Opioids kratom harm-reduction: how to avoid withdrawals/dependancy

[Notgivinup]

Hello again guys. I know I'm probably getting annoying already but I'm also thinking I was given clonadine in the hospital and I think IT really helped. I wondered if anyone had any good experiences with it. I of course have no idea how to go about getting it but will figure that out along the way I guess.
Any one ever use it?

Edited to add, I figured out I am taking approx. 24 grams a day, of green malay.

 

[skorpiogirl1975]

Hey there, I hope this is the appropriate place to post this. I am currently on a range of meds for depressioin/anxiety. I recently started using Kratom, nothing has happened but I'm trying to research as much I can to find out of any interactions with with what I"m on and Kratom. I may have just got lucky these few times, it's not worth it if it will cause more harm that do good.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I havent read many threads of phenibut, and no I didnt know it was as EXTREMELY addictive as you say it is. I suppose it can be habit-forming but to say its extremely addictive sounds to me a bit exaggerated. I certainly didnt get addicted to it

Use it daily for a mere 2-3 weeks straight and see if you wanna retract that statement. There's no such thing as taking too much caution in a harm reduction forum, especially when the op is already battling an addiction...do you really want to send him blind into a substance which has a notorious rep for causing serious withdrawals in a short time period? Just because 4 days use didn't cause withdrawals for you doesn't mean the addiction potential is over estimated, once again i strongly suggest doing a simple google search regarding phenibut w/d.

Now on to the op, if your doing a taper your going to want to buy a scale and even two identical level tsp can can vary by weight a bit and every .1 counts when getting downt to a small amount. Now regarding clonodine, if you go into a clinic and tell them your story i doubt they would have any hesitation prescribing you clonodine as it cant really be abused. Correct me if im wrong but clonodine lowers bp which in turn soothes the adrenergic related symptoms of withdrawal so im not surprised you got relief. Loperamide DOES take away kratom withdrawals but can have some side effects of it's own like constipation, lethargy, and it doesn't take away my hot/cold flashes but it's still a great withdrawal aid but i don't know if it extends withdrawal as I've never used it to quit, only on days off. Hope this helps

 

[Fresco]

Use it daily for a mere 2-3 weeks straight and see if you wanna retract that statement

Thats why I said in my original post to use it for no longer then 5 days or so

There's no such thing as taking too much caution in a harm reduction forum, especially when the op is already battling an addiction...do you really want to send him blind into a substance which has a notorious rep for causing serious withdrawals in a short time period?

Its a "she" btw.

Not everyone gets WD's from phenibut. Maybe it will help her get off kratom, it might be worth a shot

Just because 4 days use didn't cause withdrawals for you doesn't mean the addiction potential is over estimated, once again i strongly suggest doing a simple google search regarding phenibut w/d

Yes, she might get addicted. Or she might not, and use it responsibly for 5 days or so

 

[Snake_Eyes]

Well I have to say I am more confused and scared as ever.Phenibut sounds great BUT considering my anxiety I fear I will get addicted to it,so for me, it's out. Two level TSP's every two to three hours is roughly how many grams? (forgive me my memory sucks due to stress and klonapin) I know I had an answer to this before.
I'll have to admit until I can come up with a solid plan and get to the doctor I am back to my regular amounts (trying for less, but not able). Last night I was awake in the worst way, rls, burning hot cold sweats, barely any sleep and today I'm a mess, so I just took two level TSP regular green malay. I hate myself, but I can't just wing it.I need a solid written out plan for me.
I was thinking more about the lope. Sounds easy enough, no doctor involved and is fairly cheap to buy. Would anyone be able to recommend a good stool softener to offset the constipation? (sorry TMI) I am always really regular as I consume the fiber in the leaf, not just the tea. I do toss n wash.
Thanks again. I will not give up trying and any help would be appreciated more than you'll ever know.

The generics (docusate sodium) can be bought really cheap and miralax with hot prune juice works surprisingly well. I usually switch between the two every week and don't forget the fiber and drink a lot of water.

 

[Notgivinup]

The generics (docusate sodium) can be bought really cheap and miralax with hot prune juice works surprisingly well. I usually switch between the two every week and don't forget the fiber and drink a lot of water.

Thank You Oh so much, this is exactly what I need, some clear solid recommendations. I do have Miralax for my 8 yr. old, so IF I do try the lope way I won't get myself into trouble and feel even worse.

Yes, I am a she, lol, and a 49yr. old. Guys don't worry about the phenibut, didn't mean to cause a stir. I will only use that as a last resort! If all fails kind of thing.
At this time I do not have health insurance anymore so I can't go to a clinic. I'm kind of on my own here except for you guys. I blew my one chance by getting back on the stuff after a hospital 3 day detox. They sent me home sort of past the worst PHYsical withdrawal, but in a deep depression.

 

[Notgivinup]

I havent read many threads of phenibut, and no I didnt know it was as EXTREMELY addictive as you say it is. I suppose it can be habit-forming but to say its extremely addictive sounds to me a bit exaggerated. I certainly didnt get addicted to it

Use it daily for a mere 2-3 weeks straight and see if you wanna retract that statement. There's no such thing as taking too much caution in a harm reduction forum, especially when the op is already battling an addiction...do you really want to send him blind into a substance which has a notorious rep for causing serious withdrawals in a short time period? Just because 4 days use didn't cause withdrawals for you doesn't mean the addiction potential is over estimated, once again i strongly suggest doing a simple google search regarding phenibut w/d.

Now on to the op, if your doing a taper your going to want to buy a scale and even two identical level tsp can can vary by weight a bit and every .1 counts when getting downt to a small amount. Now regarding clonodine, if you go into a clinic and tell them your story i doubt they would have any hesitation prescribing you clonodine as it cant really be abused. Correct me if im wrong but clonodine lowers bp which in turn soothes the adrenergic related symptoms of withdrawal so im not surprised you got relief. Loperamide DOES take away kratom withdrawals but can have some side effects of it's own like constipation, lethargy, and it doesn't take away my hot/cold flashes but it's still a great withdrawal aid but i don't know if it extends withdrawal as I've never used it to quit, only on days off. Hope this helps

Thank you. Every little bit of advice helps.
Unfortunately I don't have health insurance right now. I don't even know of any clinics around here. My psychiatrist is who put me in the hospital when I finally came clean with her. I don't have the courage to tell her I'm back on as I fear she will drop me as a patient. She is Very strict but very patient to get payed, that's why I try to stay with her. I hope to be able to do this myself. Maybe if I go slower, the depression won't be as bad. IDK. I feel so stuck. But I will keep looking, asking, and trying to find a way out. Thanks again.

Edited to add, yes clonadine lowers bp. They had to monitor mine as it was getting too low. Once I think they skipped a dose because of it being so low.

 

[Notgivinup]

Fresco, btw, I can't seem to get kava to do ANYthing for me (besides numb my tongue) I've even tried chewing the powderish-stick like stuff. It's from a good place. It says it is Waka grade. I've done up to three or four tsps. at a time.
What am I doing wrong?

Edited for stupid spelling mistakes

 

[Fresco]

Fresco, btw, I can't seem to get kava to do ANYthing for me (besides numb my tongue) I've even tried chewing the powderish-stick like stuff. It's from a good place. It says it is Waka grade. I've done up to three or four tsps. at a time.
What am I doing wrong?

Edited for stupid spelling mistakes

Either your kava is poor quality, or you have some kind of cross-tolerance going on. The effects of kava are kinda subtle by the way.

PM me if you need a good online source of kava

 

[Ziiirp]

Hi Notgivinup,

like others already I would recommend a very slow taper. I do not know your exact daily intake, but I would start with the half of it and decrease the dose gradually. If you landed on 5-7 grams daily (after a few weeks) I would stay at this dose and then stop the regular intake. From then on you could try the following :

- take 0.5 - 2 mg Loperamid at the morning
- have 500mg Kratom doses prepared for intake when withdrawal still occures
- take ~500 microgram Melatonin for sleep 30 min before going to bed (it is sold in bigger doses, but these are often far too high!)
- only take Phenibut (2 hours before going to bed) when sleep is likely impossible because the addiction is far worse than that of Kratom, max. dose of 500mg
- take Catuaba/Guarana/adaptogens/Mate/Green Tea extracts or similar for energy at will
- eat a lot of chili if your stomach and mouth can handle it (endorphin release)
- try to let out the 500mg doses of Kratom one time

Be careful with every additional substances in general. The ones I mentioned are pretty safe if you don't take huge doses. But since I do not know, if you are especially sensible to a substance or combination, you should bide other suggestions. Best is to keep the dose as low as possible (on the threshold level).

 

[Fresco]

Hi Notgivinup,

like others already I would recommend a very slow taper. I do not know your exact daily intake, but I would start with the half of it and decrease the dose gradually. If you landed on 5-7 grams daily (after a few weeks) I would stay at this dose and then stop the regular intake. From then on you could try the following :

- take 0.5 - 2 mg Loperamid at the morning
- have 500mg Kratom doses prepared for intake when withdrawal still occures
- take ~500 microgram Melatonin for sleep 30 min before going to bed (it is sold in bigger doses, but these are often far too high!)
- only take Phenibut (2 hours before going to bed) when sleep is likely impossible because the addiction is far worse than that of Kratom, max. dose of 500mg
- take Catuaba/Guarana/adaptogens/Mate/Green Tea extracts or similar for energy at will
- eat a lot of chili if your stomach and mouth can handle it (endorphin release)
- try to let out the 500mg doses of Kratom one time

Be careful with every additional substances in general. The ones I mentioned are pretty safe if you don't take huge doses. But since I do not know, if you are especially sensible to a substance or combination, you should bide other suggestions. Best is to keep the dose as low as possible (on the threshold level)

^^ good post.

I would just add that 500mcg of melatonin is too low though. I take 5mg to get me to sleep.

You can also add 25mg doxylamine to melatonin, it gives it extra turbo boost. Doxylamine is OTC, available in some drug stores and Ebay

 

[Notgivinup]

Hi Notgivinup,

like others already I would recommend a very slow taper. I do not know your exact daily intake, but I would start with the half of it and decrease the dose gradually. If you landed on 5-7 grams daily (after a few weeks) I would stay at this dose and then stop the regular intake. From then on you could try the following :

- take 0.5 - 2 mg Loperamid at the morning
- have 500mg Kratom doses prepared for intake when withdrawal still occures
- take ~500 microgram Melatonin for sleep 30 min before going to bed (it is sold in bigger doses, but these are often far too high!)
- only take Phenibut (2 hours before going to bed) when sleep is likely impossible because the addiction is far worse than that of Kratom, max. dose of 500mg
- take Catuaba/Guarana/adaptogens/Mate/Green Tea extracts or similar for energy at will
- eat a lot of chili if your stomach and mouth can handle it (endorphin release)
- try to let out the 500mg doses of Kratom one time

Be careful with every additional substances in general. The ones I mentioned are pretty safe if you don't take huge doses. But since I do not know, if you are especially sensible to a substance or combination, you should bide other suggestions. Best is to keep the dose as low as possible (on the threshold level).

Hi Ziiirp, thanks for the plan idea. How would I measure 500mg K? I don't have a scale. I've been using cooking measuring spoons. Only thing about melatonin is, for me, it adds to my underlying depression. Seems I have to be extremely careful to not add anything that could potentially make my depression worse. I even get worsening of symptoms in the winter wwhen there is less sunlight. Sigh.

Edited to add I'm taking roughly 24 grams a day. If one TSP is about 3 grams.

 

[Fresco]

Hi Ziiirp, thanks for the plan idea. How would I measure 500mg K? I don't have a scale

Buy empty gelatin capsules size OO and just fill them up 3/4 of the way, that should be about 500 mg

 

[Putingrad]

I've been on the kratom rollercoaster for two years now. The first year my use averaged 3-4 times per week and withdrawal was never experienced during that time.

In the past year my use has been virtually daily for all intents and purposes. I have literally never dosed more than once per day, however, and almost always at night. Roughly 8 grams. I've quit cold turkey three times in the past year. Each time I make it about a week and a half, and then I'm back to it.

Withdrawals are definitely present, but manageable - I am still able to go about my day at work, etc. It feels no worse than having a moderate cold, accompanied with mild depression. My sleep isn't even particularly impacted, I take a little longer to fall asleep and I wake up an hour or two earlier perhaps is all. No RLS to speak of.

I attribute my lack of severe physical withdrawals despite being a daily user to three things: 1) I have no prior history of addiction save for cigarettes, 2) I never, never, never use more than once per day, and 3) I generally eat quite well and am physically active.

The mental/psychological part of the kratom addiction equation is a whole other ballgame, however. For me it has a very powerful psychological pull, I believe in no small part because of my lifelong issues with anxiety and depression (although thankfully neither have been severe). Like I said earlier, even though I've quit three times relatively painlessly I always come back to it. It's hard for me at this stage to tell whether my kratom use is due to my mental and psychological issues or whether my kratom use exacerbates those issues to unhealthy levels.

In either case, I determined fairly early into my two-year affair with this plant that my relationship with it is unhealthy and I believe detracts from my quality of life. Yet I am still a daily user, and my attempts to quit long-term have all failed thus far. With the winter fast approaching I don't believe that I'll be off it any time soon. Be careful everyone, if you must use daily use only once per day like me and hopefully you too will be spared major withdrawal issues. Do not underestimate the psychological pull and power of kratom however, it is strong and sneaky. Good luck to all!

 

[Chziime]

Putingrad, your experience greatly resembles mine of the past 2.5 years. I have spent most every week usually having 2 days when I get kratom, dosing non-stop every couple hours. When it is in my possession, it's personally impossible to dose any less because it IS addictive.

After 2 days of constant use, which is usually 30g total, I get brief withdrawals. Maybe an hour of body pain and depression, but what is most noticeable is that it throws me "off-track." All of the motivation and habit achieved from kratom use seems to disappear, and I have to start over in a way. Any more than 2 days of non-stop use, and I certainly get symptoms of pain, depression, anxiety, frustration, brain fog... that can last a full 24 hours, then I'm just left with the confusion. Yet I still do it! Even, as time goes on, I start to preemptively feel the comedown in the middle of a dose... like I feel good, but have a biological anticipation of a crash.

Recently, I restarted using Agmatine, a wonderful supplement, to assist both in my workouts and with kratom use. Taking 2g a day seems to GREATLY smooth out my kratom experience, potentiating (through 3 mechanisms, one being of course NMDA antagonism) as well as nearly eliminating the anticipation of a comedown. Now, this is a double-edged sword, as the supposed harm reduction of kratom induced me to take it near daily for two weeks! Two nights ago was my last dose, and yesterday, even when still taking 2g Agmatine, I had the worst withdrawals I've had in a long while. Intense anxiety, and I was in bed all day. Even today I felt a bit better after Rhodiola and cacao in the morning, but I had to leave work early due to the nausea, dizziness, etc of withdrawal - symptoms came up that I never even would imagine.

Of course, today, I got more, but I plan to find alternatives soon. It just sucks because kratom helps with ALL of my symptoms, except maybe focus.

In conclusion... I have never really voiced my experiences with kratom, and it is refreshing to be honest with others and myself about how it affects my life. I highly recommend Agmatine for harm reduction, as long as you are smart with it. Look up other studies and topics about it on Bodybuilding.com, longecity or opiophile. Good luck, and please be mindful of kratom's effect on your life. It is NOT an innocuous substance in the slightest.

 

[Mycophile]

Jesus christ,

I've been considering experimenting with Kratom a lot lately having never tried it but keep wondering if I should because of the withdrawal effects.

Now after reading this thread I'm thinking even more strongly that I shouldn't.

It's weird cause some people recommend it as a life saver but then I am hearing all these reports about NASTY HORRIBLE withdrawal symptoms.

I can't have those in my life.

Would most of the people in this thread recommend someone who's never tried Kratom just to never try it at all in the first place??

 

[Snake_Eyes]

Jesus christ,

I've been considering experimenting with Kratom a lot lately having never tried it but keep wondering if I should because of the withdrawal effects.

Now after reading this thread I'm thinking even more strongly that I shouldn't.

It's weird cause some people recommend it as a life saver but then I am hearing all these reports about NASTY HORRIBLE withdrawal symptoms.

I can't have those in my life.

Would most of the people in this thread recommend someone who's never tried Kratom just to never try it at all in the first place??

For most people it's far less addicting than true opiates like oxy so if you don't have any problems with those then kratom shouldn't be a problem, just keep it recreational and avoid daily usage.

 

[Chziime]

What Snake_Eyes said - it almost entirely depends on your addictive history or personality. I'd say it's worth trying, but be very mindful of how you continue to use it. I would never have kratom more than 2 days in a row, per week. I'd say in many regards of my past 2.5 years, it was a lifesaver for depressive symptoms, but even looking back on how much I LOVED (LOVED) the stuff... it's not worth it. It's still an opioid.