mitragynine pseudoindoxyl instability

[Hammilton]

It seems that there is a kratom product on the market that is actually not merely an extract but a semi-synthetic. It seems likely that the identity of the derivative is mitragynine pseudoindoxyl or a close analogue. I had some of my first experiences with it yesterday and while they're documented elsewhere on the site here, I'll simply say that 1g was a wonderful dose.

However, I have a question about the stability of this compound, specifically in solution.

I made up a 1.13g blend with applesauce before going to work, and consumed it on an entirely empty stomach 10 hours later, just as I was leaving. This was 130mg more thanI'd taken before, so I was expecting it to be stronger.

Reasonable, I think.

However, it was almost entirely without effect. Two hours later I mixed another 1.25g and consumed it in the same manner, only without letting it sit first. This was strong, comparable to my first experience.

I'd like to try this again, but given the price I'm gonna pass- I don't want to mix up a gram and let it sit to see if it becomes inactive again.

Is there reason to believe that mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is unstable in an aqueous solution? Perhaps that's why it's found at such low levels naturally.

 

[sekio]

Like most kratom alkaloids, the ester linkage can get fucked up if you store it in aqueous acid/base. I wouldn't store it wet for any longer than I had to.

I thought this happens with "plain" kratom too - take 10 grams of kratom and toss/wash, then take 10 grams and boil it for an hour, then see which is more effective(!).

 

[《Plasticity》]

^ if the tea isn't at a roaring boil I find the dose for both is the same and tea actually hits harder as it enters the bloodstream quicker. Also, I make all my doses the morning and they're just as effective in the evening despite being in a solution all day.

 

[Hammilton]

Yeah, I've never found any difference in effectiveness and I did boil it hard until there was little fluid left.

Is there anything about the spiro motif that's not stable in solution?

 

[《Plasticity》]

Pseudoindoxyl is so rare and unstudied as an isolated alkaloid that I think this is gonna remain a mystery, it is very strange that it lost it's effect that quickly. Were there any other factors at play like a full stomach or something? What makes this even more shocking is that it was stored in applesauce and not a pure aqueous solution, perhaps pseudoindoxyl is sensitive to the acidity??? It's gotta be the applesauce if it's not you because FST is a liquid and it's obviously stable in that solution, I'm presuming the liquid used is ethanol.

 

[Hammilton]

Yeah, that's true, I didn't even think of that. I tried it again today and 1.5g was perfectly effective. I dunno.

 

[《Plasticity》]

In applesauce? Hmm, chalk it up to funky metabolism I guess *shrugs*

 

[Hammilton]

I blend all my kratom with a bit of applesauce or yogurt. No good explanation apparently. I can live with that. Maybe my scale was off somehow or something else I didn't notice

 

[ShaunG]

Im guessing he is using UEI if he is using grams for measurements. If this is the case, I am sure there are "hot spots" in the kratom powder as it probably is not likely all the "pure alkaloid" is spread out evenly on any enhanced product. FST would be mgs so I do not think that is what OP was referring to.

 

[《Plasticity》]

^ What I was getting at is FST is also purported to contain pseudo-indoxyl just like UEI (they are indeed very similar, if not the same in effect) therefor if M-PI is in both FST and UEI then it has proven to be stable in an alcohol solution.

 

[ShaunG]

I agree. I just interpreted the OPs question differently. I am surprised that no one has tested it to confirm pseudoindoxly. I think it might be a close analogue, but not sure its pseudoindoxyl. They actually list pseudoindoxyl in the description of their oxindole enhanced bali, but not in UEI and FST. I think its crazy that no one still knows for certain after all this time lol...

 

[Hammilton]

The oxindole enhanced stuff is so very, very different, I almost wonder if it doesn't contain some sort of amphetamine-like stimulant, in structure or effect. It's pleasant, but it seems like a pure stimulant, does little to alleviate withdrawal. Enjoyable, but not an opioid.

 

[herbdave]

The same EXACT thing happened to me with the oeb. Mix up some tea take a mouthful or two and effect very strong. Leave tea sit for several hours and the effect weakens substantially.
I also noticed that taking it on a empty stomach seems to dull the effect, eating lightly maybe 30 minutes after taking tea the effects are strong.
I have consistently reproduced this effect concerning leaving the tea sit for hours for later use. That said I have wasted money because of this action regarding unused tea and leaving it sit.
My advice is mix only as much tea as you'll use at that time and take it all at once. Concerning eating food, I guess its possible eating lightly can enhance absorption by stimulating the the digestive tract. I still need to determine for sure, if eating enhances or dulls the effects.

 

[Mitranalogynine]

Is it really you!? the Hammilton from Hamilton's Pharmacopeia? I have been seeing your posts all over bluelight for awhile now, and I've finally convinced myself that there is a possibility you are the person I have looked up to from the moment I ever saw the first show. If you are, I am a huge fan. I am currently working on developing mitragynine analogues for a university (pm me for info) in an attempt to develop at least one with a theraputic index similar to morphine, that does not affect b-arrestin-2 recruitment (often thought to be responsible for physical dependance, which if you are the right person you likely know). Currently, I am working on utilizing computational chemistry to find the best potential candidates, and will take the top 3-5 and synthesize/test them. If you are the who I hope you are, I would love to consult with you, share the details of my research, or get involved in any way possible with your work. I tried to PM you, but it says your mailbox is full. Please PM me contact info if you are interested in any of the above.

Keep on rockin!

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

If he isn't, you still have plenty to learn from him, he's one of the brighter individuals on BL.

 

[Mitranalogynine]

If he isn't, you still have plenty to learn from him, he's one of the brighter individuals on BL.

Hence why i thought there is a good possibility. I see him posting knowledgeable information on the majority of the threads I peruse. Either way I have already learned a lot from this individual.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

As for kratom, aren't there some delta-OR agonists in there? these extracts seem VERY similar to my experiences with alpha-chloromorphide, which barring any specific data I can only conclude it has some such effect.

Seems stimulant-like, although only psychostimulant rather than periphal?[ possibly a convulsant at higher doses? I've been rather curious about DOR agonists in kratom since my fucking around with alpha-chloromorphide.

 

[Mitranalogynine]

From all the binding affinities I have seen of mitragynine analogues, the only one that i know of that has had delta agonism is switching the methoxy at the 1 postion for a phenyl group, which i do not believe occurs naturally. I think that 1-phenyl is necessary in order to fit into delta/kappa (substituded phenyl groups potentially will work as well). see
V?radi, A., Marrone, G. F., Palmer, T. C., Narayan, A., Szab?, M. R., Rouzic, V. L., . . . Majumdar, S. (2016). Mitragynine/Corynantheidine Pseudoindoxyls As Opioid Analgesics with Mu Agonism and Delta Antagonism, Which Do Not Recruit β-Arrestin-2. Journal of Medicinal Chemistry,59(18), 8381-8397. doi:10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00748
t

Title is a little confusing, look at the binding affinities. Only one that shows agonism @ dor is trading out the methoxy for a phenyl group @ the 1 position.It is possible there are other alkaloids that are delta agonists. I believe i did see something recently that most extracts on the market are almost exclusively mitragynine and lack the other alkaloids typically found in kratom. I do not have the source for that one, but it does line up with the experience that I have had. For me personally I have never felt any "opiod" effects from extracts, and receive much better pain relief from powdered leaf.

 

[novaveritas]

Is it really you!? the Hammilton from Hamilton's Pharmacopeia? I have been seeing your posts all over bluelight for awhile now, and I've finally convinced myself that there is a possibility you are the person I have looked up to from the moment I ever saw the first show. If you are, I am a huge fan. I am currently working on developing mitragynine analogues for a university (pm me for info) in an attempt to develop at least one with a theraputic index similar to morphine, that does not affect b-arrestin-2 recruitment (often thought to be responsible for physical dependance, which if you are the right person you likely know). Currently, I am working on utilizing computational chemistry to find the best potential candidates, and will take the top 3-5 and synthesize/test them. If you are the who I hope you are, I would love to consult with you, share the details of my research, or get involved in any way possible with your work. I tried to PM you, but it says your mailbox is full. Please PM me contact info if you are interested in any of the above. Keep on rockin!

no that isn't Hammilton Morris who used to post on Bluelight with the handle hamhurricanes. Search for the user to find posts by him. This Hammilton has posted many original ideas and concepts and is more worthy of respect than Morris drug groupie and self publicist kinda like the Vice version of Daniel Pinchbeck.

 

[Botanical Baron]

Couldn't of said it better myself, Hamilton Morris also does not indulge in opiates on the regular and seems to take a nose up stance to those that do. I've not noticed any difference in letting kratom sit throughout the day with any decrease in effects and I've taken it somewhat daily for almost a decade. Same doses for same benefit, but then again I'm not trying to nod out on the stuff. I most certainly can, I just prefer to be more functional throughout the day.