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    how pure can a crystal be? 
    #1
    Ok, sounds like a strange question??? But we got talking the other night about this and I'm desperate for someone smart to explain the world of crystals to me.

    So you have a crystal of a certain drug. Does this mean it is guaranteed to be a certain putirty? Does the purity fit to a certain range ie 95-100%? What's the lowest % that a crytal can be before it won't crystalize? Can a crystal be say 50% one substance, 50% another similar subtance? Can crystals be actually salts? Do they contain some kind of anion or cation added on that is just taking up space?

    All these questions came up recently because there are atleast two varieties MDMA being sold in their crystal form in this area. There have been claims that one is stronger than the other. My response was - lets ask science. How much stronger can one be? Unfortunately my science on crystals was not up to the task. I studied a bit of science in high school, but that was a long time ago.

    One thing I do remember is that drugs often have stereoisomers and I just discovered an interesting discussion about MDMA isomers here: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=148356 (However my question is just about basic purity, not stereoismers.)

    Hope you guys can help!
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    #2
    Bluelighter tweex's Avatar
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    Crystals can be salts, freebases, metals, anything... all depends on what substance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal

    Cocrystals (a mixture of substances in a single crystal) do exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocrystal

    The only way you are going to be sure of purity is to actually run tests. Although solvent extraction may give you a rough idea of purity based on final yields, if done right.
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    #3
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    what tweex said. it's easy to "cut" a product and recrystalize it to make it appear to be pure but actually not so much, if you have a little bit of science knowledge or the spare time to google it.
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    #4
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    The only way you are going to be sure of purity is to actually run tests.
    This.

    Just because a drug form a crystal doesn't mean it's pure. (c.f. rock candy is not pure sugar but it crystallises anyway)
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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev0r View Post
    what tweex said. it's easy to "cut" a product and recrystalize it to make it appear to be pure
    is this something that however is going on very much in the world of illicit drugs? I mean at a basic level I wouldn't expect dealers to be recrystalizing their product. They just mostly don't strike me as that smart or that concerned. And they can always just mash it into a powder and cut it that way a whole lot easier.

    Thanks for the responses! I guess my question was pretty broad. Maybe I should limit it to MDMA crystals. I'll post something in that section. But if anyone wants to keep talking about typical purity of drug crystals I'm keen to keep learning.
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    #6
    With many things the drug is impure after the synthesis, never cleaned up properly. Meth fits this. MDMA is also likely to contain impurities from the synthesis. These are all crystals, and then they're frequently cut further. However, with both of them, if you're getting decent crystals odds are good that it hasn't been cut significantly and only contains synthetic byproducts. With MDMA those are probably mostly benign, but meth? No way. They're using shit 'reagents' and not taking care most often.

    Is most meth still homemade or is it coming from Mexico now? The superlabs there are probably miles more careful and do better jobs.
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by lab slave View Post
    is this something that however is going on very much in the world of illicit drugs? I mean at a basic level I wouldn't expect dealers to be recrystalizing their product. They just mostly don't strike me as that smart or that concerned. And they can always just mash it into a powder and cut it that way a whole lot easier.
    Hmmm way to make a gross generalisation about dealers there buddy, just like us users each one is a unique snowflake.

    It's quite common at least over these ways for low tier dealers to re-crystalise their product. crushed or powder is generally less desirable and some people have been burned so many times with bunk gear they will only buy crystals or rocks, an example would be meth which is virtually always cut with some amount of msm which has similar chemical properties and crystals as meth, they dissolve the gear in solvent add msm and evaporate, this crystalised mixture is then broken up into chunks to be sold , any monkey could do it.
    That's just one I'm sure there could be a mega thread on the ways to cut dope; an RC some aniseed flavour and some brown food colouring you could turn those msm crystals to "molly".
    It's marketing it's business and often times straight out greed, sure just mixing powders would be easier but people generally associate crystals with higher quality hence it can command a higher premium and people would be more likely to buy it.
    never underestimate the power of placebo, perception is reality.
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    #8
    Men who have sex with men crystals? Word.

    I doubt many low level dealers are cutting their product with MSM, that would be happening right at whatever superlab is pumping the stuff out.
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    #9
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    crystal is just a structure, every substance is different in terms of how/when/what purity etc will put it in that form

    test for purity using the usual methods
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammilton View Post
    Men who have sex with men crystals? Word.
    I was drinking soda when I read this... It came out of my nose, and is now everywhere. Bravo sir, my hat goes off to you!

    Just to echo the others here, it is absolutely possible to have a crystalline substance that is composed of multiple compounds. You could see that by reading through the old DEA Microgram Bulletins from before they stopped releasing them for public consumption. They were frequently seizing meth of <70% purity, and the pictures of the seizures very often showed huge 'icicles' that many meth heads would cream their jeans over. Crystalline does not equal pure.
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammilton View Post
    I doubt many low level dealers are cutting their product with MSM, that would be happening right at whatever superlab is pumping the stuff out.
    You doubt dealers are cutting their product with one of the most common cuts?
    Anyway not everyone here is from the US and getting supplied from Mex , Like I said I can only speak for my region , a totally different market, demographic etc. In many countries it is still a cottage industry like it was in the US in 90's, in these parts PSE is intercepted at borders in far greater amounts than the final product, my guess would be because importers would face lesser penalties. Of course there is still pure stuff coming in from SE asia but by the time it hits the consumer its around 30-60% pure and a point goes for what a g does in the US.
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    #12
    I doubt low level dealers are doing the cutting. MSM isn't a common chemical, so there are cheaper and easier ways to cut it that don't require half as much work. I sincerely doubt the guy cranking out a few grams is going through this much work. Pun not intended.

    I doubt many people making less than a hundred grams at a time have ever bothered to cut their product with MSM.

    I know it's commonly found in American meth, which contrary to your claims, is now primarily made in Mexico and smuggled in. There's still people making it, though. The shake and bake method has increased in popularity while the better methods have become less common. The quality of American meth was steadily increasing until 2005 when it took a sharp tumble. This was about the time the Mexicans started using MSM as a cut.

    70 percent of American meth was manufactured in Mexico. You'll find this hard to verify without the 'hecho en Mexico' stamp, they stopped using it because they know how much hillbillies hate NAFTA... google '70 percent of meth used in America comes from Mexico' and you'll find an easy source, there's also literature, but if you don't have access to them it won't help you much.
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammilton View Post
    I doubt low level dealers are doing the cutting. MSM isn't a common chemical,

    I know it's commonly found in American meth, which contrary to your claims, is now primarily made in Mexico and smuggled in. .
    Which claims are you referring to? because I never said anything of the sort.

    I did say I can only speak for my region not for the US. MSM isn't common? MSM can be bought from any health food store , right now I could pick it up as easy as I could a bottle of milk.

    There may be cheaper and easier ways to cut, But if you are trying to cut meth and still sell it as a crystal not a bag of crushed up powder, re-rock with MSM is the most common option.

    here 100g would buy you a new mercedes, It doesn't take a fancy man to realise that if you've already gone through all the hoops of making the shit you would go also through the trouble of a simple re-crystalisation.
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    #14
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    I've noticed that crystal apvp seems incredibly dirty nowadays as far as Its psychoactive effects and imo the Chinese try to pump out the crystal apvp as fast as they can and not taking the time needed to wash it so it retains the original purity of the powdered product. It just seems like it burns tastes and feels much dirtier but maybe it's just me.
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    #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammilton
    I doubt low level dealers are doing the cutting. MSM isn't a common chemical, so there are cheaper and easier ways to cut it that don't require half as much work. I sincerely doubt the guy cranking out a few grams is going through this much work. Pun not intended.
    Looking at this one popular auction site and a large online book retailer, pure MSM can apparently be had for quite cheap, and recrystalization would prove trivial. Nice looking 'shards' sell for way more than heterogeneous looking powder.

    ebola

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SeenSoFar View Post
    .... They were frequently seizing meth of <70% purity, and the pictures of the seizures very often showed huge 'icicles' that many meth heads would cream their jeans over. Crystalline does not equal pure.
    I'm not sure I understand that post, I mean 70% is incredibly pure for a clandestine manufacture drug synthesis. What people often forget is that 19-20% of a meth crystal is the acid used to make the solid. If 80-81% is absolute purity of crystal meth I don't think 70% is much of an example of adulteration, it's more an example of high purity. The DEA rating for ICE is 80% or over, anything under that they call crystal Meth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ebola? View Post
    ....... pure MSM can apparently be had for quite cheap, and recrystalization would prove trivial.
    Trivial?

    I don't know if I'd say trivial because the two tend to have separation and they will not conform in a co-crystallization. I kind of think the word solidification is more an accurate term when talking about the MSM/Meth platelet that dealers set at home, more a kin to making a tray of hard toffee then any recrystallization.
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    #17
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    What people often forget is that 19-20% of a meth crystal is the acid used to make the solid.
    nobody does this though, it's an excuse for e-tards to bulk their molly down 25% and claim it's still "fire". if you hand a DEA guy pure methamphetaine HCl they're not going to tell you it's 81% meth HCl.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by sekio View Post
    ......... if you hand a DEA guy pure methamphetaine HCl they're not going to tell you it's 81% meth HCl.
    Well I don't know any DEA guys personalty, all I have to go on is the DEA Microgram Bulletins mentioned as the source for the "70%" comment. Methamphetamine HCl is quantified in the bulletins as the percentage of assayed Methamphetamine found in the sample submitted for testing, so without evidence to the contrary I feel comfortable that my statement is valid.
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    #19
    Well considering that the DEA Microgram Bulletins very clearly state in many of the methamphetamine exibits that are quantified 'x% Methamphetamine HCl', I would say Sekio's post is correct. I've never once heard a salt form of a compound as being referred to as impure in any of my vast amount of reading a wide variety of scientific papers. I have seen 'Xmg of Y HCl, which is equivalent to Zmg of Y freebase', but never once have I ever seen a pure salt form of a substance being referred to as being impure or referred to as 'x% pure Y freebase'. If you could show me a source for this then by all means I'd be happy to accept that I am wrong, but this goes against everything I've ever seen practiced.

    Also, I never said 70% was an example of a lot of adulteration, just an example of a large, uniform crystal of a common street drug that is significantly less than 100% purity.
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    #20
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    Why is the DEA using street slang internally? :P
    ...
    Trivial?

    I don't know if I'd say trivial because the two tend to have separation and they will not conform in a co-crystallization. I kind of think the word solidification is more an accurate term when talking about the MSM/Meth platelet that dealers set at home, more a kin to making a tray of hard toffee then any recrystallization.
    My mistake: I was thinking more about the look of the end product ("It's fire glass, yo!!one")

    ebola

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    #21
    MidWest US here, on the topic of low-level meth dealers cutting with MSM, I can only speak for my region, but I have never known a dealer who didn't use MSM. I was usually close to them, watching they house while they make deals, seen it happen right in front of me literally 100 times. Most gank it from Wal-Mart. I've seen junkies buy straight MSM and then come back for more. Easy as hell to do. Making mac n cheese is more of a hassle and more time consuming. My old go-to would often do it in 1/4g it was so quick and easy.
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    #22
    Bluelighter THE_REAL_OBLIVION's Avatar
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    So, by reading this, I can counter those around here in Qc, Canada (meth pill capital of the world) that powdered meth can be just as strong/pure as the crystal meth only to be found in the gay village of montreal is basically the damn same thing as the crystals "they'd never fucking do" ? Only difference is impossibility to smoke.
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    #23
    Bluelighter tweex's Avatar
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    Yes... what do you think happens if you put extremely pure meth crystals in a blender, for example?

    Hint hint: you won't have large crystals, or impure crystals...
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    #24
    Bluelighter THE_REAL_OBLIVION's Avatar
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    Well that doesn't explain that even crushed pills can't be smoked. It doesn't really work at all. Snorted sure, but the lowest of the low around here crush these white pills. No offense to those who like meth, I did at some moment, when E and Speed pills first came around to about the second half of the 2000's there were pure great meth pills where snorting a quarter of them was more than enough. Now they're cut with pseudo, caffeine, dxm, whatever else. Sometimes they actually have a lot of mda/mdma in them and they hate it or become hyper sexual so much I have escaped parties I was at not so long ago when I still frequented these people. Then I got into opiates and decided "fuck people".... ....
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