12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[SkagKush]

"We strive for spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection" was always one of my favorite parts of 'How it Works', or the big book alone. If taken in the right way it can help a lending hand to making an individual always strive for their best. However, it could be used as a cop-out to make poor decisions.

 

[Sepher]

how about this twelve step list comprised without god or hp.

1. admitted that we had a problem with addiction and needed help to sort it out.
2.thought that with a little help we might be able to live without problems from our addiction.
3. decided to follow our hearts.
4. wrote down a list of all the bad shit we did and all the bad shit that was done to us.
5. In writing that list and telling another person we were forced to face the fact that all that stuff was real.
6, once we admitted to ourselves that all that stuff was real and told another person we received the natural psychological healing that comes when anyone has the courage to do this. got those things off our chest,realized that that stuff wasn't as big a deal as we made it out to be, took away that fear of someone finding out, relieved guilt and shame from us and anger towards others...
7. forgave ourselves and others
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11 continued to listen to and follow our hearts, and developed courage and confidence to believe in our hearts and actually went where it told us.
12. Having learned how to recover from addiction we helped others with their struggles.

Yup. Now that I could work with. Getting help with an addiction is in no way the same as turning yourself over completely to the care of something or someone else. The way you've rephrased it casts the addict in the active role, taking responsibility for their own condition and making active choices for themselves. I believe this is what AA members really do anyways, as per my previous post.

Ok, so the big problem is that many people seem to either hate everything about AA/NA, OR to love everything about it and feel it is THE only way to quit an addiction, when in reality it is not so black and white and it probably greatly depends on the specific group you attend and, obviously, on whether it's the right approach for you as an individual at that point in your life.

However, I do not like when people say it's the only way and say things like "you're not really clean/sober if you don't go to AA/NA," or, "using comfort meds to help alleviate withdrawals can't work for anyone and you're clearly NOT ready to quit if you want to use them and can't yet see that NA is the only true way to quit," or "you're guaranteed to relapse if you don't attend 12-step meetings," or "AA doesn't fail, except for those few people who are incapable of being honest with themselves," and so on - these are word for word things I have heard from AA/NA proponents, I'm not even exaggerating.

Yeah, it's the dogmatic approach I struggle with too. It is NOT the only path to recovery. There are many. The roads an addict might take to recovery are as individual as the addicts themselves. One size does not fit all. It can't, for we are not all the same.

I've heard all of the things you noted there at meetings too. People who take things from the Big Book that are clearly metaphors as if they are objective facts. I've heard people talking about their 'physical allergy' to alcohol and how they now understand why booze affects them like it does. LOLWUT? The context in which this phrase appears in the book makes it clear this is only an analogy but I've seen people ram it down other people's throats as though it's real, or use it to excuse their own behaviour. Rubbish. Dry drunks. WTF is a dry drunk? Two people both not had a drink for a year, one in AA working the steps, one not. AA members will tell you the first is properly sober cos s/he's had a 'spiritual experience', whatever that means, the other is dimissed as though their sobriety is in some way so inferior it can't even be considered sobriety at all, hence dry drunk. Straight nonsense! They are every bit as sober as each other. Where do they even get off with this shit, being disparaging and dismissive of someone's hard won achievement like this. It's bang out of order. 8)

 

[Get2Think]

I think AA/NA works but be prepared to go from your life revolving around drugs to your life revolving around AA. There is no middle ground and AA will literally have to become the focus point of your life for it to work. It's not something you can just come and go as you please, do some steps but not others, not get a sponsor, etc. It's a huge commitment and they are all about complete abstinence from alcohol and drugs, but they drink coffee and smoke cigarette's like fiends. It's all about the spiritual awakening and if that doesn't happen then your chances of success are slim. Also if your young like less than 30 your chances of success are very slim. I went to AA consistently for 6 months and in the end decided it wasn't for me because I didn't want my past to dictate my future. The whole idea of meeting everyday to tell strangers I'm an alcoholic and discuss our past and present just lost all appeal. The biggest reason I left AA was because I knew it was opiates and the hard stuff that brought me down, and that I was an addict, with an addicts mind. The alcohol was just a symptom of a brain which I felt needed self-medicating.

If your going to take a swing at AA be prepared to give your all and then some. The program is for hopeless people who do not stand a chance in hell of living semi-productive lives without out. It is a crutch. And I'd rather not think of myself of an alcoholic, let alone have everyone in my personal life know that as well. I have a lot of respect for the old timers of the program, and I think it can help a lot of people. But it is no miracle cure and it fails way way way more people then it saves. And there is not cure anyways. So what you end up doing is isolating from bars, parties, BBQ's, nightclubs, and instead making all your friends people from the program. The program becomes your life, not just a part of it. I'm 27 and I looked at the 50 years of living (God willing) I had ahead of me and realized I'd rather try and make it on my own with God's help and have the freedom to drink, use, if I choose to do so. Quiting AA felt like a huge weight being lifted off my shoulders and I still go occasionally and now because I still have so much to learn. I'm not the alcoholic Bill W. describes in the big book, I'm a dude with ADD and an addictive personality that likes to push things to the edge. But I've matured and changed a lot and now don't do that anymore, to still go to AA would prevent me from evolving as a human being. Now I take full responsibility for my actions and don't blame the wrongs I do on being an alcoholic/addict.

Just my 10 cents.

 

[SkagKush]

Also if your young like less than 30 your chances of success are very slim.

I could not disagree more. Getting clean and sober has nothing to do with age when your actually at the point for wanting to do it for yourself. Also, this comment could be very disconcerting for a lot of readers, so I thought I would point out this fact. Age is irrelevant, it's where you are on the path to wanting to be clean and sober.

 

[maniquan]

I'm 24, been a "drug addict" all my life. The first time I smoked weed at age 14 I knew I was in love. I was researching trip reports and chemical compositions on erowid before I ever took my first toke of reefer. I love drugs, I love altered states of reality and exploring experience. Around the age of 18 I began a torrid love affair with a bitch of a woman named heroin and its been quite a ride ever since. I'm currently in a halfway house and I attend NA meetings fairly regularly, have a sponsor and do steps. I've been in "recovery" before and like alot of us, couldn't get past the higher power bit, and the clanish/cultish attitude alot of members take to their lives and each other. Are you required to suspend logic sometimes in favor of some higher power that gives you the proverbial pat on the shoulder? Ya. All in all there are many holes in the 12 step programs and the people in them. But aren't we all defective? I hate when people in the rooms get all high and mighty but I also hate when actively using junkies try and tear them down for being human. I don't know If I'll stay clean from all chemicals for the rest of my life, in all honesty I probably won't. But I do know that I never want to go back to be a junky, back to not caring about myself and those I love. So just for today I'll practice the principles laid out in the NA literature to the best of my ability, try to help another drug addict regain some semblance of control in his/her life and hit my pillow clean tonight.

 

[maniquan]

BTW I am currently about six months clean and even though I still crave alcohol and drugs sometimes, I'm happier than I've ever been. Everyone here (I believe) can get clean and learn to live a better way. The point is to not judge each other. Whether your someone with a bad coke habit who is trying to just get back to smokin' a joint after work once in a while, or a hard-core tweaker that is trying to abstain from all drugs for the rest of your life. Whether or homeless or a millionaire, we share this common bond and that's what we need to focus on. Love is the only HP worth having IMO. Judging each other and saying "well your not doing this 100% the way its supposed to be done!" is not going to win anyone over to your way of thinking. I'm not talking about anyone specifically, just saying in general.

 

[neversickanymore]

I could not disagree more. Getting clean and sober has nothing to do with age when your actually at the point for wanting to do it for yourself. Also, this comment could be very disconcerting for a lot of readers, so I thought I would point out this fact. Age is irrelevant, it's where you are on the path to wanting to be clean and sober.

3/4's of my home group of NA is under thirty.. Seems to be working pretty good for allot of them. Four are under 20. makes me happy to see young people taking charge and turning their life around with so much of it left to live.

 

[PlesantlyOpiated42]

Do you think that you can make friends at NA? Bowling leagues etc......

Without a doubt. I've only been around the rooms for 2 weeks and the people there have been better friends to me than people I've known my whole life. The people there genuinely care about you and your well being, they want nothing more than to see you grow as a person and they will help you in any way possible because they know what its like to live on the dark side of life. I know for me personally that I would never stay clean without the program. I've tried countless times to quit on sheer will-power and I may have been able to last a few month long stretches but im always just waiting for a relapse to happen. Most people who rip on the program are just close minded and have problems with they're egos, I was one of those people and I had the hardest time with surrendering my will. I feel like a huge weights been lifted off my shoulders ever since I turned my will over to my HP because whenever things are in my hands shit always ends up getting way worse. Alot of people struggle with the HP subject but I know alot of people or big on "Faking it till you make it". My sponsor was one of those people he had no belief in a HP but as he worked the steps he started to gain a sense of spirituality. I think alot of people are turned off because of the spiritual side and they tend to think that they have to worship a God based off of a certain religion which is not true at all, it cleary says a God of YOUR understanding. I dont have a vision of some dude in the sky, I see God as a positive energy in my life. Another way to view your higher power is to see God as good orderly direction and just work on applying good behavior in your life.

 

[SkagKush]

^ I am glad you have had a positive experience in the rooms! Your thoughts on higher powers is very refreshing as well, and being an atheist myself I share the stand point.

 

[mrflowers00]

from what everyone in AA/NA has told me a higher power is only there to pray for strength and hope when you can't get ahold of someone else to help you do the same

 

[Marie1010]

I was in AA years ago in another state and had a good experience, I went back 2 years ago to my current city and had some bad experiences. For me, I know of other methods but I know many people who've stayed sober in AA so I'm not going to bash it. I just know it's not for me.

 

[Marie1010]

There are many ways to get sober, I'm not into AA but that is just me. Do what works for you! All I can say is that with me, I had an opiate problem, then a blow problem, then drank. It's different for everyone but for me, I always switch and it's always the same black hole I get into.

 

[PlesantlyOpiated42]

^ I am glad you have had a positive experience in the rooms! Your thoughts on higher powers is very refreshing as well, and being an atheist myself I share the stand point.

Thank you. Its been amazing, way better than I ever could have imagined! I came from a catholic background and I've always believed in God, but during my active addiction I lost all faith. Taking this view point has helped me tremendously, I feel so spiritually connected now, its truly amazing! They weren't joking that you will be able to comprehend the word serenity, my mind used to be all over the place. I just feel so relaxed and content now, just like I did when I was getting high, but its a lasting feeling not a temporary one that drugs brought to me.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I know for me personally that I would never stay clean without the program. I've tried countless times to quit on sheer will-power and I may have been able to last a few month long stretches but im always just waiting for a relapse to happen. Most people who rip on the program are just close minded and have problems with they're egos, I was one of those people and I had the hardest time with surrendering my will.

I feel like there is a false dichotomy between the only supposed options being AA/NA or trying to quit with no support and doing nothing but attempting to quit/stay clean through brute force of one's "willpower". In reality there are MANY options. And making broad ad hominem attack statements about people who are critical of AA/NA is not helpful and no better than people doing the same about people who love AA/NA.

 

[PlesantlyOpiated42]

I feel like there is a false dichotomy between the only supposed options being AA/NA or trying to quit with no support and doing nothing but attempting to quit/stay clean through brute force of one's "willpower". In reality there are MANY options. And making broad ad hominem attack statements about people who are critical of AA/NA is not helpful and no better than people doing the same about people who love AA/NA.

Where did I say that there were no other options? Theres plenty other recovery programs out there like SMART recovery, Celebrate recovery etc. No need to get offended, I wasnt attacking anyone and I never said everyone has those issues, I meant that most people that have ego problems aren't willing to try any sort of program because they think that they can beat it on there own, or that by admitting they need help means that you are a weak minded person. I was speaking from my experience, I wasnt saying those things are facts.

 

[Derschieber]

Get2Think...Is it really important that Alcohol will be a part of your future life? I get the impression you are determined to somehow drink in a moderated way in the future...am I understanding you right in this?
Personally I struggled desperately with drinking (crying in the mornings on hands and knees, pleading with God) for months (AA & rehab...long story), but there came a day when I realised I had not thought about drinking for several weeks...you know...like I suddenly became aware that for some weeks, as far as I knew, Alcohol did not even exist...this was over 10 years ago. These days, unlike AA philosophy, drinking a glass of whine holds no power over me...but it tastes like shit anyhow...I never drink it. Never even think of it...honestly it becomes totally irrelevant.
I hope and pray you will find this freedom, where drinking ethanol means absolutely nothing to you. Society and AA both tell us a big fat lie...that somehow drinking Ethanol is meaning-full...when in fact it's completely irrelevant.
Fight it nail and tooth.
Truly I wish you all the best.

 

[neversickanymore]

Get2Think...Is it really important that Alcohol will be a part of your future life? I get the impression you are determined to somehow drink in a moderated way in the future...am I understanding you right in this?
Personally I struggled desperately with drinking (crying in the mornings on hands and knees, pleading with God) for months (AA & rehab...long story), but there came a day when I realised I had not thought about drinking for several weeks...you know...like I suddenly became aware that for some weeks, as far as I knew, Alcohol did not even exist...this was over 10 years ago. These days, unlike AA philosophy, drinking a glass of whine holds no power over me...but it tastes like shit anyhow...I never drink it. Never even think of it...honestly it becomes totally irrelevant.
I hope and pray you will find this freedom, where drinking ethanol means absolutely nothing to you. Society and AA both tell us a big fat lie...that somehow drinking Ethanol is meaning-full...when in fact it's completely irrelevant.
Fight it nail and tooth.
Truly I wish you all the best.

So true!! Freedom from addiction lies in really honestly looking at what a substance does. addiction takes a snap shot and focuses on only how you feel just in that moment. When you look at how that substance make you feel the other 99.99% its really hard to stay in love!

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Where did I say that there were no other options? Theres plenty other recovery programs out there like SMART recovery, Celebrate recovery etc. No need to get offended, I wasnt attacking anyone and I never said everyone has those issues, I meant that most people that have ego problems aren't willing to try any sort of program because they think that they can beat it on there own, or that by admitting they need help means that you are a weak minded person. I was speaking from my experience, I wasnt saying those things are facts.

I didn't say you said that. I meant that in society there often seems to exist a false dichotomy between 12-step programs or nothing. I was just wondering if maybe you'd bought into that idea a little because you said you'd tried and failed at "sheer will-power" and wouldn't be able to stay clean without AA/NA.

I'm not offended . I just didn't think it was helpful to make the assumption that "Most people who rip on the program are just close minded and have problems with they're egos". You wouldn't like it if someone said something like that about "Most people who promote the program" right? Thanks for explaining your views more. It's nice to have civil discussion about these kinds of things.

Also another point is that there are also ways to recover from addiction outside of organized recovery programs. For example my support system is my doctor, my partner, my family/friends, self-help books, Bluelight, etc. But IME some people don't seem to support the idea of doing it outside of a structured recovery format like meetings or rehab, or think that it is impossible.

I agree with you that it's harmful to believe that admitting you need help means you are weak and I think that we do need help in some form in order to succeed. Just like life in general actually . We should all help each other more in my opinion.

 

[michael]

i think the steps are perfect for trying to get sober if you can get past the whole higher power thing

some things i have heard of people using as their higher power are nature itself, the universe, the sun, the environment in general.

i put in a call to a friend of mine who is a very active 12-stepper to ask him for some other examples of what atheists, agnostics, or people of an overly secular bent have used so as to try and provide more examples for anyone hung up on that aspect.

(a lightbulb? that's just friggin' ridiculous.)

 

[Serotonin101]

Im atheist and active in NA. Higher power to me is forces that make everything work. Basically science as a whole combined with chance and probability. Collectively I call it Fate (capital F like the G in God). What happens beyond my own actions will happen regardless if I like it or not. I refrain from using prayer as a word as its too closely tied to religion for me so I say "spiritual connection". It works for me. Some people use the fellowship or their homegroup as a higher power, or the basic text, the steps, met a Guy who used the serenity prayer as his. I used heroin as a higher power while in active addiction.

But yes, I am grateful for what NA has given me. No, it is not the only way for everyone, its a way that works for me though. Today I'm grateful to be humble. If any other atheists or agnostics are struggling with a higher power (or anyone is just curious about how atheists do recovery) feel free to PM me and I'll chat with you/inform/assist you the best I can.
22years old, clean for almost 15 months now.

Edit:
Remember other 12 step people that our fellowships are based on attraction rather than promotion. Please don't violate the 11th tradition. And don't bash others as we should be practicing principles before personalities, the 12th tradition.