stuff" to their Kratom. Whether this is true or not I have no idea, but I wouldn't doubt it being possible. I personally have stuck with the same vendor since the very beginning and haven't had any problems that I am aware of. I don't get "extra samples, etc" from them like I have heard of some vendors doing, but they seem professional - more professional then other vendors I have observed (but haven't tried).

How often do you use Kratom? And do you use extracts? Analyze your usage. Again individual chemistry I would think can be a biggie.

 

[JackARoe]

Here is the key people... quitting Kratom on its own, and quitting Kratom after using it to get off of opiates, are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FUCKING ANIMALS.

Quitting Kratom on it's own had always been easy. I would cut out one dose, wait a few days, then another dose, and so on. A few days of discomfort, but nothing a little phenibut, healthy eating and exercise couldn't take care of.

I have been saying this for years. Back in 2006 I used kratom to come off poppy tea. It helped but poppy tea withdrawal is up there as some of the worst for me. When I stopped the kratom it seemed the poppy tea withdrawal was back full force. Almost as if the kratom just held it in place. Fast forward two years I start kratom from a clean slate. Large amounts. But stopping from just kratom was no where as near as bad as when I used to to get off poppy tea. But then I got up to 50 grams of leaf a day for a year. Stopping that was brutal too. But now I got down about 12 gr once or twice a day. When I skip a day or two all I get is lethargy and some restlessness that can be ignored if I am busy. With poppy tea I could not get out of bed (or lay down for that matter) for a long time.

I always thought that when kratom is used to come off an opiate that the receptors stay exactly where they are with kratom use. But if kratom is started from a clean slate then the withdrawal is not that bad. Not as many receptoral (is that a word?) changes on it's own. (total speculation of course)

Also although kratom has a withdrawal, gradually lowering can be real easy if one is motivated. If one is not motivated, increasing use and times of use will only cause trouble. Keeping it low and spaced out makes it easier to stop. Although I have not stopped the last two years, when I skip a day it is mild due to the low amounts and once or twice a day frequency.

But this report confirms my supsicions; using kratom to come off a heavier opiate seems to hold that original withdrawal in place. At least I believe that based off of my few kratom kicks at different times.

 

[whiteroom67]

I never got onto poppy pod tea... something I would like to try but at that same time since I'm clean from actual opiates now I feel like it would be a pretty shitty decision to go back like that if I don't have to. It's so true about Kratom withdrawal though... I still have slight residual withdrawals from the oxy (like ~3-5 percent strength) that are still there, just because of the fact that my willpower sucks so bad I can't not do Kratom for a week just to completely clear my system enough. Like you said, I'm just not motivated enough to do it. I do have some gabapentin ready to go though for when I do.

I'm dying to have an Iboga initiation though. I just don't know when/where to do it or who would be mature enough and willing to be my sitter for 3+ days. I feel like that would clear my mind of the cravings and such.

 

[amanitadine]

^ Iboga works well for the opioid aspects of Kratom withdrawals but certainly not for the more insidious antidepressant/Gabapentin/etc like "secondary" phase. Trust me, I've tried it twice. I'd switch to a straight opioid for a few months pre Iboga if that is the route you are going to go.

FWIW I am one who finds Kratom withdrawals to be amongst the worst of the worst. This is with dosing 30-50 g of PL a day however. Went straight from suboxone to Kratom for 2.5 years and the withdrawals were absolutely brutal. Couldn't taper for shit, unlike my experiences with tapering other opioids like heroin, methadone, suboxone, etc. Just couldn't do it. So I kicked CT and made it over two months but still felt like absolute hell, so got back on.

It seems to vary quite a bit but there are many reports of people on here who found Kratom withdrawals absolutely terrible with no prior opioid addictions. Later, with experience with other opioids they still reported kratom WD's to be the worst. And yet there are reports of people who get off easy. YMMV like usual.

I think a good number of people never stay off of Kratom long enough after starting to accurately report on the WD's. Many kick for a week or two but go back, due to it's ease of access. But yeah, the coffee analogy is ridiculous...i understand the desire to downplay it to help "keep it legal" but many are drawn in by such misinformation and end up in a world of hurt. I would rather kick H any day over long term high dose Kratom use. It is seriously fucking nasty to come off of for me.....much like poppy tea, it feels (and is) like kicking a few dozen drugs at once.....but kratoms alkaloids have an ever more mixed spectrum of action than poppy tea.

Be warned! Just don't abuse the shit out of it......and if used for maintenance after an opioid problem somehow find it in you to taper, taper, taper!

I am very experienced with kicking just about anything and everything. And Kratom was probably the hardest...not as dramatic as kicking a triple digit methadone habit CT but longer lasting and ultimately more difficult.

 

[whiteroom67]

Yeah see I never got above 30g a day and that was only when I was maintaining the oxy dependence for about a month or so. For me it's typically never above 15g in a day.
But you are right... I was never able to kick Kratom for more than a week or a week and a half before going back, not because of the physical withdrawals still being present, but just the mental cravings and feelings of "necessity". The closest I got was when I went on an Ayahuasca retreat for 7 days... I quit Kratom about 3 or 4 days before leaving so was clean off Kratom for about 10 days or so. Then I got back from Ecuador and felt I wouldn't have needed it except I felt REALLY weird and uncomfortable from the last night of my Aya trip... it was a really strong trip and I didn't purge when I should have... I held it in. It fucked me up and I think that because of holding that in it fucked my mind up a bit (I was having these weird electric shock like feelings periodically, on top of a free-floating dreamy unsettling feeling, with some anxiety, and I ended up starting to dose on Kratom again after getting home to make myself feel better... and then the habit started again. Eventually I just went back on oxy and that was that.

I do plan on doing another Aya retreat at some point in the future and actually PURGING this time when it TELLS ME TO. That was the problem... I didn't listen to it and purged when I should have. But this is also part of why I want to do an Iboga ceremony. No purging to worry about, etc. Just a pure psychospiritual experience with hopefully a complete physical reset of my brain to rid myself of any psychological addiction involving Kratom, Oxy or anything else. Since I'm not physically addicted to antying at the moment, including Kratom (I am somehow moderating my use just enough to avoid physical dependence), I have confidence that when I do complete my Iboga initiation, it will work and I won't have to worry about any of those antidepressent withdrawal effects to deal with also. I hope.

 

[Xorkoth]

Kratom by itself gives me the WORST withdrawals! I will take oxy wd's ANYDAY over that horse shit of a drug!! This is the truth, I know nobody on here wants to here anything bad about their precious fucking herb, but guess what? It's true, different body chemistry or something - I've been trying to figure out why some people get zero wd's and others get the most hellish experience of their life.
I've heard talk of vendors adding mitragynine analogs to kratom, and I have long suspected alcohol used in combination with kratom possibly exacerbates wd's but I don't really know. What I do know is that this is no harmless-as-coffee fucking herb to everybody that indulges. Any thoughts?

Yeah me too. I was doing 8-10 gram doses 4 or 5 times a day, 3 minimum, for 7 years (the second half was when it was that bad but iyt was daily for 7 years). The withdrawals were fucking hell, though for me they were over quite quick. The worst restlessness of any opiate by far, intense anxiety and depression, terrible leg soreness, jumping out of my skin, the restlessness was so bad that I had crazy ARMS at night, no sleep for 5 days. I actually disliked heroin withdrawal worse (from snorting for 1-2 weeks every day), but physically it was easier, however heroin mentally made me feel literally sick, like I was totally enveloped in darkness and emotional pain, a really dark, creepy feeling, it made me feel not like myself at all.

I just got off opiates with a flood dose of ibogaine, which was the most incredible experience of my life. I'm writing a report about it, which is going to really be more of a short story.

 

[whiteroom67]

I actually found with Kratom when I take it by itself (not connected to other opiates), that I actually start to feel crappy from it within a relatively short amount of time. Like right now - For the past few days I have been taking exactly that: probably around 6-8 gram doses several times a day. And really, I just feel like shit. So now it will be pretty easy to stop for at least just a few days and be fine, because my doses don't feel euphoric at all anymore - and I'm not even addicted to it yet (again). My problem is then I just feel fucking BORED like I just NEED to have something in my brain anyway. Potion 9's from Nutrition Zone are fun, but they last like, an hour.

Hence...

I CANNOT WAIT for my Iboga adventure/transformation. Once I have my own place, which should be soon, the "where" will be covered. I have vacation time I can take from work, so I'm good with the "when". The real problem is finding a sitter that is actually knowledgeable AND mature - someone to rely on, and who will be available for me the whole time. I know literally - no one lol.

 

[dayvid913]

if i didnt know better, i could have posted this, because this situation is my life too.EXACTLY !!!!!!!

 

[Hedonistica]

Have detoxed from various things over the years - Oxycodone, Kratom and codeine, and kratom is always the worst for the bodily withdrawal at least - I cannot get comfortable for a second, it's RLS but all over the body for about 48 hours - horrible. Fortunately I find they do ease off over several days though. If I was of a mind to I would try separate use and withdrawal cycles to observe different effects more closely as it's hard from memory, but yeah on an instinct level kratom WD is what I fear the most.

Ironically however, I find when I start mixing my kratom and codeine use, my use of both actually goes down, which is where I am now, where I would need 300mg of codeine to start the day, at the moment 75mg, followed an hour later by 10g or so of stem powder, has me feeling dandy. Also find I get a real buzz if I dose 300mg of codeine and a few grams of Bali, taking the kratom after the codeine really does synergise for me.

 

[Xorkoth]

I actually found with Kratom when I take it by itself (not connected to other opiates), that I actually start to feel crappy from it within a relatively short amount of time. Like right now - For the past few days I have been taking exactly that: probably around 6-8 gram doses several times a day. And really, I just feel like shit. So now it will be pretty easy to stop for at least just a few days and be fine, because my doses don't feel euphoric at all anymore - and I'm not even addicted to it yet (again). My problem is then I just feel fucking BORED like I just NEED to have something in my brain anyway. Potion 9's from Nutrition Zone are fun, but they last like, an hour.

When I first started kratom, I had very little opiate experience. I felt AMAZING from it every single time, for many months. Eventually I started to feel much less amazing. Then after I had detoxed and relapsed quite a few times, years later, I found that rather than just making me feel kind of good, as it had been doing for a long time, it started to make me feel more or less kind of crappy every time, it's just that I felt less crappy than I did when I didn't take it because at least I wasn't in withdrawal. Kratom isn't sustainable long-term, unless you use it sparingly and never develop an addiction.