Bluelight

Thread: Kratom withdrawal preserving oxycodone level dependence?

Results 1 to 12 of 12

Hybrid View

  1. Collapse Details
    Kratom withdrawal preserving oxycodone level dependence? 
    #1
    Greenlighter
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    12
    Hey everyone, first I just wanna say that I've always used bluelight and other forums just as an observer to find really great info and get me through some tough times in the past, but this is the first time I finally joined and am posting a thread.

    Anyway, for my question... I was taking oxycodone for a long time on and off, mostly due to medical reasons, though I can't say that I didn't allow myself to get more out of it than was initially intended. This has been on and off for several years. I've withdrawn several times and it was never fun. There have certainly been multi-month periods of pretty much complete sobriety, aside from a few occasional indulgences in some other less harmful/less addictive things, but nothing crazy or what I would consider bad or out of hand.

    So in the past year, I discovered Kratom. Oh how I loved this. I figured it was a safer and less addictive substitute for opiates. Well just recently I had surgery again, and haven't yet worked up the will to say "no" to the doc regarding that stuff when offered... so I went back on it. Pretty decent size doses (~20 mg), several times per day, every day for almost a month or so. Now everyone knows once you're addicted to something once, the dependence (physical and psychological), comes back a hell of a lot faster the next time. Well that's exactly what happened. But this time I figured I had a new weapon in my arsenal: Kratom. I had heard of people using this to come off of opiates, so I figured that's what I would do. And that's what I did. I never used extracts, only plain leaf, but strong leaf (Red Kali mostly). I was taking maybe ~8 grams or so usually 3 or 4 times a day after stopping the oxy. I did this for several weeks, about a month, after stopping the oxy. While I still felt the withdrawals from the oxy, it wasn't that bad and I figured now coming off of Kratom would be cake, considering I had done it before a couple times and while it was annoying, it wasn't too too bad. I was always pretty good with Kratom, until I started the pills again.

    Well, I lowered my intake to just 2x a day (morning and after work), about 5 grams per dose, of plain Bali powder. I realize all together this equals a pretty big drop off. Well the withdrawals SUCKED and it included a not-so-fabulous panic attack at work that pretty much everyone noticed and almost suicidal depression at one point (the 3rd day). I mean this was BAD. Like just as intense as oxy withdrawal but with more depression thrown in. It's about a week later and I still feel chills, anxiety (probably the worst symptom for me), restlessness, etc. Is this only the kratom withdrawal I'm feeling and me just making too big of a jump? Or is it possible that the kratom was actually "holding in" the oxy withdrawal and is letting it all out now... in other words even if I taper do I still have to expect oxy level withdrawals?

    What would be a good taper plan at this point? Has anyone actually done a taper program personally and had it work well? Has anyone gone through Kratom withdrawals both alone and another time after transferring from an opiate habit and seen a big difference? I have some tulsi tea, ashwaghanda and phenibut to help, along with some L-tyrosine which I would take in the morning (which doesn't seem to do much of anything) and tryptophan and melatonin to take at night. And I always take multivitamins and fish oil anyway, and try to eat fruits/veggies whenever I can including a banana every day in the morning. I try to get some exercise when I can, which helps during but afterwards it just goes right back to being crappy again. I just ordered some stem and vein powder to try tapering with but I've never tried it before (it probably won't come until next week). I want to finish tapering but I'm just so scared to have it be as bad as the first jump off. I haven't even recovered from that jump yet and it's a week later. I'm torn between tapering and just jumping off to just be done with it, but... considering I have to maintain myself at work I feel like jumping off probably wouldn't be such a good idea - especially considering what happened the first time... and it doesn't even seem worth it since a week later staying at the same amount (~5 grams 2x per day of Bali/Green Thai) I'm still feeling withdrawals anyway (though not as bad). Even if I stay at this frequency/dose/strain, I've been through withdrawals so many times I can't deal with it anymore. I already made myself an appt at an outpatient program for opiates next week. Any advice for all this? It feels just as hard if not harder than oxy withdrawal.

    Sorry long post, thanks in advance everyone.
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
     
    #2
    Moderator
    Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion
    sekio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    streets of simcity
    Posts
    19,095
    Or is it possible that the kratom was actually "holding in" the oxy withdrawal and is letting it all out now... in other words even if I taper do I still have to expect oxy level withdrawals?
    This is pretty much the case, yeah. Using high doses of kratom 3-4x a day will substitute pretty nicely for daily oxycodone usage, but the fact of the matter is it's still binding to, and activating your opioid receptors. It's pretty much just extending your oxycodone withdrawals. In fact it adds a little action of its own, too, because it acts as an adrenaline/norepinephrine mimic.

    The simple answer is, taper much more slowly if you want to avoid feeling like utter shit. Nobody can jump off of high dose opioids and feel fine. Especially not when you jump from a dose to less than 25% of it.

    The core concept of a taper is simple on paper, but hard to execute with habit-forming drugs. The idea is to take the minimum amount of opioid to bring the aches and pains to a manageable level, and most importantly, to keep reducing it. If you don't actually reduce your dose, it's not a taper.

    You have two options that lead out of this: drop it cold turkey, take some time off work for "a bad flu", and wait it out, or plan a dosing schedule that reduces by 1-2 grams every few days and adhere to it.

    Keep in mind how crappy the withdrawals feel when you're tempted to say "fuck it, i'll take my same dose today". You're only extending them.
    Guidelines for OD ||| OD Standards ||| OD Directory Read Me First! ||| NPD Rules
    Please read the links above or PM me if I lock your post. Stay Safe. R.I.P. F28
    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
     
    #3
    Greenlighter
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    12
    So should I stick to the same 2 dose per day idea and drop .5 to 1 gram off of both doses once every 3 or 4 days? And should I wait until I stop feeling the withdrawals from the last drop off until I taper more?

    By the way, last night I screwed up and took one extra dose (~5g) about 2 hours before bed. This was mainly because I had a couple beers and realized shortly afterwards how much worse it made me feel. You don't think this one extra dose will reverse everything back to last week again do you? I'm hoping not.

    And also, I was taking a Tagamet for potentiation for one of those doses, would stopping that alone contribute to withdrawals also?
    Last edited by kickingOPnK; 29-03-2014 at 02:05.
    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
     
    #4
    The further you move from the OC abuse the better you'll feel.The Kratom extending but also decreasing withdrawals. I did the same with Bupe (quit for 3 days relapsed to Kratom then kicked the dependence later before going back to somewhat regular use). The w/d from the Kratom were super tolerable, way better then the 3 days before I started taking it.

    If I were you I would cut back my Kratom doses to 4x 3.5 grams a day. The first two days you'll feel crappy, then youll be ok. Once your ok cut the first two doses, and use the last two for some normal time and sleep. Once you can survive that your ready to jump, for me the w/d from 7 grams of Kratom a day are literally the most minor drug w/d I've gone through. And aside from opiates (which I enjoy enough to try and manage in my life) I used to binge/quit drugs over 4-5 week periods all the time, so I've felt lots of different types.

    You might not need to backtrack if your stable at your current dose, but it didn't sound like you had stabilizing yet, and sometimes backtracking isn't the worst if it makes the process easier to stick too overall.
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
     
    #5
    Greenlighter
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    12
    Well I'm not fully stabilized yet but I'm def a lot better off than I was. I'm gonna stay here for a little while though, especially because I ran out of Tagamet today too. I'm assuming I should be stabilized here after a couple of days, and then my plan is to decrease 1-2 grams per day, focusing more on tapering the morning dose to get rid of that first like you said, until I get to around 4 grams of Thai at night or so, and then I'll attempt a jump off from there. If I can't deal with the jump off at 4 grams I'll go back up to 3 grams per day and keep tapering again from there.

    It just seems so much worse this time because of the oxy being connected to it. I am determined to get through this though. I'm trying to view it as some sort of Buddhist-like psycho-spiritual test of suffering well, or something like that... ha
    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
     
    #6
    Greenlighter
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    12
    Oh and I should be getting the stem and vein powder too which should help I'm thinking.
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
     
    #7
    Moderator
    Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion
    sekio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    streets of simcity
    Posts
    19,095
    I'm assuming I should be stabilized here after a couple of days, and then my plan is to decrease 1-2 grams per day, focusing more on tapering the morning dose to get rid of that first like you said, until I get to around 4 grams of Thai at night or so, and then I'll attempt a jump off from there. If I can't deal with the jump off at 4 grams I'll go back up to 3 grams per day and keep tapering again from there.
    Sounds like a plan. Good luck!
    Guidelines for OD ||| OD Standards ||| OD Directory Read Me First! ||| NPD Rules
    Please read the links above or PM me if I lock your post. Stay Safe. R.I.P. F28
    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
     
    #8
    Bluelighter sarajenni88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    *i never really wanted u to see the screwed up side of me that i keep locked inside of me so deep*
    Posts
    156
    Just wanted to stop by and read ur thread since uve read mine. : )
    Are u still planning on getting more opiates or are u going to stick with the kratom taper? Ur advice to me was very inspirational and I think that ur mindset is going to help u thru this if getting off opiates is what u want.
    Flaga has awesome advice on kratom so use use that to help.
    Good luck. Hang in there.
    Thinking of this struggle in spiritual ways is so smart!! It will again help ur over all mindset. Opiate withdrawal is scary and traumatic but u can come out on the other side as I stronger person.
    ;
    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
     
    #9
    Greenlighter
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by sarajenni88 View Post
    Just wanted to stop by and read ur thread since uve read mine. : )
    Are u still planning on getting more opiates or are u going to stick with the kratom taper? Ur advice to me was very inspirational and I think that ur mindset is going to help u thru this if getting off opiates is what u want.
    Flaga has awesome advice on kratom so use use that to help.
    Good luck. Hang in there.
    Thinking of this struggle in spiritual ways is so smart!! It will again help ur over all mindset. Opiate withdrawal is scary and traumatic but u can come out on the other side as I stronger person.
    ;
    Aw thanks No I really want to be done with opiates, they are way too expensive and way too addicting. I've had my time with them for the past 6 years and it's really time to move on. Kratom I would be comfortable using here and there. I was never really too bad with Kratom use until my opiate use got out of control again. Basically, my plan is to get clean, even from Kratom, for at least a little while, and then really follow through with complete abstinence with actual opiates forever and just moderate my Kratom use.

    I actually feel a lot better today already, the anxiety is a lot less, just some chills and a slight restlessness but nothing crazy. I'm down to 4 grams of Green Thai in the morning and 5 grams of Bali around dinner time. If I can cut out the morning dose maybe sometime within the next week and get my Bali down to 4 grams instead of 5, I'll be a lot more comfortable. From there I'll probably jump off for awhile and stabilize. Switching from Bali to Thai seemed to help because the Green Thai seems to have a lot less euphoria than Bali, at least for me, so it helps to get over not getting high while not completely breaking the habit of taking Kratom while still tapering.
    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
     
    #10
    Bluelighter sarajenni88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    *i never really wanted u to see the screwed up side of me that i keep locked inside of me so deep*
    Posts
    156
    Thumbs up
    Quote Originally Posted by kickingOPnK View Post
    Aw thanks No I really want to be done with opiates, they are way too expensive and way too addicting. I've had my time with them for the past 6 years and it's really time to move on. Kratom I would be comfortable using here and there. I was never really too bad with Kratom use until my opiate use got out of control again. Basically, my plan is to get clean, even from Kratom, for at least a little while, and then really follow through with complete abstinence with actual opiates forever and just moderate my Kratom use.

    I actually feel a lot better today already, the anxiety is a lot less, just some chills and a slight restlessness but nothing crazy. I'm down to 4 grams of Green Thai in the morning and 5 grams of Bali around dinner time. If I can cut out the morning dose maybe sometime within the next week and get my Bali down to 4 grams instead of 5, I'll be a lot more comfortable. From there I'll probably jump off for awhile and stabilize. Switching from Bali to Thai seemed to help because the Green Thai seems to have a lot less euphoria than Bali, at least for me, so it helps to get over not getting high while not completely breaking the habit of taking Kratom while still tapering.
    That's awesome good to hear ur feeling better
    So am I correct in assuming that Bali would be less stimulating? I have incredible anxiety when in w/d and I am wondering if a more stimulating strain might exasturbate (sp sorry) anxiety??
    Reply With Quote
     

  11. Collapse Details
     
    #11
    Greenlighter
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    12
    Bali is a red vein and as such is definitely less stimulating and more relaxing/better for pain. And Red Vein Kali knocks Bali out of the park even further as far as that - it's like Bali x 2. White veins are more stimulating (Green veins being middle of the road more or less, but less euphoric I found, at least for me). But it's a different type of stimulation. It's not really edgy or anxiety-ridden like amphetamines are - it's completely different and I find the stimulation to be a more relaxing type of energy rather than a high-strung jittery cracked out one - kinda like that first hour of a low-mid dose of oxy. Keep in mind it's still just Kratom. But switching from opiates to Kratom I would say you can use a FST (full spectrum tincture) for maybe 1 or 2 days - ONLY, no more, though even that's definitely not necessary, then immediately go to Red Vein Kali, from there drop down to Bali, and from there maybe Green Thai, switching every few days. After that if you still think you need something less again, go with stem and vein powder for the very end of your taper. My vendor doesn't sell it though and I haven't been using it. But of course you might need to experiment and see how the strains affect you as an individual. Cycling strains keep you from getting used to any one strain too and helps keep tolerance lower. Phenibut for a day or two will help with each time you switch to lower potency and also the days you lower dose.

    But no, I wouldn't say the stimulating strains of Kratom will exacerbate anxiety like amphetamines or other classical stimulants would, but again, everyone's different. Experiment first and see how you react to each strain.
    Reply With Quote
     

  12. Collapse Details
     
    #12
    Bali is the most relaxing and sedating for me. But when your dose works right on any strain you won't have w.d bars anxiety.
    Reply With Quote
     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •