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12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

Why do people that enter A.A. become arrogant and uncaring of people who aren't?

I'm lying awake at two in the morning trying to figure out why my friend of SIXTEEN YEARS turned into an asshole once he got indoctrinated by A.A. and their bullshit. I quit drinking for four years and was still there to clean up his vomit, clean his house that he destroyed and comfort him back to sanity. But the favor is never returned from these twelve step people... he (like all my experiences with A.A. assholes) wants nothing to do with me now because I'm not in the "program." I didn't quit by listening to Bill W's nonsense; I did it on my own. Of course, I admit I screw up sometimes, and I admit that my four years was only that: four years. A few times a year, I still fall into a dark place with drinking, but I've NEVER questioned his path or told him to go astray. I even said I admired his attempt to stay sober. Now he's just holier than thou like all the others.

Is he thinking about me at two o'clock in the morning? Probably not... I've tried my best to be courteous to those in this ridiculous "twelve step" shit, but I'm done. Anyone who says it's not a mind washing cult is lying to themselves. I encourage everyone who's "working" this bullshit program to quit. I understand fixing oneself is important, but if you're too weak to keep in contact with old friends, don't blame it on the friends. Have the decency to admit it's YOUR problem that you're incapable of speaking to an old drinking buddy without being "tempted" or whatever.

A.A. is a bunch of liars, and I'm simply finished with turning a blind eye to this. People's belief (or disbelief) in a "higher power" is up to each individual. So to all you Bill W. fuckers: go on and fool yourselves into thinking you've found the "only way," but know that you're all lying to yourselves as much as you were when you were drinking. The "program" is evil. End of story
 
Yeah, it is somewhat of a cult, and I think sometimes it does more harm than good. "Higher Power" is nothing but a psychological tool.
 
I'm lying awake at two in the morning trying to figure out why my friend of SIXTEEN YEARS turned into an asshole once he got indoctrinated by A.A. and their bullshit. I quit drinking for four years and was still there to clean up his vomit, clean his house that he destroyed and comfort him back to sanity. But the favor is never returned from these twelve step people... he (like all my experiences with A.A. assholes) wants nothing to do with me now because I'm not in the "program." I didn't quit by listening to Bill W's nonsense; I did it on my own. Of course, I admit I screw up sometimes, and I admit that my four years was only that: four years. A few times a year, I still fall into a dark place with drinking, but I've NEVER questioned his path or told him to go astray. I even said I admired his attempt to stay sober. Now he's just holier than thou like all the others.

Is he thinking about me at two o'clock in the morning? Probably not... I've tried my best to be courteous to those in this ridiculous "twelve step" shit, but I'm done. Anyone who says it's not a mind washing cult is lying to themselves. I encourage everyone who's "working" this bullshit program to quit. I understand fixing oneself is important, but if you're too weak to keep in contact with old friends, don't blame it on the friends. Have the decency to admit it's YOUR problem that you're incapable of speaking to an old drinking buddy without being "tempted" or whatever.

A.A. is a bunch of liars, and I'm simply finished with turning a blind eye to this. People's belief (or disbelief) in a "higher power" is up to each individual. So to all you Bill W. fuckers: go on and fool yourselves into thinking you've found the "only way," but know that you're all lying to yourselves as much as you were when you were drinking. The "program" is evil. End of story

While I'm sorry that your friend behaves like an asshole, and while I agree that 12-step groups are not for everyone, there are a lot of people for whom 12-step groups have been helpful. Each of us has to find his own way through recovery. It's really not helpful for anyone (either AA/NA purists or you) to bring judgment and ridicule to anyone else's path.

If you want to talk about problems you're having with your friend, if you want to talk about feeling alienated from AA/NA, all that is fine. If you want to shit on other people's recovery, please do it somewhere other than SL.
 
The basic thought I had when I first saw this is, the fact that 12 step meetings tend to be gathers of profoundly disturbed individuals who gather together with no real professional oversight. Groupthink is a powerful force within these groups, and it hasn't been uncommon to create cultish in/out-group environments at meetings.

Now, some of your rant seems more like you're grieving the relationship you feel like you've lost with your friend who seems to have decided to discard their relationship with you for a type of relationship with his 12 step group. That in many ways is fucked up. It speaks to the power of "the group" and the need to identify with something larger than one's self (both in life and recovery), as well as the problems this can cause folks who decide they want more than "the group" in their lives. More fundamentally though, I think your experience with this speaks to the strength of your prior relationship with him.

Basically my thought is, sounds like you might be better off without this friend. While we don't encourage trash talking any modality that benefits folks, your criticism of 12 step groups based on your experience with your (former) friend is entirely valid and welcome here. It can be hard in these situations, but if you want to explore this further try not to be so spiteful (again, I totally understand, but if you want to discuss it more you'll have to reign it in a bit as simco related).
 
Is he thinking about me at two o'clock in the morning? Probably not... I've tried my best to be courteous to those in this ridiculous "twelve step" shit, but I'm done. Anyone who says it's not a mind washing cult is lying to themselves. I encourage everyone who's "working" this bullshit program to quit. I understand fixing oneself is important, but if you're too weak to keep in contact with old friends, don't blame it on the friends. Have the decency to admit it's YOUR problem that you're incapable of speaking to an old drinking buddy without being "tempted" or whatever.
Before I'm being attacked for being one of those "brainwashed assholes," let me say I'm not. I did not attend a meeting for the better part of a year without the world coming crashing down around me. 12 step fellowships do not have a monopoly on sobriety. Now that that's out of the way, let me say that you said it yourself: the guy probably isn't thinking about you. Why is this eating you up? 12 step meetings (I've heard this more in NA, not sure I've ever heard it in AA) stress people, places and things. If you're pissed off he won't hang out with you while you're drinking, that's just selfish on your part. Seriously, can you blame him if he's working at sobriety? Maybe it's time for you to do some self-reflection and see what your role might have been in him distancing himself from you and try to see things from his perspective. It's that, or let it eat you up.
 
Sorry that you have had this experience with your friend. My father has on & off sobriety for 30+ years. Many of the people he met have changed his life & my families for the positive. My dad would probably be dead if it were not for the fellowship he found - and I mean that in all seriousness not in a joking way.

Everyone's addiction is different. Some people can be around others drinking / using & no problem. For others it is a big problem bc they don't have the restraint over themselves.

Acceptance is a hard pill to swallow.

It may be a flaw in your friend vs. the 12 step program. I am sorry about your loss of his friendship but maybe this will give you both time & space to grow.
 
I have 34 years clean and sober now. My brother in law just st recently retired and started smoking pot every day! He thinks I should stay ripped too. Why? The best thing you can do is get somebody clean to pal up with you and do the things you like to do. I had to learn everything over again. It was a tough couple of years. I went to AA every day the first year. I quit doing drugs the same time. You have to emerge yourself in staying clean and sober. It's got to become your whole life. As the years go by things become easier. Every once in a while that little voice says: "it'll be ok, one drink, one time getting high". I just laugh at that voice now.

lost most of my friends that I drank with. I can be around pot and alcohol now. My wife likes bourbon. Doesn't bother me. We have alcohol in the house all the time. Maybe it's been so long that I just don't have the parties in me anymore. Everybody is different. I just don't like people that are drunk anymore. I just can't relate!
 
I found the insight into how important lifestyle choices are in my ongoing recovery to also be super useful. How it happens may vary, but getting healthy does tend to involve significant lifestyle changes, for sure. Sounds like your super committed to what your doing for yourself and have figured things out prettt well, which is always nice to hear.
 
I have 34 years clean and sober now. My brother in law just st recently retired and started smoking pot every day! He thinks I should stay ripped too. Why? The best thing you can do is get somebody clean to pal up with you and do the things you like to do. I had to learn everything over again. It was a tough couple of years. I went to AA every day the first year. I quit doing drugs the same time. You have to emerge yourself in staying clean and sober. It's got to become your whole life. As the years go by things become easier. Every once in a while that little voice says: "it'll be ok, one drink, one time getting high". I just laugh at that voice now.

lost most of my friends that I drank with. I can be around pot and alcohol now. My wife likes bourbon. Doesn't bother me. We have alcohol in the house all the time. Maybe it's been so long that I just don't have the parties in me anymore. Everybody is different. I just don't like people that are drunk anymore. I just can't relate!
Thank you for sharing your journey! It helps a lot!
 
I have been sober for six years without AA/NA. One of the large reasons I never stayed is because of some of the people there with there all or nothing thinking. I heard from numerous members that if I didn't attend the meetings and work the steps I would die. This just turned me off. Some of the people were very cool and down to earth though. I still struggle with cravings and the crazy voice in my head but I will keep going. I am very lucky and fortunate to have these six years. I also drank on a few occasions over the past six years. My drugs of choice were opiates.
 
^congrats on six years, that's huge! my DOC was heroin (and anything i could get my hands on) i have 25 days now...excited to get my 30 day chip soon :) i agree to being turned off by the idea i'm going to die if i don't work the program and complete my step work. i'd like to think we have more willpower than that to stay sober without AA/NA, but to each their own, i guess! stick to whatever works for you
 
I think many fail in their delivery, they shouldn't have to scare you into working the program, it won't work, you have to want it for yourself. I think beneath that hardness, is a misunderstanding of passion & desire to help others it just comes out all wrong. Don't forget that the people you meet in meetings are just flawed people just like you. Many of them work a full days work & now are at a meeting. They are trying their best but sometimes make mistakes & are not perfect. The first few times I worked with newcomers I felt like maybe I scared them away bc of what I had said & it might be true. But I was trying my best, and I am not an authority, I am not anything but a person trying to be better today than I was yesterday & to help others. There is no exact way to go about it all is what I am trying to say.

I was already dead before starting my program. I was a self-serving, egotistical, perfectionist & a walking dead person before I started my 12 step program.

Are there people who I don't connect with at my meetings? Sure. Acceptance is something that I never understood before & I am starting to learn more about now. We live in a disposable society & we have become disposable w/ people. It's amazing what you can learn when you stick with it
 
I think many fail in their delivery, they shouldn't have to scare you into working the program, it won't work, you have to want it for yourself. I think beneath that hardness, is a misunderstanding of passion & desire to help others it just comes out all wrong. Don't forget that the people you meet in meetings are just flawed people just like you. Many of them work a full days work & now are at a meeting. They are trying their best but sometimes make mistakes & are not perfect. The first few times I worked with newcomers I felt like maybe I scared them away bc of what I had said & it might be true. But I was trying my best, and I am not an authority, I am not anything but a person trying to be better today than I was yesterday & to help others. There is no exact way to go about it all is what I am trying to say.

I was already dead before starting my program. I was a self-serving, egotistical, perfectionist & a walking dead person before I started my 12 step program.

Are there people who I don't connect with at my meetings? Sure. Acceptance is something that I never understood before & I am starting to learn more about now. We live in a disposable society & we have become disposable w/ people. It's amazing what you can learn when you stick with it

That's s really wise way of understanding it.
 
I've reached a strange point in my recovery. After about 3 years of involvement (the first two were on-and off, the last was pretty much on) I think I may have reached the end of my relationship with NA, at least for now.

No big, final event happened. I've had a few bad experiences over the years, and these made me reconsider whether I wanted to stay. But this time it's just a feeling that I don't want to associate with people that way for now.

For about a month, when I go to meetings I just don't feel what I used to feel there any more. All the unpleasant aspects (the hand-wringing, fearfulness and arguments from convenience) seem very large, while the things I like (the quiet meditation at the start and end of the meetings, the socializing before and after, the moral support between meetings) seem to have receded. It's not awful--just not my thing.

Of course I know that my NA friends would tell me that this "my disease talking." And honestly that's a big part of my turnoff. When I wrote earlier about 'arguments from convenience' this is a great example. I never liked it when people used 'denial' as a way to shut down any point they disagreed with. I never liked it when someone's 'disease' was brought up as the reason they balked at a particular suggestion or demand. This pushes me away all the more.

I'm kind of sad about this. NA was really important in my early recovery. And honestly, I'm still pretty early on. So I wish I could rely on NA now. But I think I've determined to at least take a break for a while. I really hope that I'll change my mind and I'll find a way to come back...maybe under some different set of goals and expectations.

Has anyone else had a feeling like this?
 
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Yup, and I also put years of effort into 12 step communities before realizing I needed to distance myself from them until I was more able to benefit - assumed I still would want to in the future.

What you wrote is also a very mature way to look at things. They say the only requirement is the desire to be sober, but that doesn't mean that they have a monopoly on sobriety, as we all know.

The good news is that these groups aren't going anywhere. Not in the least. They'll be there if you ever want to go back. And there are a lot of other great options out there in terms of lay peer support, recovery support, mental health peer support groups and wellness based approaches (I use the term lightly, but am thinking more like MBSR type stuff).

In any case, take a break and see how you feel. Take it day by day. A lot of the stuff they offer is spot on, and I have found such nuggets of wisdom I found useful to be MUCH more useful when I take them out of the context of 12 step work and bring them into my daily life. Anyone can do that. There is a lot of wisdom in the program, but it often gets covered up by the shit a lot of the member are working on (or not working on, rather).

Like I said, no one group holds a monopoly on that kind of stuff. I think you should look into a Goenka retreat simco :) They're intense as all hell, but super duper duper cheap. And you get some great instruction. A week of silence and following their strict regiment would almost certainly leave you feeling better off. Just an idea (there are a lot of other retreats that are far more accessible to the average American, they just tend to cost a bit more; Spirit Rock for instance is fucking awesome, but without a scholarship can be rather pricy compared to ATS or Goenka).

Or you could always travel to Myanmar and live as an ordained monk for 12 months ;)
 
Going to go back and try NA again. I have had some success in the past with AA but I was involved in the program in a recovery town full of halfway houses. The dogma, politics and clickeshness became to much and I realized I wasn't getting anything out of the meetings. Also the halfway houses held so much clout in the town that the lines between the two began to blur.

I will be attending NA in a less recovery house oriented city. Right now I need the support because I am not working due to my relapse so I have a lot of healing and free time on my hands. I want to take it slow but I also need some outside support. Kinda living in the middle of no where Orlando right now with only my partents for support.
 
^that can be a very tough place to be somnilicious. Keep you head up. Sounds like you're taking this obstacle and turning it into an opportunity. No one can ask for more than that :)
 
Yup, and I also put years of effort into 12 step communities before realizing I needed to distance myself from them until I was more able to benefit - assumed I still would want to in the future.

What you wrote is also a very mature way to look at things. They say the only requirement is the desire to be sober, but that doesn't mean that they have a monopoly on sobriety, as we all know.

The good news is that these groups aren't going anywhere. Not in the least. They'll be there if you ever want to go back. And there are a lot of other great options out there in terms of lay peer support, recovery support, mental health peer support groups and wellness based approaches (I use the term lightly, but am thinking more like MBSR type stuff).

In any case, take a break and see how you feel. Take it day by day. A lot of the stuff they offer is spot on, and I have found such nuggets of wisdom I found useful to be MUCH more useful when I take them out of the context of 12 step work and bring them into my daily life. Anyone can do that. There is a lot of wisdom in the program, but it often gets covered up by the shit a lot of the member are working on (or not working on, rather).

Like I said, no one group holds a monopoly on that kind of stuff. I think you should look into a Goenka retreat simco :) They're intense as all hell, but super duper duper cheap. And you get some great instruction. A week of silence and following their strict regiment would almost certainly leave you feeling better off. Just an idea (there are a lot of other retreats that are far more accessible to the average American, they just tend to cost a bit more; Spirit Rock for instance is fucking awesome, but without a scholarship can be rather pricy compared to ATS or Goenka).

Or you could always travel to Myanmar and live as an ordained monk for 12 months ;)

Interesting idea, TPD. I hadn't thought of such a thing...at least not since I did a 3-day silent Zen retreat when I turned 30 (a looooooong time ago). I'm going to check out Goenka.
 
Going to go back and try NA again. I have had some success in the past with AA but I was involved in the program in a recovery town full of halfway houses. The dogma, politics and clickeshness became to much and I realized I wasn't getting anything out of the meetings. Also the halfway houses held so much clout in the town that the lines between the two began to blur.

I will be attending NA in a less recovery house oriented city. Right now I need the support because I am not working due to my relapse so I have a lot of healing and free time on my hands. I want to take it slow but I also need some outside support. Kinda living in the middle of no where Orlando right now with only my partents for support.

Interesting perspective, Somni. I PM'd you my phone number - you are welcome to call me anytime, just text first so I'll know who it is and pick up the phone. As I continue to grow as a "clean" person, I started thinking yesterday about how damaging 12 step can be for the person walking in off the street on day one or even day zero. So many people are so full of shit, but (speaking only for myself) it takes some clean time to figure out what's bullshit and what isn't. And, (again, I'm speaking only for myself) it's easy for a newcomer to glom onto someone who's completely full of it but manages to spew impressive sounding platitudes.

toothpastedog said:
Or you could always travel to Myanmar and live as an ordained monk for 12 months ;)
Hmm...that IS something to consider. I'm starting to daydream about doing the expat thing again.
 
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