Right there with ya, Blue.
Right there with ya, Blue.
So can we sum this conversation up as people who like to believe things they're told on one side of the debate and people who rely on facts and evidence on the other?
If so, which side is likely to be right?
No, this is more like an argument between someone who actually had almost unlimited access to LSD in their lifetime and a bunch of people who've probably seen it a handul of times, if at all!!
whatever, I'm done wih this...
What did all that LSD teach you blue? Tolerance, humour, empathy?
It doesn't sound like it taught you much humility.
^I don't claim to be some LSD guru...I took a fair amount of it, but mostly I sold it...
I provided the evidence that only LSD and its isomers can be present, read a page back over again, there is lots of actual data for you to digest. Unfortunately it is against the rules to post synthesis or I would show you step-by-step the process. Yes, we've studied LSD. I can't speak for the others participating in this thread but I do work in the field of organic chemistry. Dealing sheets or even pages only gives you subjective knowledge. I will not speak for my involvement with LSD besides what I post in the "Acid in America" thread found HERE. Your senseless attacks because you are cornered by logic is ungrounded. No one even dissed the Dead scene. Personally, I would not be in existence if the Dead weren't still touring in the '80s.
What exactly is the logic I've been presented with here?
I'm supposed to believe that all LSD, regardless of how it's sold, who it's sold by or how it's made is all the same?!
I'm sorry, I just don't think that's true....I'm willing to believe that in most cases the differences are probably due to potency, but I've seen shit that pretty much made everyone sick, maybe it wasn't LSD at all...I don't know, but what exactly are we disagreeing about here? I'm not really sure...
These days, where there's several different drugs being sold on blotter paper....with that going on, I don't see how someone's "scientific" explanation of LSD basically boils down to, "It's all the same!"
I don't care anymore, I don't sell LSD or have any involvement with it....I took some "acid" that someone gave me a little over a year ago and it definitely wasn't LSD, but it didn't have that "dirty" feeling either...
If you honestly think that everyone who's ever had "dirty LSD" is wrong, fine....I've seen variations in a lot of the street drugs I've done that everyone else who used it noticed too, I guess all drugs all pure and everything else is all in my head...I'll keep that in mind...
You're not getting the point.
There is no such thing as "dirty" LSD because if it is LSD, it is LSD.
What logic would dictate that using a different synthesis to make LSD would lead to a different end result? If it did then its no longer LSD and that's an entirely different subject as it is no longer and LSD synthesis is it? The only thing that has been refuted is the assertion that "dirty" LSD exists. LSD is LSD is LSD. Anything that is not LSD is not LSD. Any effects that you get from LSD are a result of LSD's vast spectrum of activity in the human body. What is so hard to understand about that?
EDIT: Maybe this image will help you understand why LSD has so many effects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LSDaffinities.GIF
Anything below the horizontal line in the image has a binding affinity high enough that it is believed to be involved with LSD's effects. That's a very wide range of receptor affinities.
Nausea? Numerous 5-HT receptors are involved in that and LSD hits most of them: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10490049
Last edited by MagickalKat777; 12-11-2013 at 20:42.
I've never had needlepoint but I have had some white fluff and I can say if it's made purely it only takes one hit to elevate. Where as I was taking three hits with some random lsd to get the same feeling.
The reason other drugs but LSD can be cut and made impure is the fact their dosage is so much higher than LSD. MDMA for instance is active in tens of miligrams whereas LSD is only active in the tens of micrograms. Many many substances are active in similar ranges as MDMA, cocaine, heroin, meth, etc., making them much easier to add other drugs and inert substances to for increased profit or specific effects. Likely what you were selling in the 90s was LSD just at varying dosages. It wasn't until recently (NBOMes, NBOHs, NBFs, NBMD, etc.) that man has discovered chemicals that could fit on blotter in the dosages required (2mg and under.) As far as I'm aware DOM has been around for quite a while but in the 70s was referred to as "STP" more often than being passed off as LSD.
The fact that whatever you took that wasn't LSD felt cleaner also discredits you as all substances to date on blotter but LSD have been proven to have a worse safety profile. AL-LAD and LSZ may be the same but you didn't run across those a year ago, more likely an NBOMe which has killed people at dosages as low as 2mg and known to cause brain swelling.
Looky here now, if the chemist says three "Hail Jerry Garcias" while he's making the LSD it becomes fluff, otherwise it's just ordinary LSD.
LSD is an arrangment of atoms. It's impossible to create "dirty LSD". The atoms are either arranged in the correct lattice structure for LSD or they arn't, in which case it isn't LSD. The idea that there's some mysterious "dirty LSD" that is active at the same dosage as LSD but "makes you feel dirty" is complete horseshit. LSD has a vast range of effects and fluff AND needlepoint can give you "dirty" physical side effects just as much as cheap blotter.
I've seen variations in a lot of the street drugs I've done that everyone else who used it noticed too
Hold it blue - I explained this to you once before. YES your theory sort of works with powdered drugs like cocaine and heroin - because you can replace a handful of coke with a handful of laxative that's going to massively effect your experience. Snorting half a gram of laxative is definately going to make you feel dirty..and shitty too. LSD isn't like that - you can't "add" impurities to blotter. It's either LSD -in which case you feel it or you don't. Until a couple of years ago there was no other impurity active at blotter dose.
Last edited by Ismene; 12-11-2013 at 21:53.
I really have no explanation for it....but I can see why people have speculated strychnine...
I'm really curious the context in which some of you guys have used LSD....It really used to that there was just a bunch of it floating around, a bunch of different kinds that you'd come across...and there were definite differences....I don't know why....most of it was probably just LSD in varying amounts, but there was stuff that came with unpleasant side effects...If you don't believe that, I really don't know what to tell you....
Just to try and imagine something beside black or white, "LSD is LSD" vs "there is dirty acid".
Acid chemistery is not the easeast.
Imagine i'am not a skilled chemist.
I buy ergotamine, or LSA or whatever lysergic precursor.
I'm a bad chemist, i only get 10% LSD as a result.
So what to do, trash it ?
No, if i whant 100mcg blotter, i just lay them with 1 mg powder.
Result is as strong than 100mcg pur stuff blotter, but there is 900 mcg LSA or whatever in it.
It's enough to make the blotter have a distinc tast, ad to add a little more bodyload ( I suppose that 1 mg LSA give some little nausea and vasonstriction).
This is actually a discussion that's been argued on this and many other internet forums many times over the years...and I swore I'd never get involved in it again...
These days more than ever, you can't be sure that you're getting is what it's being represented as...
If the idea of there being different types of LSD crystal of varying levels of quality is just a bullshit urban legend, whoever dreamed it up sure fooled a lot of people, not just a couple kids who happened to score a ten strip....
People who were actually laying the blotter paid higher prices for "fluff", when fluff wasn't available they bought other, cheaper crystal and people like me subsequently got a price break as well....
This would mean that, the people perpetrating this fraudulent claim of there being different kinds of LSD crystal were the high level distributors themselves, which the only explanation I can come up with for this....maybe they wanted everyone in the whole scene to believe the LSD was coming from several different sources instead of just a few....
As far as the different media that the LSD was put on for distribution, historically that's been the only means people have had to identify if what they were getting was any good...If 12 different people tell you that the "blue pokemons" were good, well...it's a good indicator that the LSD with that print probably is good...
Assumptions about LSD based on the chemistry behind LSD absent any practical, empirical knowledge in the real world rings hollow to me...Nobody 20 years ago would have believed the RC on blotter thing that's happening now was real...
If some kid told you that someone gave them a hit of acid that lasted 18 hours with intense visuals but felt completely different from LSD and they were sure it was something different 20 years ago, they would have been laughed at and dismissed as having an overactive imagination, or called a liar...
With that, I am done with this discussion, don't leave the thread open on account of me....
I am on the fence about the whole LSD debate now days.
I did a lot of LSD in the 90s and hung out around hippies where multiple varieties of LSD were always around.
Most of the LSD floating around back then was on paper. Many people had their own prints and paper and would try to control them so they would have a reputation. Much of the paper was given to people that purchased a gram of crystal or kept by people laying crystal. Paper was harder to get in the days before the internet, it usually hard for people to counterfeit it in a short period of time.
Their were some big players especially on dead tour and you would see the same paper all over the country and it would be pretty consistent. The next season they would change prints and the new paper would be all over again, spreading like wildfire as dead tour went from town to town.
Back in those days the standard paper(the latest prints to flood the market) was usually pretty good and constant. There would also be a small verity of other papers, vials, tooth picks, or what ever LSD could be put on going around, some were good some were not as good but it was usually all LSD just weaker or stronger.
Certain “batches” of LSD did seem to give people common poor experiences, dim visuals headaches, sore muscles, hangovers. Was it all imaginary ?
The only time I had a poor experience was from Black Gels and some stuff on green paper which a lot of other people also did and most came to the conclusion they were poor after they were floating around for a couple of weeks.
I used to get sheets put them in the freezer and get pretty constant trips from them. I did LSD a lot and would usually get the same smell, feel, taste(the taste of tripping not ingestion) and colors from it. The couple of poor experiences I had the visuals, taste and feel were different.
I haven't done LSD for more then 10 years so I really can't say anymore. Doing some pure compounds and researching substances on the internet has put me into the solid belief that a chemical is a chemical. But I also believe that impurities can alter chemical experiences. The impurities in LSD are small and some claim they have no effect but how deep has this been explored and studied? Too many people on the internet copy paste this and that and claim it pwns all.
Were thousands of people with common experiences all delusional ? Were people that had long intimate experience with LSD just hypnotized by the paper and the weather ?
I would like to revisit LSD now that I am older with more years of mind altering connoisseur experience but the days of decent LSD floating around my area are over. So I just don't have a set belief at this point..
The impurities have been studied. This isn't cut and paste science... it's the facts. Shulgin for instance writes in TiKHAL:
Nichols did further research into this subject with rats and is published academically somewhere. lumi-LSD appears as a result of light degradation typically. Inactive.d-iso-LSD shows no psychological changes at an oral dose of 4 milligrams; l-LSD none at up to 10 milligrams orally; and l-iso-LSD none at 500 micrograms orally.
Don't know what more needs to be said on the subject. You either believe the scientists who made their living working with LSD or you don't.
One thing I notice is lower dosages of LSD tend to give me more pronounced body load than higher dosages. I hypothesize this is what causes people with "dirty" acid (aka lower dose LSD) to have more body effects and therefore think it is a result of impurities.
Have people tested every single impurity that can be produced in a batch of LSD ? And how many people have tested this ? one guy ? One web page ?
Or just as far as you have seen on the Internet ?
Like I said -
I know there's people on BL, maybe some people in this thread who have a working knowledge of chemistry nd have maybe synthed a few different drugs themselves, but I get the feeling it's mostly upstart self-taught 18 year olds that I end up arguing with on here....
If you've never made or tested LSD yourself, what do you fucking know? Just because you think something's not possible based on what you've read, doesn't mean that there's no validity to it...
the grateful Dead was basically a travelling LSD party that lasted for 30 years...The biggest community of psychedelic users in modern history....
If one person on this thread came forward and said...oh IDK...I raved for several years and have sampled multiple batches of LSD and I think it's all the same, and you've read up on the science, I'd have a little more respect for what you're saying....
but this whole argument is analgous to someone who's studied the dynamics of how a curveball works arguing with a major league pitcher....
It's been well known for years that "Ecstasy" could contain a whole laundry list of different active chemicals in addition to MDMA or MDA....People on here like to talk all the time about how improperly made heroin has left over morphine and other things in it that may responsible for the subjective differences in experience between batches...
People just become so derisive and angry when anyone mentions dirty acid...and like I said, if one person, with the exception of Ismene, who I know was using LSD before I was born, came forward and actually revealed that they had extensive experience with LSD in real life and thought it was all the same, I'd have no problem with...reading TIKHAL or fucking PIKHAL or whatever else does not make you an expert on psychedelic drugs...
I also love it how everyone seems to be saying that it's possible that there's variations in OTHER drugs, but its simply not possible with LSD...because we're talking about micrograms, and there's no by-product of LSD synthesis that produces anything active in large enough amounts to account for "dirty acid"...
We're talking about clandestine manufacture of LSD by people using whatever they could get their hands on, using improvised lab equipment...not Alexander Shulgin
Also, you can absorb a lot on blotter paper....
I am telling you as an organic chemist with a decent (although could be better) understanding in chemical reactions, purification is vital at every step of LSD synthesis so as not to end up with a bullshit inseparable polymer that may or may not be toxic. The likelihood of anything other than LSD and iso-LSD making an appearance at synthesis is extremely unlikely. This is based on every synthesis of LSD clandestine and legitimate that I've seen published as well as a few other routes devised hypothetically by yours truly. The effects of iso-LSD, while not vastly explored, are at this point confirmed to have no effects at all at dosages as high as 4 milligrams, over 200x the threshold dose of LSD. Truly I would go step-by-step and point out to you what can and can not happen in an LSD synthesis but this would be against the Bluelight guidelines (no discussion of synthesis.) If anyone can think of a byproduct other than iso-LSD that appears at synthesis or any other decomposition products than the ones known, than this discussion could prove useful.
Blue since you like to rely on appeal to authority, just look at my username LSD Cruiser. I have vast experience with tripping on LSD in liquid, blotter, microdot, etc... I've used my academic status to send in more samples of LSD for GC/MS analysis than I can count. I've read even more.....Never found anything that can't be called LSD as a result.
^Okay then, thank you! I don't know how to account for "dirty acid" then...other than to say maybe some of it wasn't LSD at all, or the weakness of it made it seem to have unpleasant side effects...
I don't have much LSD use so I can't comment, but I have experienced differences with the same batch of substance with different chems like 2c-i and even marijuana which is probably sounds absolutely ridiculous to some people. I've done 2c-i at 20mg a few times in the same fashion and sometimes Ive been super nauseous and puked and other times I didnt really feel even a twinge.
Ive been reading the thread but no one has really summed it up like this: with the dose range for lsd, there aren't really any other possible toxins at such a low dose that would possibly have any effect that you would actually notice unless the shit just wasnt lsd at all, and then you're guess is as good as mine. I think the idea that someone would purposely contaminate a dose of lsd after the fact, if they could find something toxic that fit on a blotter that small, is pretty dumb, and as im sure you know, would be bad for business.
The power of the brain is unbelievable.. in alexander shulgins book pihkal he mentions a time when he was in the army overseas and something happened and he was given a cup of liquid and told it was an anesthetic. he drank it, and had whatever minor surgery he needs (I completely forget what the exact cirumstance was), and felt no pain, and then after the fact it was revealed to him that he had just drank sugar water, there was no anesthetic.. I honestly find this impossible to wrap my head around, but there are crazier stories about the mind playing tricks on people so you just gotta keep an open mind.
I'm glad you've begun to open up to what people are saying and realize that no one was "talking shit" to you or trying to diss your experiences.. we're all here to learn and hopefully to educate others where we can, and you'll never learn anything if you're never open to at least hear someone out