Anyone got experience with strong speed paste?

[babylonboy]

Yeah, both "normal" (or racemic) phet and enantiopure d-amphetamine ("dexedrine") can occur as either a free base, or as a sulfate salt, or as other salts, though this is uncommon illicitly.

My understanding is that the trend of selling speed as a paste emerged from chemists selling it straight from the cook (a general principle of cooking illegal drugs is to have the actual illegal drug in your possession for as little time as possible, not cooling on a windowsill like Mary Jane Rottencrotch's apple pie), still wet with solvent, and obviously if you bought some of this it would be strong as fuck, and so wet speed gained a reputation for quality.

 

[Shambles]

Amphetamine sulphate typically refers to a racemic mixture of levoamphetamine and dextroamphetamine. Dex is just the one isomer; dextroamphetamine.

Well I did not know that, Ponch. Thanks for the info

My understanding is that the trend of selling speed as a paste emerged from chemists selling it straight from the cook (a general principle of cooking illegal drugs is to have the actual illegal drug in your possession for as little time as possible, not cooling on a windowsill like Mary Jane Rottencrotch's apple pie), still wet with solvent, and obviously if you bought some of this it would be strong as fuck, and so wet speed gained a reputation for quality.

I remember the very first time I came across "base" paste. Nobody had seen such a thing before and it was incredibly hard to sell. Nobody wanted it cos it was "too strong". People actually asked for it to be cut. Which I never really understood - just take less surely

But yeah, for a brief period I could get oil, "base" or powder and the only one people wanted was powder cos it was what they were used to and didn't rip you a new one from even the tiniest of doses (compared with powder). And powder back then was pokey as fuck compared to the vast majority of speed these days. "Base" was just insanely strong. A gramme had you up for a week easily. And that was with tolerance cos I was a bit of a heavy user. Very bloody heavy user actually - virtually lived on the stuff.

 

[babylonboy]

Yeah the speed I get is obviously the sulfate, but is still much, much stronger than what most people expect. I mean, it actually tastes fucking horrible, rather than sweet! It actually makes you stay up for days! It actually has amphetamine in it! Hallelujah! I used to do a bit of speed when I was young, and you'd buy 8 grams for a score, which obviously wasn't the best, but this stuff is wondrous, I'd take it over MDMA any day of the week.

 

[Marmalade]

Amphetamine sulphate typically refers to a racemic mixture of levoamphetamine and dextroamphetamine. Dex is just the one isomer; dextroamphetamine.

levoamphetamine? hrmn, I'd personally question that. Levo is one of the 4 parts of the amphetamine mixes of Adderall, and converts in the stomach to provide an extended release, no?

I believe what I'm getting is what BB just described above. Sulphate, but strong.

and the previous lot before this last ounce I bought ... seemed exactly like this and was still leaking solvents from the bag, although that quickly evaporated. Beautifully strong though:

My understanding is that the trend of selling speed as a paste emerged from chemists selling it straight from the cook (a general principle of cooking illegal drugs is to have the actual illegal drug in your possession for as little time as possible, not cooling on a windowsill like Mary Jane Rottencrotch's apple pie), still wet with solvent, and obviously if you bought some of this it would be strong as fuck, and so wet speed gained a reputation for quality.

 

[Sammy G]

levoamphetamine? hrmn, I'd personally question that. Levo is one of the 4 parts of the mix of Adderall, and converts in the stomach to provide an extended release, no?

I believe what I'm getting is what BB just described above. Sulphate, but strong.

Your speed is most likely still racemic, 'strong' or otherwise. So levoamphetamine will therefore be present.

 

[babylonboy]

levo- and dextro- mean "left" and "right", respectively. The geometry of a carbon atom means that if it's bonded to 4 other atoms that are all different to each other, you have a pair of non-superimposable mirror images, like your left and right hand. These left- and right- handed versions of the molecule can have different properties, and with amphetamine, the levo- isomer is almost devoid of central activity. I don't really know why they include it in Adderall, perhaps there's some kind of synergy with the dextro-isomer, but at any rate, ponch's post is absolutely correct.

 

[Sammy G]

I don't really know why they include it in Adderall, perhaps there's some kind of synergy with the dextro-isomer, but at any rate, ponch's post is absolutely correct.

There's some speculation over that same question right here if you're ever really, really bored.

Sadly just speculation, however. Though there are some interesting points.

 

[Marmalade]

levo- and dextro- mean "left" and "right", respectively. The geometry of a carbon atom means that if it's bonded to 4 other atoms that are all different to each other, you have a pair of non-superimposable mirror images, like your left and right hand. These left- and right- handed versions of the molecule can have different properties, and with amphetamine, the levo- isomer is almost devoid of central activity. I don't really know why they include it in Adderall, perhaps there's some kind of synergy with the dextro-isomer, but at any rate, ponch's post is absolutely correct.

I remember reading about the left and right thing when I read up on adderall last time and it made no sense to me whatsoever, so I shall read up more on that.

And I think iirc it is because of the reaction or synergy with one of the other 3 inclusions, which meant it extended the release.

just looking for the link now

Dextroamphetamine (the dextrorotary enantiomer) and levoamphetamine (the levorotary enantiomer) have identical pharmacodynamics, but their binding affinities to their biomolecular targets vary.[29][62] Dextroamphetamine is a more potent agonist of TAAR1 than levoamphetamine.[62] Consequently, dextroamphetamine produces roughly three to four times more CNS stimulation than levoamphetamine;[29][62] however, levoamphetamine has slightly greater cardiovascular and peripheral effects.[29] Levoamphetamine provides Adderall with a quicker onset and longer-lasting effects than dextroamphetamine alone.[63

from adderall on wiki

and fucking LOL .... the Adderall wiki link has had a vast helping hand in being written by an interested party ... perhaps ... seriously, who wouldn't wanna take it after this?

Performance-enhancing

Therapeutic doses of psychostimulants, including amphetamine, improve performance on working memory tests both in normal functioning individuals and those with ADHD.[17] Moreover, these stimulants also increase arousal and, within the nucleus accumbens, improve task saliency.[17] Thus, stimulants improve performance on effortful and tedious tasks as well.[17] Consequently, amphetamine is used by some college and high-school students as a study and test-taking aid.[18] Based upon studies of self-reported illicit stimulant use among college students, performance-enhancing use, as opposed to abuse as a recreational drug, is the primary reason that students use stimulants.[19] In contrast, at doses much higher than those medically prescribed, stimulants can interfere with working memory and cognitive control.[17]

Amphetamine is also used by some professional, collegiate and high school athletes for its strong stimulant effects.[20][21] However, in competitive sports, this form of use is generally prohibited by anti-doping regulations.[20] At moderate therapeutic doses, amphetamine has been shown to increase physical strength,[20] acceleration,[20] stamina,[20][22] and endurance,[20][22] while reducing reaction time.[20] Like methylphenidate and bupropion, amphetamine increases stamina and endurance in humans primarily through reuptake inhibition and effluxion of dopamine in the central nervous system.[22] Similar to cognition enhancement, very high amphetamine doses can induce side effects that impair athletic performance, such as rhabdomyolysis and hyperthermia

 

[Shambles]

I've heard tales of people trying to get high on levoamphetamine. Doesn't sound like much fun to me but it is active. I don't think they sell it here but there's something (I think a cold medication but may well be mistaken) that contains levo. Sounds like nasty stuff to me. I'd be pretty sure the vast majority of street speed is gonna be racemic unless you have a very perfectionist chemist selling direct or summat.

Are any street drugs sold as isomers? I know ketamine (S-ket ftw ) is occasionally but not aware of any others.

 

[Sammy G]

There was Dutch 'dexamphetamine' doing the rounds a while back. Though ironically it turned out to be somewhat contaminated. :D

I've only had pharm dexamphetamine once to compare it to, but it certainly felt smoother than racemic street speed. That may possibly have been the meth, however.

Other than that, ket's the only one I can think of too.

 

[Marmalade]

I've heard tales of people trying to get high on levoamphetamine. Doesn't sound like much fun to me but it is active. I don't think they sell it here but there's something (I think a cold medication but may well be mistaken) that contains levo. Sounds like nasty stuff to me. I'd be pretty sure the vast majority of street speed is gonna be racemic unless you have a very perfectionist chemist selling direct or summat.

sounds like a chore. and ephedrine would probably be easier

Consequently, dextroamphetamine produces roughly three to four times more CNS stimulation than levoamphetamine;[29][62] however, levoamphetamine has slightly greater cardiovascular and peripheral effects.

I've often had an ECA stack when dieting and I've had no speed (jittery as fuck but it does help). Wouldn't take it recreationally though.

 

[ColtDan]

ooooooooo i would love some speed now

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

levo- and dextro- mean "left" and "right", respectively. The geometry of a carbon atom means that if it's bonded to 4 other atoms that are all different to each other, you have a pair of non-superimposable mirror images, like your left and right hand. These left- and right- handed versions of the molecule can have different properties, and with amphetamine, the levo- isomer is almost devoid of central activity. I don't really know why they include it in Adderall, perhaps there's some kind of synergy with the dextro-isomer, but at any rate, ponch's post is absolutely correct.

Similarly, with methamphetamine, its actually the dextro isomer that gets you high and the laevo just clears a stuffy nose. Back in the 90's there was a tek doing the rounds on the internet about how to get methamphetamine from Vicks inhalers, because in the USA Vicks inhalers actually contain leavo-methamphetamine under a pseudonym. Unfortunately, although the tek had a solid basis in fact, the end product was garbage because there is no way of converting the laevo to the dextro. I'm sure this tek is still available if you look hard enough (there was also one for extracting LSD from Fosters beer - though this was total bollox!)

Incidentally, I much prefer good racemic street phet than pharma dex, because it makes you feel like you're actually on a drug. I once IV'd some pharma methamphetamine and was extremely disappointed because it felt too 'clean & natural' - if that makes sense

 

[babylonboy]

Are any street drugs sold as isomers? I know ketamine (S-ket ftw ) is occasionally but not aware of any others.

Excellent question! Are we all ready for some solidly off-topic chemicology?

So, some drugs are sold as the racemate. Usually speed is, MDMA is, K is, if the stereoisomers are both active, or one is inactive, sure, why not. Similarly, DOx drugs have stereoisomers (didn't you yourself, shammy, once have a sample of R-DOC? That you spilled on your floor? Or am I imagining things?), but are usually just consumed as a racemate. Some drugs don't have a chiral carbon (PCP, GHB, 2Cs, mescaline, most tryptamines), so there is no stereoisomerism. There are some drugs sold only as one isomer, though.

Crystal meth is pure d-methamphetamine, though; d,l-meth (racemic meth) also exists, but it doesn't form the big shards that are so emblematic. DXM is dextromethorphan, a dull dissociative for desperate American teens; levomethorphan is a potent full opioid agonist, one of the most striking differences in effect between a pair of stereoisomers. 4-MAR exists as 4 stereoisomers, of which only two are active, and they the ones that are sold. LSD also theoretically has 4 stereoisomers, only one of which is active, and when acid degrades, it is usually because it is converting to one of the inactive isomers. Morphine has 5 stereocentres (different name for a chiral carbon), so 10 stereoiosomers, but luckily a plant does the hard work for us. Likewise, cocaine has 4 chiral carbons, and thus 8 stereoisomers, and this complexity is one of the reasons morphine and cocaine are rarely, if ever, synthesised.

Anyone still awake? Any more questions?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Crystal meth is pure d-methamphetamine, though; d,l-meth (racemic meth) also exists, but it doesn't form the big shards that are so emblematic.

Wasn't the old 'biker crank' or 'nazi meth' usually a racemic mixture when P2P was the standard precursor?

 

[babylonboy]

^Exactly right, from P2P you create the stereocentre when you react with methylamine, so naturally the product is a racemate. When P2P was banned in the 80s, people turned to other routes, the most popular being the now-ubiquitous reduction of ephedrine/pseudoephedrine. These compounds are already enantiopure, so reducing them forms an enantipure product, S-methamphetamine (actually, they have two stereocentres, one at the alpha carbon, one at the beta carbon, and the direction in which the oxygen atom is bonded to the beta carbon is what makes ephedrine and pseudoephedrine different compounds. Of course, when you reduce them to meth, you get rid of both the oxygen atom and the stereocentre, so it doesn't matter which is used. This is also a similar case to l-meth and d-meth, in that ephedrine is a CNS stimulant, but pseudoephedrine is only active peripherally). Anyway, this is my big beef with Breaking Bad- the way they do it, you wouldn't end up with the best meth ever, nor with huge crystals. Ah, well, something tells me it was mostly aimed at people who don't know quite so much about methamphetamine chemistry as I do. Also, as an aside, "biker meth" refers to old skool racemic meth derived from P2P, but "Nazi meth" actually refers to d-meth made by one particular method of ephedrine reduction, the one that uses sodium/lithium in ammonia as a reducing agent that is popular in the Midwestern United States, rather than the RI/P method most often used further West.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

^Exactly right, from P2P you create the stereocentre when you react with methylamine, so naturally the product is a racemate. When P2P was banned in the 80s, people turned to other routes, the most popular being the now-ubiquitous reduction of ephedrine/pseudoephedrine. These compounds are already enantiopure, so reducing them forms an enantipure product, S-methamphetamine (actually, they have two stereocentres, one at the alpha carbon, one at the beta carbon, and the direction in which the oxygen atom is bonded to the beta carbon is what makes ephedrine and pseudoephedrine different compounds. Of course, when you reduce them to meth, you get rid of both the oxygen atom and the stereocentre, so it doesn't matter which is used. This is also a similar case to l-meth and d-meth, in that ephedrine is a CNS stimulant, but pseudoephedrine is only active peripherally). Anyway, this is my big beef with Breaking Bad- the way they do it, you wouldn't end up with the best meth ever, nor with huge crystals. Ah, well, something tells me it was mostly aimed at people who don't know quite so much about methamphetamine chemistry as I do. Also, as an aside, "biker meth" refers to old skool racemic meth derived from P2P, but "Nazi meth" actually refers to d-meth made by one particular method of ephedrine reduction, the one that uses sodium/lithium in ammonia as a reducing agent that is popular in the Midwestern United States, rather than the RI/P method most often used further West.

Yeh, I'm just watching the whole Breaking Bad series at the moment, and I thought exactly the same when they started using methylamine as opposed to pseudo! But I didn't realise that 'Biker' and 'Nazi' meth used different synths, so thanks for that, very informative

 

[Shambles]

sounds like a chore. and ephedrine would probably be easier

FUBAR is on it. It was levo-methampetamine I was thinking of. Apparently folk just munched it straight from the inhaler. Sounds ropey as fuck to do and the effects sounded nasty too. People just see the "methamphetamine" bit and dive in. Never heard of UK peeps trying anything like that but I don't think our version of Vick's has the same ingredients. There's summat vaguely (but not really) similar with Nytol - in the US it's one chemical in the UK another. In the UK it's diphenhydramine which is a delirient whilst the US version (can't recall the drug - Google is the friend of any who wish to look) apparently has some kinda recreational value. Or at least isn't a delirient.

DOx drugs have stereoisomers (didn't you yourself, shammy, once have a sample of R-DOC?

DOM actually. Don't recall the isomer but the more potent one. Still can't believe it ended up in a puddle of bongwater cos I ain't likely to get a chance of sampling that again

That aside, thanks for the info - I understood every word, obviously :D

I don't know the ins and outs and technicalities of such things but is handy to have an idea about such things - if only for purely interest's sake

In BB news - Is the Science of Breaking Bad Fact or Fiction?

 

[babylonboy]

Actually, separating the enantiomers of DOM, or any other amphetamine, isn't that difficult, you can do it with tartaric acid, should be within the grasp of the kitchen chemist (i.e. you or I).

You know, my narcissism is such that when I saw "BB" in your post, I thought it stood for "babylonboy".

thanks for that, very informative

You are very welcome, young/old sir/madam

 

[Marmalade]

Excellent question! Are we all ready for some solidly off-topic chemicology?

So, some drugs are sold as the racemate. Usually speed is, MDMA is, K is, if the stereoisomers are both active, or one is inactive, sure, why not. Similarly, DOx drugs have stereoisomers (didn't you yourself, shammy, once have a sample of R-DOC? That you spilled on your floor? Or am I imagining things?), but are usually just consumed as a racemate. Some drugs don't have a chiral carbon (PCP, GHB, 2Cs, mescaline, most tryptamines), so there is no stereoisomerism. There are some drugs sold only as one isomer, though.

Crystal meth is pure d-methamphetamine, though; d,l-meth (racemic meth) also exists, but it doesn't form the big shards that are so emblematic. DXM is dextromethorphan, a dull dissociative for desperate American teens; levomethorphan is a potent full opioid agonist, one of the most striking differences in effect between a pair of stereoisomers. 4-MAR exists as 4 stereoisomers, of which only two are active, and they the ones that are sold. LSD also theoretically has 4 stereoisomers, only one of which is active, and when acid degrades, it is usually because it is converting to one of the inactive isomers. Morphine has 5 stereocentres (different name for a chiral carbon), so 10 stereoiosomers, but luckily a plant does the hard work for us. Likewise, cocaine has 4 chiral carbons, and thus 8 stereoisomers, and this complexity is one of the reasons morphine and cocaine are rarely, if ever, synthesised.

Anyone still awake? Any more questions?

'kin 'ell BB.

Dumb it down for this pleb a bit could ya?

Eh, I tried meth recently. Not recreationally really, more to see how it compared to speed as an appetite suppressant and mood elevator.

I found that 70mg bombed lasted all day, and had a kind of slow release action, which I wasn't expecting. It peaked after 3-4 hrs, and I felt it till late afternoon/tea time, and it didn't affect me being able to get to sleep at all.

WAY too expensive compared to speed tho, only purchased to try. I've saved some to sample for a one off recreational dose, but I wouldn't buy again.