MAPS MDMA as a replacement for SSRIs for treating depression

Dresden

Dresden

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SSRIs have been found to be nearly worthless in the treatment of depression (working slightly less well than a placebo), and they also cause the same type of "neurotoxicity" associated with MDMA usage. The following study found a 28% decrease in depression in novel ecstasy users after taking low dosages of the drug. This finding suggests that MDMA may work well as a novel antidepressant.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17077812
 
Whoa Whoa Whoa

If you're going to make a claim so lofty as that SSRIs cause neurotoxicity you better have at LEAST one source.
 
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From the abstract:
As no indications were found for structural neuronal damage with the currently used techniques, our data do not support the concern that incidental ecstasy use leads to extensive axonal damage. However, sustained decreases in rrCBV and ADC values may indicate that even low ecstasy doses can induce prolonged vasoconstriction in some brain areas, although it is not known whether this effect is permanent. Additional studies are needed to replicate these findings.
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Saying that MDMA can function as an anti-depressant is a theory that needs more testing.
 
Ho-Chi-Minh said:
If you're going to make a claim so lofty as that SSRIs cause neurotoxicity you better have at LEAST one source or "get the fuck out".
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I read that in some major newsmagazine article about 5 or 10 years ago. Could've been Psychology Today; I don't recall exactly. Anyway, it's a fact that I have no obligation to prove to you.
 
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My gut feeling is that this wouldn't be a sustainable course of treatment, in addition to other problems that may arise. Though it might possible to use it as an occasional adjunct to another course of therapy, but that's pure speculation on my part. I'm also curious as to how much of the effect in the study was pharmacological vs how much was experiential (i.e. spending a quality night with good friends, bonding, other positive experiences tangentially related to MDMA ingestion, etc). This could be quite difficult to tease out empirically though.

As for neurotoxicity & SSRIs, it depends on what you mean by neurotoxicity specifically. There are definite & lasting changes to serotonin receptor densities (various subtypes) and given the idiopathic nature of SSRI's (debatable) efficacy, which of these changes are good & which are not isn't terribly clear. Also, the neonatal effects of SSRIs & similar compounds suggest there is some damaging potential, but to my knowledge this has not been studied significantly in adult humans.
 
amd,

SSRIs have an untarnished reputation when it comes to safety in the psychiatric world

MDMA has the opposite

I would suggest deleting this thread before someone gets the wrong idea
 
With MDMA having recently been shown to be the single biggest factor in predicting whether or not a person is happy it should be a no-brainer that it might be useful in treating depression. Such research is what MAPS is all about.
 
How can a drug (also) known for the Tuesday blues help in treating depression? Nonsense.
 
I've taken MDMA hundreds of times and never once experienced the "Tuesday blues."
 
Could a moderator please delete this thread for me? These people can keep taking Celexa, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, and Pristiq for all I care.
 
Aww.. everyone--stop being so mean! It's okay to have ideas and want to promote them, Dresden. I think MDMA in a clinical setting could be beneficial with a trained psychologist for certain patients but it would only be a one time deal sort of thing.
 
Dresden said:
Could a moderator please delete this thread for me? These people can keep taking Celexa, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, and Pristiq for all I care.
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I don't think the thread needs closure or deletion. It's a good topic. You just need to post more scientific sources for your thoughts on MDMA as a depression therapy that could replace SSRIs.
 
MDMA releases too many things/has too many properties that aren't particularly healthy for it to be accepted as a popular medicine pretty much.

but what about drugs that can do similar things (5-ht release) that are further away from the effects of meth? MDAI?

Maybe Dr. Nichols or one of his associates would have a pretty good idea of what an antidepressant regimen of a non-neurotoxic catecholamine/serotonin releaser would look like.

if he did put together something like that, I'd like to see it :)

So my question for you dresden is:
did those people who were diagnosed with depression and took SSRIs become less happy because the label of being "in treatment for depression" reflected into their self image

and did those people who decided to get really high one day become slightly happier because they did it in a free spirited "party" like manner and transformed their self image that way, while simultaneously meeting/making friends with other high people and probably seeing live music


TL;DR

is serotonin up/downregulation the overriding factor in those depression tests?
 
MDAI causes more dysphoria than euphoria. IAP is barely active etc. SSRIs tend to give one flat emotions. The people in that study I cited were new to MDMA and took it in a clinical as opposed to a party setting. IMO there is no substitute for real MDMA.
 
^That's just while under acute effects.

There is something to be said for its possible use as an adjunct to psychotherapy or meditation, though.
 
I think L-tryptophan might be a better solution than MDMA. Former being often recommended for post-MDMA depression.
 
Dresden said:
I've taken MDMA hundreds of times and never once experienced the "Tuesday blues."
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two days after the high there is always a feeling of anxiety/dysphoria that at first you dont notice and think you have escaped then wham it hits you and its horrible.

just because you don't get it has no bearing on how it affects a vast swathe of mdma users. in fact it puts me off mdma even though i love the high because its just not worth a shitty next week
 
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