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Permanent damage from psychedelics

That is how LSD is described in a lot of the literature, experiencing a brief mental disorder without impaired sensorium at low doses.

A substance is toxic if a small quantity kills you.

Very well, based on your personal experience, there is no reason to predict an anxiety reaction to psychedelics from an anxiety reaction to marijuana. I am glad you decided to share.

The only evidence I had was that marijuana causes a relapse of psychedelic trauma for those who had suffered psychological disorders from hallucinogens. This includes anxiety. Also, that marijuana is a mild hallucinogen. There must be some connection, but it is possible this does not go on in reverse order.

Would you define 'set' for me please?
 
First of all, I agree that for some reason, cannabis use for some reason causes or promotes "flashbacks" or similar perception from previous psychedelic use. I began to notice that "things weren't quite the same" when I smoked cannabis ever since my first few exposures to LSD 18 years ago. But this definitely a question of what came first the chicken or the egg because I do know of quite a few people who have never used classical psychs or any proper psychs for that matter who experienced visual phenomena when they smoked. It could be that the more psychedelic exposures you have the more psychedelic pot gets? I don't know. YOu are correct that weed induces very acute symptoms of previous "psychedelic symptoms"

There is zero evidence to support the statement that LSD is toxic. It is supposedly one the least toxic compounds you can put in your body, in the classic definition of toxicity. However there is PLENTY of evidence that it can/may and does change brain chemistry . By what method I don't know. But either neuroscience has to play catch up and find an instrument that can detect toxicity that we don't yet understand or cannot detect in the brain or LSD cannot be called toxic. Harmful to to ones mental state, perhaps, but I don't believe its that black and white. I don't think everyone suffers the same "damage" or side effects, some benefit emensly from LSD use. LSD is a "type" of tryptamine and DMT is a tryptamine which as you probably already know has a similar action on the brain as LSD and is endogenous. Im not saying that this is rreson to believe that LSD is safe, Im saying that other LSD like compounds may be. Perhaps through chemistry we may be able to discover a psychedelic that's less harmful, or maybe DMT will be proven to be harmless if used in certain ways/doses , perhaps in conjunction with other chemicals. Who knows, chemistry is complicated not to mention neurochemistry. The psychedelic experience must have some sort of function in the brain/mind.

Set? Well if one doesn't understand set that person should probably not use psychedelics. Set can be complicated but one must really be honest with themselves and be able to put issues in their head aside and be ready to confront any issues that may arise while tripping. If one can be completely honest with themselves one may conclude that he/she has no business tripping in many cases. Tripping should be a rare treat if any at all. I think there are rare oppurtunities in which one has the right set. You are right its difficult to define set because their are too many factors including deep rooted issues that may arise while tripping and that may be traumatizing and damaging to an individual.
 
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Further, set and setting can be made conducive by not viewing holocaust footage while already in a depressed mood. Point Im trying to make is deep seated problems may uproot no matter what the situation but you can reduce this occurance HUGELY by following the rules of set and setting.
 
Read the definition of toxicity and decide for yourself whether a chemical which has a low LD50 is toxic.

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Understanding and preparing for what you may experience. Knowing LSD is a strong drug with slow come up and long lasting effects. Not being tricked into thinking you are taking something else, Being reasonably informed to anticipate what will happen. This kind of 'set' is verified as important in regard to bad experiences.

The therapy mind set you are talking about is a ritualized belief. It may be useful guidance for therapy but it does not stop a chemical from damaging receptors that control brain functions in a vulnerable individual or stop you from venturing into a nightmare.

I imagine a bad trip leads to strong beliefs when the next session goes well. Like a ball player's lucky hat. Skepticism goes right out the window.

The trouble with saying that people benefit from LSD is that it carries the same burden of proof as someone claiming LSD hurt them. People grow and change, just because you believe LSD is responsible does not make it so.

The only argument I have against setting is that when dealing with hallucinogens your surroundings seem superficial. That soft pillow might be a portal to outer space or some breathing thing creeping toward you. Also, this idea of set and setting could be generalized to every drug and every experience.

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It is a good bet to say everything in our body serves a purpose. We don't have 60 mg of DMT and a lighter in our brain however.
 
So many people say acid fries your brain, but i have yet to notice any changes.
Is all this normal?
I remember being prescribed a decongestant. I took it for 4 days and then noticed it was getting hard to swallow.

I located a lesion in my pharynx and did a search on the medicine and found out that it was a very-rare side effect and so was not reported to consumers. As a consumer I was also a test subject.

Fortunately I uncovered it myself. It was not caused by the normal course of my illness, and actually, in one study it was not a rare side effect. I managed to report all this to my doctor.

You would most likely take that medicine and not have any issues.

If I was prone to say such unenlightened things, I might tell you to stay away from it because "it will burn a hole in your throat." If I wanted to make a goofy movie about it, the decongestant would be replaced by vampire bats or a crazed doctor digging into people's larynx with a rusty scalpel.

Of course, LSD does not literally burn holes in your throat and annihilate the world in some kind of an atomic flash.

However, you have got test subjects who were developing psychosis, which has all sorts of issues ranging from chronic anxiety to memory problems and paranoia - a real serious mental health issue, and flashbacks which were hallucinations.

So you get the layman terminology coming out of personal use that LSD burns holes in your brain and people permanently tripping and murdering people.

Is it true?

First I would look at the animal testing. They gave large doses of LSD to rats for 8 days straight and it gave them brain damage. It lowered the density of a rat's seretogenic receptors.

Of course in earlier studies they were simply killing the lab rats.

You may be thinking, "What a bunch of idiots, I am not doing a ton of acid for 8 days!", you wouldn't be able to kill yourself either, but that is how animal testing works. The rats, which do not vomit, are of a certain breed and they are measured so we have consistent data for all drugs. They go through extreme testing to make the harm being done more obvious.

Rats are actually related to humans well enough (blasphemy!) to clue us into what was occurring in the human test subjects.

Now, these experiments were in the 50's and 60's and the data is lacking by today's standards. But these were not rare conditions. In the case of psychosis the average of all testing subjects psychosis was occuring in about 0.14% of cases.

There can be some doubts introduced that will diminish this claim. One concern is that people were only attributing a natural other illness to the effects of LSD. LSD is an experience and people tend to give it too much credit. Even under careful scrutiny, this could only be true in about half of those cases (0.07% if you are math illiterate).

From some clinical trials, under supervision, the prevelance of psychosis was as high as 4.7%.

Based on evidence in the general population, emergency rooms, the incidence could be 5 times the amount seen in clinical trials.[Abraham, 1993]

So you see, in all modesty, this psychosis is not a rare occurrence and can reasonably be called a common occurrence (between 1% and 10%).

Flashbacks, on the other hand, are a common occurence. They were poorly described earlier but are now called HPPD.

The evidence from the rats shows this something happening inside the brain, although what exactly is happening is a bit hard to say.

Either of these conditions could affect someone for the rest of their life. The individual odds of that are actually fairly good.

So this all boils down to agencies warning people that LSD is a terrible drug. Which the majority of people will disagree with, because:
A) People don't care about the mentally ill.
B) The drug does not cause many people these symptoms.
C) The majority of people, at most, may experience a few "bad trips" (a subjective definition) and think that is all there is to these rumours.
D) Symptoms underreported by users; especially paranoid crazy people.

Now should it be called brain damage? I would imagine yes. This is something permanent in your brain that is being altered to produce negative effects.

But it does not effect everyone. You may continue being unaffected, or your luck might run out. There is not enough clinical data to say for certain.

Glad you asked?
 
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Wow where to begin... how about with yet another false claim that "lsd damages receptors". It does not damage receptors. This is a fact. According to the latest research and studies LSD does ZERO damage to the brain.

Are you familiar with the term neurogenesis? Well LSD and psilocybin actually cause the brain to grow neural tissue, FACT. However Im still on the fence about whether LSD and psilocybin effect the brain in a negative way. Anyway. LSD stimulates neuronal growth and plasticity. In theory this can both be beneficial and damaging. Bad experience on LSD will cause a much more powerful impact on your consciousness, after all we are just a collection of memories and LSD inbeds these memories exponentially through plasticity. In theory if you "keep it together" then you can benefit quite generously.

I hypothesize that there's a connection between HPPD and the neurogenesis. Ok, first of all let me start with the length of time LSD seems to have acute influence on the mind, 12-14 hours. Nearly double that of psilocybin and most people will agree that LSD is MORE visual of a drug than psilocybin. HPPD is more reported in relation to prior LSD use than psilocybin use. I theorize that both LSD and mushrooms are equally common and popular in certain demographics. Now if in fact LSD promotes the brain to grow neurons during this acute influence it makes some sense to me that it may have an effect how you process visual information. Much of the viual artifacts that people notice post LSD can also be noticed prior to ever using it, it just takes more focus and attention to see them. Much in the same way abstract thinking comes easier POST LSD and it takes more attention and effort prior to its use. Think about the fact that LSD magnifies your attention to minute detail. YOu ever look at a grasshopper on LSD? Its almost as if youre looking at it under a miscroscope you notice every fine detail . These are things that you "don't need" to notice in day to day living. Your brain only needs to know whether or not that grasshopper is a threat. Visual snow and afterimages are not a threat but LSD causes you to pay attention to these artifacts and during this time your brain is growing neural tissue. See the connection.

MDMA and LSD are both used by the same demographic. MDMA shows neurotoxic effects, this can be measured and quantified through autiposies post mortem. Further, LSD has been around for nearly 40 MORE years than MDMA, if it was as toxic as MDMA we would surely have better evidence than some rats that where overdosed for eight straight days. Why havnt they been able to quantify brain DAMAGE in LSD users post mortem?

What was the dose given to these rats to cause this alleged brain damage? Do you have the paper url/link? "high dose" is vague and is cherry picking to support your argument. I can say high dose of vitamin C were given to rats and killed them and conclude vitamin is toxic....semantics... we all know vitamin C is healthy in proper dosages.

I have been using LSD for nearly two decades with varying effects, some good some terrible. All had lasting effects. If a new reputable study shows that LSD is a great danger to my health than I will think twice about my future rendezvous with this compound. I can assure you one thing it has made me far more creative. I can tell you that even with countless times(more than most people I know combined) Ive used LSD it has never impacted my learning or memory to any measurable degree. However, I can definitely say it has changed me. I can make you a huge shopping list of drugs I have used that HAVE impacted my learning and memory to a measurable degree until a long period of abstinence from said substances.

Now, I will conclude with the fact that LSD does in fact cause changes in perception. Perhaps this CAN be viewed as damage. Perhaps this can be an example... a prime example of "less is more". If your brain grows in the wrong sort of way than I suppose you can view it as damage. LSD IMO is not evil nor is it divine. It is what they've always said .....a mind magnifier or manifesting tool. If you are unstable and you are not careful it will magnify that characteristic in you....that's where the danger lies. If you are not comfortable with rapid change in consciousness which potentially will stay with you and your being forever, beware.....remember you are your memories.
 
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To further ex[and on my point of plasticity, if you were to be raised in an environment were your life was constantly in danger then you brain would develop in accordance to these surroundings. You will learn to awaken from the slightest rustle in the bushes during sleep ...ready for fight or flight. You will notice even less details of the grasshopper. Your mind will not have the same appreciation for art or music. The mind has to adapt to surroundings. Somehow psychedelics seem to more rapidly cause a neurogenesis in regards to creativity. This may actually cause a weakening function of other types of information processing. People that have fried to many times , often called burn outs (like me) enjoy poetry , music and art and appretiate these things more and my abstract thinking and humor seems to be less conducive in many social situations. So I can see how society may view this as damage.....ugh I feel like Im rambling now.
 
60 mics/kg (~110 hits?who knows???) as part of a series of experiments which concluded that it lowers the signaling and density of raphe neurons.

HPPD risk appears to be independent from the number of times you've done the drug.

It appears that a group with increased risk for schizophrenia (latent psychotic, family history) also has a higher risk than normal for LSD induced psychosis.

Since you've already done it so many times, I think... I read somewhere that it most often occurs early in an LSD career, because people sense something is amis and stop using. Not sure if they have any data to back that up.

This is probably where the "7 trips and you are legally insane" trope came from. People who stopped using think people who keep using must have totally lost it.

Almost all people use psychedelics also use other drugs (98% also used marijuana) so it is difficult to measure any effect (such as short term memory) independently caused by LSD.

All the chemist vs psychologist debating is inconclusive, as we do not know yet a cure. In either case it involves the organ in your skull and if you don't consider HPPD "damage" then that is understandable. It is just shorthand lay person way to speak and I am not sure if this term carries any scientific distinction.

Toxicity however most certainly does. LSD has an oral rat LD50 of 16.5 mg/kg.

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Understanding there is a practical risk for psychosis will help users, along with understanding there are differences between a bad trip and a psychosis. Investigating the more mundane causes of psychosis, before starting stimulants and hallucinogens, may also help with set.

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Different hallucinogens, like LSD and psilocybin, are subjectively very similar even though they are known to affect different receptors. Different causes give rise to similar hallucinogenic effects.

Likewise, psychosis and perception disorders not related to drugs can share the same symptoms and respond to the same treatments as the drug induced varieties of these abnormalities, without necessarily having the same cause.

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I can understand your point of view and am not absolutely sure of anything. It is good, both intellectually and spiritually, to investigate these different points of view. To experience another's viewpoint.

You do not seem to be rambling.
 
I have experienced psychosis from LSD without having had the family history, due to doing too much and too often. I don't regret doing it because of all the valuable insights I learned but there has to be some middle ground between "LSD is the holy grail and it'll never harm you" and "Do it too much and you're crazy / not in touch with reality anymore". LSD pushed the envelop on what I would consider "reality" and showed me an expanded, novel version, but it certainly had some negative neurological impacts that I can't deny. Some people wake up the next day after doing LSD fresh as a rose while someone like me took days to recover. Some brains are just more sensitive than others.

My truthful thought on psychedelics like mushrooms and LSD is that beyond their entertainment value they should be treated with respect as powerful learning tools, to be used in moderation. If you find that you have a lot of trouble relating to the every day world for extended periods after using then you should probably stop for a good long while. I do not support the notion that LSD should be locked away and its use reserved for professionals only, however, I have never understood those who use it as a party favor either.

As for HPPD, I don't buy it completely, but can't speak for everyone else's experience. I feel that part of what LSD does is open one's sensory channels to wavelengths that most humans don't naturally experience, aside from the few who are born highly sensitive. It's why LSD is so insightful yet while on it your regular way of operating becomes totally dysfunctional. The spectrum shifts to a different wavelength for a time. With regular use your brain adapts to that kind of experiencing and has a tendency to stay there even if you return to "common reality". Again, it only becomes a hindrance if it affects your day to day functionality, or you start flipping out about it because the perception you were used to beforehand is no longer the same. Is it brain damage or evolutionary adaptation?

I was born with hearing that was shifted to the higher mhz range while the lower range is somewhat inept. So, as a child, I could hear electric hums of technology a lot more acutely which disturbed my sleep among other things. As a result, I hear things that other people don't and thus they conclude I must be imagining it because it's not within their perceptual spectrum. I feel that LSD shifts people to awareness of those other levels that non-users would readily deem "imaginary". It's why I'm hesitant to say that LSD damages brains because the notion of "damage" is based on empirical deviance from an established physiological/functional baseline. The truth is that regardless of LSD use or not, there are many humans in the general population who perceive outside of the normal spectrum, but because they are relatively functional they are either unaware that they are deviant (scientifically speaking) or it has never been a problem for them.

With psychedelics you're turning up the dial on certain senses while shifting others. In the psychospiritual interpretations this is merely the factual goal of the work, to shift awareness for the sake of learning special knowledge or gaining better understanding from a new vantage point.

IMO it all comes down to functionality. If you are coping and functioning fine then chances are psychedelics are not harming you in any meaningful way.
 
I was severely depressed when i did LSD. It did not cure my depression nor worsen it.
It was just a fun little blip amidst unimaginable lows and horrible thoughts.
 
Psychedelic drugs are good, but it's always good to force yourself to take yourself with a grain of salt while you're on them.

Sometimes, I take one pointlessly and it's just pointless. But here I am. Typing at 5:33am sober.

Thing is, you should have a serious stockpile of whatever it is when you first trip. Or money and access to it. Maybe some ondansetron for nausea (anti-nausea med), if you're not a weed smoker. Never tried it myself but would be convenient and I obviously would without a doubt..

Thing with psychedelics is, don't be hypothetical at all. No, this isn't for short-term "I'm suffering within my trip help me" whining, mumbly ass people; rather it's for those who think they had a great trip that put the reality of their plans into perspective and go on to live their great hypothetical life.. Until at some point they realize there is a disconnect and they have really disconnected themselves from the social world and withdrawn, simply because they could.


My 2cents
 
Psychedelics—specifically tryptamines and phenethylamines—have been proved— relative to other types of recreational drugs—to:
a.) possess a fewer number of potential adverse effects
b.) have less severe and debilitating adverse effects
c.) and have a lower probability for the occurence of adverse effects

Therefore, my impressions, informed by scientific consensus, of psychedelic drugs is that their use is substantially less deleterious than other classes of psychotropics, and that their use poses an insignificant risk for psychological or physiological harm.

However, this is only a general case; as a whole, psychedelics are some of the least pernicious and least habit-forming psychoactives known to science.

But I see no reason to believe the development or discovery of a toxic and dangerous psychedelic drug to be wholly outside the realm of possibility. Given a sufficient quantity of time and enough effort, I think psychedelics with side effects equal to or greater in severity to, say, for example, dizocilpine or ketobemidone is not only likely, but inevitable.

Of course, one shouldn't stop enjoying their DMT, LSD, mescaline, and all those other dearly loved and widely known psychedelics. Rather, one should simply abandon that popularly promulgated, thoughtlessly trothplighted, and embarrassingly ignorant notion that drugs are either entirely good or unmitigated evil.

There is a gray area here. And gray areas are disliked by most people, but they're no less real nor appreciable.
 
Well, sorry, but seeing your response Nom de Plume under mine is scary to me. One should keep in mind ALWAYS that people with manic tendencies who abstain from all drugs have similar excitotoxicities in their brains. Sometimes entire excitotoxicivilizations. Excitotoxeons will pass, but what remains is the fact that you are technically just as able to cause yourself brain damage just by being yourself while tripping. Of course it always feels too fucking ridiculous at the time to bother thinking about your brainses being mlelted..

hmm brainses mlelted...
 
If I had known what they would do, I would have never done shrooms.

Now, my life is in shambles and I have constant paranoia, delusions and anxiety.

It was 7 months ago and I feel like I'm still tripping, despite getting sober off of all drugs including cigarettes.
 
If I had known what they would do, I would have never done shrooms.

Now, my life is in shambles and I have constant paranoia, delusions and anxiety.

It was 7 months ago and I feel like I'm still tripping, despite getting sober off of all drugs including cigarettes.

In the shadow of your mushroom experience you probably noticed an underlying mental illness. The actual cause of the mental illness can be a lot of things. Lately we are learning it's unlikely mushrooms cause these disturbances. Psychedelic users often complain of mental illness less than non-psychedelic users.

EmmaSofia said:
21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/

Lately I feel better because of my psychedelic experiences. Things are sweeter since I am on the getting well side of mental illness. Though my life with schizophrenia is different than other peoples lives, lately I have found more peace with my self and society because I have these tools. I learned perceptual abnormalities aren't my decision. How I respond is my decision. I chose acceptance and my situation has improved. I think your situation could also improve.
 
Yes, it is normal.
It is normal in two ways. Taking psychedelics will cause a permanent change and it is normal for people to hear voices.
The second point has nothing at all to do with drugs. Most people have voices but do not pay attention to them. In other individuals these voices are out of control.
A mental condition is generally related to a normal mental process. Normal, meaning that a very high percent of people experience it. Nothing is added to your head which was not there before, but something is altered outside of normal functioning. Taking a psychedelic is relatable to a short term mental disorder. Like a muscle that has contracted or tightened to an extreme, to the point surrounding muscles are affected by it. Hearing voices is one example or possible result. We all hear voices, but only in a few cases do voices overwhelm people and start consuming their thoughts.
Mental disease is mulitple symptoms coming from a single cause, one would hope at least, and toxic chemicals can cause them. LSD is stupendously toxic by the way. A curious person may simply want to experience it, but I would tell that person that it is not a free ride and not the most intriguing thing that life has to offer.
Certain people who, for whatever reason, were permanently affected by voices took psychedelics to increase the prominence of the voices and strengthen other details surrounding the voices, for long periods of time afterward. They felt strongly that the voices were teaching them about unaltered history of the world etc. Whether you buy into their belief or not, the fact is that the psychedelic drugs increased the prominence of certain mental processes for a long time afterward. I noticed this as well, only I did not buy into it and it was not an enjoyable half-life of altered mental state.
Radiation is a fitting analogy. Half-life is not exactly "permanent" and normal life actually includes a lot of radiation.
Whether it is going to alter your mind into one that hears voices, nobody can say for certain. LSD tends to give people enormously huge giant fucking egos though. So much so that they tell you they do not even "comprehend" having an ego. WOw/ But they definitely consider what they thought they knew before to be trivial to what they know now. I tend to disagree with this sentiment but it is what you feel when high.
From personal experience, if smoking the marihuana drug gives you anxiety, then you are not a good candidate for trying out stronger brain chemicals. I tend to think of them a bit like mind rape or shooting bullets in the dark. I also do not buy into any of the set and setting having any affect on bad trips and never thought HPPD as anything rare for experienced trippers. Most everyone taking these drugs are young. If you do reconsider then you might be thankful for it later, stranger.

I agree with most of your points however it really is specific to each and every person whether weed or LSD or whatever makes you anxious paranoid blah blah...I think some of your points could do more harm than good to someone searching the internet to help them make decisions.

I think as long as the person takes as many precautions as they can, approach with small amounts initially, be cautious and be sound in mind that they are ready for whatever then THEY can find out themselves is a certain drug is good for them or not :)
 
Lately I feel better because of my psychedelic experiences. Things are sweeter since I am on the getting well side of mental illness. Though my life with schizophrenia is different than other peoples lives, lately I have found more peace with my self and society because I have these tools. I learned perceptual abnormalities aren't my decision. How I respond is my decision. I chose acceptance and my situation has improved. I think your situation could also improve.

That's very powerful, SteamboatBillJr. <3
 
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