Most effective PCT

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Greenlighter
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
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I'm just finishing up my 3rd cycle. It is 500mg of test c for 15 weeks. The last few times my pct consisted of 100mg clomid 2 weeks then 50mg 2 more weeks, as well as novladex 40mg 2 weeks and down to 20mg next 2 weeks. I'm considering other options, that are perhaps more effective as pct. I want somthing that will get my natural test levels up to more normal levels as fast as possible. Usually my motivation at works slows down after a cycle for a month or so, and I want to get myself to normal as quick as I safely can. What are some more effective pct options? Any info or input would be much appreciated.

I'm 25, 6'2" 190lbs and 10%bf
 
The Nolva/Clomid combo PCT that you have just described is the norm for PCT and used by many, allthough often people run just one of the two aswell. Different people will debate that nolva is more effective than clomid and vice versa, but I personally believe a clomid only PCT will kickstart your HPTA better than running nolva alone and won't reduce IGF-1 levels (nolva does this) which is really something you don't want during PCT. I have run a clomid only PCT after a 12 week test e cycle at 250mg/week and recovered fine.

Some people run aromasin/exemestane during PCT aswell, which is an AI, and claim it helps. Using adex or letro in PCT is generally something you dont want to do as comming off those you will experience a rebound of estrogen, something that aromasin will not do due to it being an irreversible or "suicide" type aromatase inhibitor.

Another option is Toremifene which is also a SERM like Nolva and Clomid and from what I have read is superior to both nolva and clomid combined at restoring the HPTA. I personally have never used it. It is also a fairly new chem and I don't see it used very often.

However the option that I and anyone else who knows what they are talking about, would reccomend is the use of HCG on cycle to maintain testicular function/size so that when you start PCT you testicles are functioning already and it speeds up the recovery process. Again it is not neccesary, but if you are after what you asked for, HCG is your answer.

Do not make the mistake of using HCG during PCT as it will shut you down in itself and is why it is used LEADING up to PCT to maintain tesituclar function. Have you already started your PCT btw?

To summarise, use HCG on cycle and a Nolva/Clomid PCT and you should be sweet.
 
It will be started in a week, i assume it's too late for the hcg?

Don't waste your money...

As for hCG, I don't understand why anyone would want to create another level of suppression in their HPTA? There is really no use for hCG, it desensitizes leydig cells in your testes to Leutinizing hormone so that when you eventually cease using hCG it takes a while for your testes to become sensitive to your own body's natural LH, thus prolonging your recovery. The use of hCG in males is limited to increasing fertility in HRT such that guys have enough viable sperm for their partners to conceive. When you are "shut down" your testes actually become more sensitive to LH due to receptor up-regulation. All that hCG will do is prolong your recovery.

Enclomiphene citrate increased testosterone and sperm counts. Concomitant changes in LH and FSH suggest normalization of endogenous testosterone production and restoration of sperm counts through the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23530575

Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830


Triptorelin depot stimulation test for central precocious puberty.
Strich D, Kvatinsky N, Hirsch HJ, Gillis D.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Acute gonadotropin responses following depot leuprolide acetate injection are useful for monitoring therapeutic efficacy in central precocious puberty. Similar monitoring of therapy in patients treated with another widely used GnRH agonist, depot triptorelin, has not yet been reported.
OBJECTIVE:
The objective of this study was to test the use of gonadotropin levels after therapeutic injections of depot triptorelin for evaluating efficacy of therapy.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Thirty-two patients (29 girls and three boys) were treated with triptorelin depot, 3.75 mg per vial, between 2006 and 2010. Treatment was initiated at 8.27±1.76 years (range, 4.6-11.6 years). Blood was drawn before and at variable times between 30 min and 2 h after injections. Clinical tests were retrospectively collected. Results: After the first injection, the 60-min mean luteinizing hormone (LH) level was 21.6.1±18.0 IU/L and the follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) was 13.5±3.6 IU/L. After subsequent injections, for those who showed clinical suppression, the standard deviations above the mean were 3.6 IU/L for FSH and 2.1 IU/L for LH. The LH levels of two patients who did not suppress sufficiently were at these limits or higher.
CONCLUSIONS:
Sixty-minute postinjection depot triptorelin levels of LH can be successfully used to evaluate the efficacy of treatment with this agent. Limits for suppressed levels have been determined.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23425599
 
Indeed/ HCG is a waste. The only thing it's useful for is if you have been blasting and cruising for a year or more or happen to be on TRT decide one day you want to have a child and need to get the wife pregnant. That's all it's good for.
 
Its funny, you'll find on steroid.com a nice sticky from a "veteran" about beginner cycles stating you should run hcg for the entirety of your cycle. lol.
 
Its funny, you'll find on steroid.com a nice sticky from a "veteran" about beginner cycles stating you should run hcg for the entirety of your cycle. lol.

Old school thought.... or product pushing....!!!!

The majority of medical literature coming out now contradicts much of the older thinking regards hCG....
 
Makes you wonder if the sticky is old or they never update the info therein.
 
I'm just finishing up my 3rd cycle. It is 500mg of test c for 15 weeks. The last few times my pct consisted of 100mg clomid 2 weeks then 50mg 2 more weeks, as well as novladex 40mg 2 weeks and down to 20mg next 2 weeks. I'm considering other options, that are perhaps more effective as pct. I want somthing that will get my natural test levels up to more normal levels as fast as possible. Usually my motivation at works slows down after a cycle for a month or so, and I want to get myself to normal as quick as I safely can. What are some more effective pct options? Any info or input would be much appreciated.

I'm 25, 6'2" 190lbs and 10%bf

Studys on Clomid use as little as 25mg..... 100mg is overkill with Clomid considering the side effects it can have on some people.... 50mg is fine combined with 20mg Nolvadex.. I'd even be inclined to taper off both... 50-25mg.. 20-10mg....
 
Makes you wonder if the sticky is old or they never update the info therein.

Relatively new actually.. apparently using hcg in pct, or in the weeks leading up to pct is the old school method. :\

Old school thought.... or product pushing....!!!!

The majority of medical literature coming out now contradicts much of the older thinking regards hCG....

Studys on Clomid use as little as 25mg..... 100mg is overkill with Clomid considering the side effects it can have on some people.... 50mg is fine combined with 20mg Nolvadex.. I'd even be inclined to taper off both... 50-25mg.. 20-10mg....

Well, given that HCG is still a prescription drug I cant see it as product pushing.. Its funny theres a line in the thread which says something to the effect of "dont take hcg in the weeks leading to your PCT that will only shut you down further, this is an old idea pushed by guys like rich piana- bad rich piana!" So then why would we take it alongside our entire cycle to ensure we're super shutdown then? hmm.

If you don't look into studies the brotheories do sound pretty, uh, sound.. but yeah things unravel when you really get into it. One thing that complicates my own personal research is the fact that most studies I can't get access to the full text and have to rely on the abstract, which can often be misleading as I'm sure you're aware.

I've seen studies showing that higher doses of clomid show a rise but after two weeks actually have an inhibitory effect on LH and test iirc, smaller doses show steady gradual rise. I know some people feel the clomid nolva combo works best, I know some swear by clomid only and drawing the pct out to 6-8 weeks, possibly tapering to a low nolva dose.. Personally I have no experience yet, but Im lubricating myself with the facts at the moment as best I can anyway :)

Seriously.. there is SO much misinformation and product pushing on every major fitness board and every major steroid board its no wonder people fuck themselves up.. and you get "veterans" who have done a lot of cycles and managed okay who take their anecdotes as supreme to science and what have you.. bah.
 
Misinformation is only the start mate, you have to add in decades of purposefully pushed dis-information by the medical community, media and various government agencies on top of guys like that veteran that push their particular blend of broscience. I find that a tad sad, to be honest.
 
Well I personally wouldn't use it for a typical test only cycle like yours OP.

I know in my previous post that I mentioned you could use HCG on a test cycle to maintain testicular function/size but it is not necessary and me personally I wouldn't use HCG unless as Guido mentioned I was blasting/cruising.

Also I am not sure how HCG use on a cycle to maintain testicular function could be of any harm in terms of shutting you down anymore... Your either shut-down or your not on... Whenever I am on my bloods come back with LH/FSH of 0... I don't see how you could be any more shutdown than that.

But Genetic Freak, I agree with you about letting your leydig cells sensitise to LH on cycle if you dont use HCG so that when you PCT they are more responsive.
 
Its funny, you'll find on steroid.com a nice sticky from a "veteran" about beginner cycles stating you should run hcg for the entirety of your cycle. lol.

Steroid.com contains a lot of misinformation.

The best site for information for guys like you will be coming in early 2014. It's the public gh15 forum. It will be run by experienced bodybuilders from the private website gh15.org.
 
Well, given that HCG is still a prescription drug I cant see it as product pushing..

hCG is prescription for women undergoing assisted reproductive techniques, such as in vitro fertilization (IVF)...

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Consumers/cmi/o/ovidrelsyringe.pdf

hCG has been used to initiate testosterone synthesis in males via LH, I don't believe it has the same efficacy on FSH for spermatogenesis....

In men with partial or previously treated gonadotropin deficiency, or in men with postpubertal hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, hCG treatment alone may be sufficient to stimulate spermatogenesis and fertility. In most men with prepubertal hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, however, combined treatment with hCG plus hMG is needed to initiate sperm production and fertility. Pulsatile GnRH therapy may be used to stimulate testosterone production and spermatogenesis in men with secondary hypogonadism who have hypothalamic defects, such as idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism or Kallmann's syndrome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7705324

There is a reason Bro-scientists don't conclude the same as Molecular biologists, Med-school post-grads, or Pharmacologists....
 
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For me ( I blast and cruise) I will use HCG just to keep my testicular size up. For me it is super noticeable with one prosthetic. But I digress.
 
Steroid.com contains a lot of misinformation.

The best site for information for guys like you will be coming in early 2014. It's the public gh15 forum. It will be run by experienced bodybuilders from the private website gh15.org.

:cool:

I'm all for private websites. But the term experienced bodybuilder doesn't give me supreme confidence that they know exactly what they're doing. Bostin Loyd won the contra costa and is "experienced" now but I wouldn't follow a single piece of advice from him.

I actually joined another private website recently - best thing I ever did.
 
Bostin Loyd is a great guy. He just uses alot of fake stuff. Even if he messed his arm up, I still respect him. He obviously knows what he's doing...
 
Just because someone used a massive amount of steroids and got huge and looked good doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Dude is 21 and already cruising, he's got HRT4LYFE written all over him.
I've heard the notion that with all the gear he was taking he should have gotten even bigger, but I think he more than likely was lacking in other areas than getting fake shit. With all the time he spent injecting himself with stuff (to the point he ran out of injection sites at one point), I'm surprised he even had time to eat proper.

He did what he had to do, he went balls out to the wall to accomplish what he did and he deserves respect for that, but at the same time that doesn't mean he didn't do any damage to himself. I mean in his post contest videos hes a massive tub of lard and can barely breathe, seems healthy to me.
 
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^ I'd have to go with you on that. He did not go about it in the right way at all. There are ways to go about it to maximize your gains and minimize the amount of gear. He should have been in way better shape with all the shit he was taking. But lets be honest diet and dedication are more then half the game, then its training and genetics, lastly its gear. The gear is the icing on the cake, you can put icing on to make an already awesome cake better or you can put great icing on a shit sandwich, the point being once you look past the icing you are either left with an awesome cake or a shit sandwich.
 
He did what he had to do to win. He could have won with less roids I agree. But all pros value their shape more than their health. You can't win any major show while being healthy. Competitive bodybuilding isn't healthy, natural or enhanced. Anyway I'm not trying to argue with you guys.
 
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