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Thread: 25C-NBOMe death in Texas

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    #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zn13bt View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by this? On the NBOMe threads I've recommended taking magnesium or bathing with epsom salts to ease some of the muscle tension and vasoconstriction, but personally in my 20+ trips on 25I and 25C these were minor annoyances at most. I've certainly never felt like it was a matter of life or death. I get far less leg muscle and jaw tension from 25C or 25I compared to what I would get on DOx or MDxx. (This is with oral/buccal admin of all of these substances, and of course everyone is different, YMMV, etc.)
    Well I guess I mistook 'non-OD cases' which is a cryptic term IMO because there are people who apparently OD'ed on doses that were not an OD quantity for others. So the reason I commented on that is that it seemed that it was implied that magnesium or enzyme deficiencies could be a gamechanger regarding whether you may OD or not on a dose that is not that unreasonable on average. My point was that if it can be a little tricky to gauge the effectivity of absorption and if these compounds can be that fickle regarding idiosyncratic severe reactions, I don't think supplementing magnesium takes my worries away.

    "YMMV" certainly reminds us that there are always shifting margins, but if the therapeutic index of these compounds is unacceptable to me personally - especially if the reasons for that are somewhat mysterious - then I am not so desperate to experiment with these compounds that I am willing to mess around with it. That can be a hard decision for someone who 'collects' unique experiences from psychedelic compounds, but I think it is healthy if we can make such a decision for ourselves. If we cannot, then the guinea pig factor becomes compulsive, and that may be an ailment of the research chemical community that I suffered from - and still do to some extent - but we probably all need to be conscious about.
    Last edited by Solipsis; 26-04-2013 at 16:45.
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    #27
    My feeling is that the therapeutic ratio for NBOMes and the exponential dosing curve is in line with other phenethylamines, and the variability in dosing is coming mainly from inexperienced users and dealers who don't know how to measure sub-milligram doses properly or how to lay blotter consistently and who think it's ok to keep doubling their doses (or more) until they get effects (cuz if it comes on blotters, it must be "just like LSD", right?). I think it's just speculation at this point that the OD cases are due to magnesium deficiencies or whatever, and as far as I know all but one of them have been due to nasal administration of high/unknown doses (the one exception being that one Erowid report of a hospitalization from buccally admin'ed blotter). I don't think experienced users of 2C-x or DOx are having a lot of problems with safely using NBOMes.
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    #28
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    have been through this area recently, (south texas general)
    acid is predominantly NBOMe handed out like candy to young high schoolers

    it is worrisome we can only reach so many, and there is still the ignorant.

    the point to me most is the network and kids involved are not aware of anything about other substances
    then what they think is "acid" or "molly" etc
    current "RC's" are on market in multiple locations in the u.s. i've seen, even etizolam
    as in replacing whatever street drug.

    i know this i have seen multiple source of LARGE blotters/tabs as well as liquid :/
    not getting into what is passed around as or even if mdxx "molly"
    Last edited by DubNaut; 28-04-2013 at 08:06.
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    #29
    Bluelighter RobotRipping's Avatar
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    it's the fucking greedy online vendors doing this; they ship the nbome in from china and make the tabs/blotter themselves and sell them. It happens WIDE OPEN ON THE INTERNET. I'm not even talking about the kid who orders a gram of 25i and makes blotters for friends. Big vendors are doing this and it is ruining the LSD market and endangering people and the only reason is greed. Fuck those vendors, you are easily found and well known and anyone worthwhile in law enforcement will have you gone before you know it, for once that would be a righteous thing for them to do for the drug community.

    and hrmm i bet there's a link to those terrible people distributing drugs in your communities and these vendors, what an easy target for LE, the FBI should hire me.
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    #30
    Obviously it's sad to see a fatality for any reason, & although the argument is flawed, it's tempting to hope some legal tension around recreational drug use might ease around the more popular, safer & illegal compounds like LSD, Psilocybin, MDMA & DMT as a result.

    The argument is flawed because even if, for instance, 2c-e were legal, there would still always be some kinda fouled up dosing death or fatal idiosyncratic reactions, or dead hero's who bang too much & end up a statistic, or - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-22321487

    The real reason to decriminalise the safer & more recreational drugs is so that supplies would be regulated & verified as pure, doses could be controlled, & in the event of medical crisis emergency personnel would be well aware of the correct procedures for the few popular drugs. I'm absolutely certain than many drug users, RC & illegal, die because of the stigmatic fear of the authorities that delays the calling for help or emergency services! This needs to be addressed asap & it's really, genuinely a matter of life & death.

    I agree that some people will always be looking for some new experience, but I suspect that the main, basic selection of drugs I've listed above would remain the most preferred & much less RC experimentation would be going on amongst the general public if the long established ones were less illegal. I personally am not necessarilly in favour of cross-the-board legalisation of all drugs simply because I see how much societal & personal harm is caused by the completely free availability of alcohol.

    Politically, we need to harden up against alcohol (especially alcohol related violence) & ease up against drug use. It's a long road, many more will fall on it, I'm afraid
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    #31
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    ^ Very well put Si Ingwe

    Wow man. The comments on that news article got me heated!
    Last edited by Solipsis; 29-04-2013 at 17:04. Reason: merged 2 posts - please use the edit button
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    #32
    I don't think there's any doubt what so ever this is not the last NBOMe death we will see. The body count probably won't go a little slower before all western countries, the US and the EU, puts them into schedule 1. Stemming the flow out of China
    By now we can see a pattern, it's mostly young kids, teenagers, who die from them. Probably because people at that age are more prone to reckless behaviour.

    Right now 1 out of 3 questions here in PD are in regards to NBOMe's. I personally believe that it's time that PD takes an official stance in the matter, and sticky a warning against all NBOMe's at the top of the forum. That they are potentially lethal, That they have killed more people in 1 year than any other psychedelic/research chemical.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't discus them here. I'm just of the opinion that PD for the first time should take a stance in this matter, and label the NBOMe's more dangerous than other psychedelics. They might, or might not, actually be more dangerous if used right. But that's unimportant. The NBOMe's have already shown how lethal they are.
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    #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSD Cruiser View Post
    Also this would be the third death in Texas. There is the 2 mentioned in this article as well as another boy from the Houston area who thought he had ingested LSD. Expect the ban hammer soon folks.
    The discussion of scheduling the entire phenthylamine class of drugs, including 25C-NBOMe, is now being discussed in Texas:
    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...th-4470640.php
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    #34
    Thanks TangerinO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagott View Post
    They might, or might not, actually be more dangerous if used right. But that's unimportant. The NBOMe's have already shown how lethal they are.
    Quoted for truth!

    Regardless of why NBOMe's are causing health crises & fatality, they are & this needs to be addressed urgently by Bluelight in any way possible. I guess a big sticky !NBOME DANGER DANGER! thread is the best bet for now & we can retract it if it turns out after some time that these new drugs aren't dangerous at all & are simply so widespread & badly handled that they are dangerous only because of that.

    But quite possibly, simply because of their strength alone, the NBOMe series of psychedelics are probably the most dangerous psychedelics we've come across yet..? My interest in trying these chemicals at all is now beginning to wain
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    #35
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    I'm personally unconvinced that we have accurate info regarding the size of the doses involved in these fatalities.

    There could be some obscure pharmacological quirk that causes the bomanines to be more unpredictable & dangerous, but my money would be on improper measurement techniques.

    If you hear hoof beats think horses, not zebras

    That being said, I would say their potency does make them intrinsically more dangerous than most psychedelics. Because of that fact alone no one with out proper equipment & know how should really be handling these things.
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    #36
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    Nicelly put Fagott

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagott View Post
    Right now 1 out of 3 questions here in PD are in regards to NBOMe's. I personally believe that it's time that PD takes an official stance in the matter, and sticky a warning against all NBOMe's at the top of the forum. That they are potentially lethal, That they have killed more people in 1 year than any other psychedelic/research chemical.
    BL, and PD in particular, should, in the spirit of harm reduction, sticky this information where it can clearly be seen, and add specific information on the first post of each NBOME B&D thread. This is important as this thread will soon go off sight and more mistakes will be done

    NBOMEs are very popular and I believe we as a harm reduction community should do as much as possible to inform others that these compounds are not like the others [in terms of danger they are closer to x-FLYs than to other phens and probably deadlier].

    Mods, are you reading this?
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by any major dude View Post
    There could be some obscure pharmacological quirk that causes the bomanines to be more unpredictable & dangerous, but my money would be on improper measurement techniques.
    I think there's diffinitely more that separates the NBOMe's from the 2C's than just their potency.

    Obviously the NBOMe's have a much more steep dose/response curve than the common 2c's, adding to the danger of the high potency. Aswell as it would seem that more people seem to be having allergic reactions to them.

    As an example, I'm sure more people would emerge unscathed from ingesting a double dose of 2CB, than a double dose of 25B-NBOMe. I diffinitely know what I'd prefer to OD on anyway.

    As was already mentioned by Erny in the very start when the NBOMe's became available, the dose that might be one persons "high" might be another persons death. I remember him mentioning a friend being hospitalized from just 4 mg of 25B-NBOMe, while he himself survived an accidental 30 mg.

    To safely use NBOMe's, it's simply not enough to just be able to measure ug's correctly. You also have to be able to slowly titrate the dose up, over the course of several weeks, until your find your own dose. Okay, Maybe you don't have to be that anal about it. I just mean you have to be a really carefull, meticulous, sensible and patient person to use NBOMe's.

    A label that doesn't even fit your average bluelight PD'er.

    Basicaly, I'm not so sure all the deaths we've seen so far came from huge overdoses, maybe they just got 1 mg too much, to a total of 2 mg's! We don't know. But some people surely seem more prone to the side effects of them.

    There's a cautionary warning in red at the top of the NBOMe threads suggesting people not start higher than 500 ug. That's nice, I just think it should be made clear that it's actually death that you risk by starting higher.

    No matter the cause, the NBOMe's have killed more people, in a shorter time, than any other psychedelic we know of. I think that warrants a warning.
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    #38
    NBOMe's are being distributed in the UK on blotter. Perhaps if any vendors of UK NBOMe blotter are reading this they might cosider advising new users or users in general to halve or even quarter their papers & titrate doses up slowly every time they use the drugs, & not just chew three blotters up & hope for the best!
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    #39
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    At 16-20x potency of their 2C counterparts it is not a stretch to say the potency is in fact the problem here. From what I have read on the NBOMe's and assessed through my own studies it's my belief that all of the deaths can be attributed to

    A: Overdose,
    or
    B: Serotonin Syndrome, most likely due to mixing with prescribed medications

    With the potency and mechanism of action on certain parts of the brain, these are definitely dangerous compounds for "just anyone" to get ahold of the hCL. They may not be that stable in solution. Blotter paper may be the only safe route for taking these. Gripe about it ruining the LSD scene all you want but even people who think they're being "safe" have no idea the mistakes they are making. You may think your Gemini-20 is accurate when weighing out a larger quantity... You, my friend, are mistaken. Perfectly calibrated, the very best mg scales will be off by ~2-3mg. I have tested this against a sub-mg scale accurate to the microgram on multiple occasions. So as accurate as the "street chemist" thinks he is.. he's not. & this is the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Si Ingwe View Post
    NBOMe's are being distributed in the UK on blotter. Perhaps if any vendors of UK NBOMe blotter are reading this they might cosider advising new users or users in general to halve or even quarter their papers & titrate doses up slowly every time they use the drugs, & not just chew three blotters up & hope for the best!
    I'd not trust a vendor who gave dosage advice. While his intentions may be good, there are a lot of legal problems with this. "Not for human consumption" is all they can legally say.
    Last edited by LSD Cruiser; 29-04-2013 at 18:29.
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    #40
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    I'm pretty sure that NBOMe's wouldn't pose much risk of SS, cruiser, even in combination with other serotonergic drugs.
    And while it's likely that the death's are from huge miscalculations of dosage, for all we know the amount taken was within normal recreational limits.
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    #41
    Although I don't support the idea of posting warnings on every new thread regarding NBOMe's (as one poster suggested elsewhere), I would support a clearly visible sticky in PD, BDD and whatever other forums the moderators deem necessary. Such a sticky could be called "WARNING: NBOMe and Related Compounds" or something similar. It is obvious that these compounds are dangerous. I see no justifiable reason to not post such a sticky. Regardless of what exactly caused the deaths of these people, some facts must be considered:

    * The dosages required to achieve full effects are extremely small. "Safely" ingesting these chemicals requires proper equipment and accurate measurement techniques. It is clear that most (probably all) of the people that have died after ingesting an NBOMe had neither of these.

    * Readymade tabs can be unreliable (e.g. they can contain more of the substance than that stated by the vendor/dealer; they can contain a different chemical from that stated by the vendor/dealer).

    * Street tabs are often passed off as LSD, which can (and often does) mislead people into consuming doses that are far too high to be considered "safe".

    * Some people don't know the difference between an NBOMe and a 2C-x. An individual might think that 2C-C-NBOMe (a.k.a. 25C-NBOMe to informed aficionados of psychedelics) is essentially the same as 2C-C, proceed to snort 30mg of 2C-C-NBOMe, and die a horrible death. (I think that insufflating such a dose of the dry chemical will still cause great harm or kill, but if I'm wrong please post about it.)

    * The brain receptor affinities of these drugs are extremely high. This, in and of itself, warrants an NBOMe warning, imo.

    * In contrast to the 2C-x, DOx and tryptamine series/families of compounds, NBOMe's have yielded very little pharmacological data (i.e. we know almost nothing about them).

    In sum, lay "research" of NBOMe's is very dangerous territory. I think that it is BL's duty to more explicitly warn readers of the potential dangers related to these chemicals. A well-written sticky is in order, even rather overdue.
    Last edited by lamanogaucha; 29-04-2013 at 23:59. Reason: revised text
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    #42
    To protect yourself from the adrenergic effects of the NBOMEs, I suggest 30 drops of Motherwort tincture. It's a natural anti-adrenergic. It prevents most of the muscle tremors and nausea so it probably also reduces vasoconstriction and cardio effects.
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    #43
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    ^As I said in another thread any advice such as this should be taken with a grain of salt and its' purported benefits regarded as highly speculative at this point.
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    #44
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    man it really gets to me that these suppliers get away w selling grams of this stuff to kids in high school :/

    in theory, a G could potentailly be enough to kill hundreds of kids at a party gone wrong.

    from a research perspective, they really are fascinating and we could potentially learn alot from them.

    when i was 16, when we wanted to trip and couldnt find any acid, we went shrooming. the hunt and learning about all the diff types was part of the fun. im a bit frightened nit just ny this new generation of psychs, but also by the carelessness of this new generation of teens.

    come on guys, if youre nit prepared to do your proper research and be responsible stay away from these for now til we know more.this is human lives we are talking about..come on. not only are the laws going to become more harsh, supplies will be harder to obtain, effectively ruining the whole point of why these compounds were created. stick to pot and shrooms and leave the xyz123z to the true researchers.

    gawd im gettin old. sorry for the naggin guys; its all outta love
    Last edited by plusfourpirate; 30-04-2013 at 10:12. Reason: typo
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    #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Si Ingwe View Post
    The argument is flawed because even if, for instance, 2c-e were legal, there would still always be some kinda fouled up dosing death or fatal idiosyncratic reactions, or dead hero's who bang too much & end up a statistic, or - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-22321487
    How much did the guy take god damn it?? I personally racked up a line of 2cb thinking it was coke (stupid stupid stupid). I tripped very hard, but no other problems. Also see http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=86317 and this http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=76578. I know they are not 2ce, but what about this http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=33380. Not as large dose, but still, I think the selective nature of these drugs (2cc) for 5HT2B are producing the problems, as solipsis said. It's not just the low dose range. (full disclosure: phens aren't even my drug of choice)

    I agree with everything else you said though.
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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by plusfourpirate View Post
    man it really gets to me that these suppliers get away w selling grams of this stuff to kids in high school :/

    in theory, a G could potentailly be enough to kill hundreds of kids at a party gone wrong.

    from a research perspective, they really are fascinating and we could potentially learn alot from them.

    when i was 16, when we wanted to trip and couldnt find any acid, we went shrooming. the hunt and learning about all the diff types was part of the fun. im a bit frightened nit just ny this new generation of psychs, but also by the carelessness of this new generation of teens.

    come on guys, if youre nit prepared to do your proper research and be responsible stay away from these for now til we know more.this is human lives we are talking about..come on. not only are the laws going to become more harsh, supplies will be harder to obtain, effectively ruining the whole point of why these compounds were created. stick to pot and shrooms and leave the xyz123z to the true researchers.

    gawd im gettin old. sorry for the naggin guys; its all outta love
    pretty much agree with all of this. though I guess im a bit hypocritical in a sense that I was that ignorant teen not too long ago. the only thing that upsets me is that many people I know are still ignorant to the facts of these things, even though I experienced it first hand, and continue to warn them about the dangers. all anyone has around here these days is nBOMEs and DOx compounds. i am completely against the creation and use of these RCs, and maybe im a little too young to say this, but i feel like these research psychedelics ruin what the acid culture is truly about, at least in my opinion.

    the main thing that stuck with me after my first acid trip was the deep thought i was in for the entire comedown, and the fact that i was literally discovering my soul without the interference of my ego. it seems that most people use just to get fucked up, instead of trying to explore the nature of their souls. after all, i feel that the discovery of ones soul is the most important aspect in regards to many psychedelic cultures, such as the native american vision quests.
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    #47
    Bluelighter rpm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern LIGHTS View Post
    All anyone has around here these days is nBOMEs and DOx compounds. i am completely against the creation and use of these RCs, and maybe im a little too young to say this, but i feel like these research psychedelics ruin what the acid culture is truly about, at least in my opinion.
    Your never too young to have an opinion I for one think the substituted phen derivatives should not be in the public domain [Edit: as this seems unclear - I don't think they should be banned, I think that if the originals where never banned to begin with they would not be in the public domain - read my post below or my others].

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern LIGHTS View Post
    the main thing that stuck with me after my first acid trip was the deep thought i was in for the entire comedown, and the fact that i was literally discovering my soul without the interference of my ego. it seems that most people use just to get fucked up, instead of trying to explore the nature of their souls. after all, i feel that the discovery of ones soul is the most important aspect in regards to many psychedelic cultures, such as the native american vision quests.
    Not sure if you are referring to the the attitude of the users or the nature of the drug (or both). If it's the attitude of the users, then I beg to differ. Everyone uses drugs for different reasons, some good some bad, and purely "recreational use" (just getting fucked up and having a laugh) is one of the least bad reasons in my opinion. Sometimes I like to take some dmt or mushrooms and sit on my own and do some soul searching, sometimes I want something that will give me some nice energy and pretty colors for 10 hours at a festival. However, I do like my experiences to have an insight aspect, even if I am just partying. It's amazing what you notice about social dynamics when you are tripping (even lightly).

    If however you are referring to the drug, well I'd say that phens are in general light on the head for me - so less introspection and ego loss. But others find them to be a useful exploratory tool. Suppose it depends on the person, the dose and the setting. However, if my experience roughly translates to other people, then yes I can imagine that people take these drugs without having to go through much soul searching and ego loss and are thus feel able to take them purely recreationaly (particularly 2-cb). As I said though, I see that as no majorly bad thing in itself, as long as they don't suddenly have an unexpected revelation and go crying to the authorities saying "the drugs made me think bad thoughts".

    Sorry for the rant, just had some coffee ginseng and taurine and my mind is overclocked
    Last edited by rpm; 16-05-2013 at 11:45. Reason: Unclear as TheAppleCore pointed out
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    #48
    Quote Originally Posted by rpm View Post
    I would seldom say this but these 2ci derivatives should not be available.
    Shouldn't be available? I just don't understand it when I hear Bluelighters say things like this. This is the same basic flawed reasoning that gets any drug banned.

    If the kid snorted pure crystalline 2C-C-NBOMe, he deserved to die. 'Nuff said.
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    #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAppleCore View Post
    Shouldn't be available? I just don't understand it when I hear Bluelighters say things like this. This is the same basic flawed reasoning that gets any drug banned.

    If the kid snorted pure crystalline 2C-C-NBOMe, he deserved to die. 'Nuff said.
    If your read my earlier posts you will see that I think now they are available there is no way to put them back in the box. But the reason that they have been marketed is because the original phens they replace where banned. Don't ban the drugs that seem to be reasonably safe and you don't get replacements with even less track record.

    In summery, they should not be available because governments should not have banned the originals.
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    #50
    ^ Ah O.K., gotcha. I think they'd still be available if the original 2C phens weren't banned, though. At least the really curious psychonauts would still be messing around with it.
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