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12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

I've been able to control my drinking flawlessly but I'm on suboxone. I set some rules when I turned 21 that I would never have more than one drink a day and never more than 3 days a week and haven't had a problem with it in the past 8 months. I haven't had a drink in almost 2 months because I havent felt like it, I might have a drink tonight just for fun, but never more than one.

probably the suboxone playing a role in it though.
 
^^ i found that while I was on methadone, I had no desire to drink heavy or often at all, a couple times I went a year without it with out even realizing it.. now that I am clean its really different, find myself craving it and haven't craved a drink in like a decade.. just something to think about if you ever get off the bupe..
 
What I've realized is that I was born with ADD which manifested itself into a disease of "more." Whether it was candy, hockey cards, or video games, the mental obsession was so great that I would often think about these things (they changed all the time). I enjoyed drugs because they became something I could obsess about. Marijuana in particular was my entire world during high school. Alcohol soon after. the trouble began when I started with the opiates.

What I've done is abuse drugs so many times, drink to excess and make bad decisions so many times, take my prescriptions improperly so many times. And I think the reason I truly believe that I will be able to enjoy alcohol responsibly is because I refuse to drink like an alcoholic under any circumstance. In the past I would walk into the liquor store, but an Old English, then proceed to the nearest bathroom on campus to chug it and ditch the bottle. Now instead of that, I go to the bar, have a couple, and listen to my body. I've found that usually after a couple pints I'm feeling really full, and although I know i'd feel more buzzed/tipsy if I had a 3rd, that is no longer the goal. The goal is to get more out of alcohol then it's got out of me, which I believe shows a level of maturity I've attained through hard work, making mistakes, and never giving up. Now that I worked out the root causes of my depression and realized why I was anxious/depress/unhappy, I don't self-medicate anymore. The most important thing I've learned is to never rely on any drug to lean on when I'm feeling down or depressed. I reached a place of maturity and love for myself where I no longer want to sabotage my own life messing around with hard drugs or acting like an alcoholic/addict. I know that I will always have an addictive personality, but instead of throwing in the towel and admitting I'm an alcoholic like AA wants me to. I'm finding balance in my life that is all about the grey area and moderation. Which in the past never would have been possible until I had a spiritual awakening which changed my heart and made me realize that I no longer want to screw myself over. Thats the best way I can describe it, and I did go to an AA meeting today and didn't feel even a tinge of guilt because I'm on my journey and I don't care if it doesn't look the same as the other people in the room.

Keep up the good work man! you sound like me... im 26, sort-of in liimbo with my drug usage. The past year i've been taking 2 week breaks (mostly from amphetamines/benzos) but its sort of tough. I'm about to have a mini-relapse today after a two week break we will see if its worth it at all
 
^^^ Re: alcohol, my drinking dwindled to zero while I was on teh Oxy, haven't had a drink in months.
 
Pleasantly Opiated.

You know what having slept on this I feel like this was an inapropriate thing for me to say. I know pleasantly is just trying to be straight forward and not sugar coat anything because he actually gives a shit. So pleasantly, I apologize for lashing out on you the way I did friend. You may be right, maybe my leaving AA was a huge mistake.

Its all good man, no worries. Like you said I was just trying to look out for you, I know how hard the struggle is and I would hate to see you go back to that shit, especially after all the hard work you've put in. Im not saying you're right or wrong about AA I just think that abstinence is the answer to recovery whether you're in a program or not, but thats just my experience.
 
^ Why thank you. TDS community continued to show me that this thread was necessary, and I was feeling very passionate about the healthy debate that could arise here.
 
i think the steps are perfect for trying to get sober if you can get past the whole higher power thing
 
^Which I can't. The whole concept is completely alien to me, that I require something external to myself, a something that may be completely imaginary with no basis in reality whatsoever to mystically heal me of my addiction. I am responsible for my addiction, noone else. I will equally be responsible for my recovery. I will own it myself, not attribute it to some nebulous, ill-defined higher power outside of myself. I find the very concept massively disempowering. It is my belief that even AA members are making rational choices for themselves and asserting their own power over their addictions, not that of the group, or some agency external to themselves, real or imagined. But that's just my opinion. I can't see inside other people's heads and I may well have missed some room for subtlety in being so dismissive of the whole higher power thing but on that alone I have to dismiss everything based on it so AA isn't for me. It's a purely philosophical sticking point.

I accept though it has a lot going for it, not least the sense of fellowship among others fighting the same fight you are and the real world support network that helps put in place, that's enormously valuable in its own right. Some of the steps, like taking a moral inventory of yourself, admitting your faults to yourself and others, making amends where you can, these are steps we will probably want to take, AA members or not. Those steps have definite value I think.
 
i think the steps are perfect for trying to get sober if you can get past the whole higher power thing

Nice topic to bring up, and thanks for the input. This subject brings a couple things to mind for me right off that bat. AA really helped me stay clean and sober this time around, so I took the suggestions and did what I could with finding a higher power. I have been atheist my whole life.

When it comes to people saying a lightbulb is their higher power because we don't undertand how electricity works, well I dont buy it. This is because we do understand how it works, and yes there is a group conscious at the factory, etc but it does not tie into the program. Mind you I have only heard of this and never met anyone with this belief.

Also, I think people forget that a higher power can be a group conscious, so that means it could be a group of people from the fellowship. Also it could be something like nature, or the universe.

Lastly, if you were religious going into the program it would make finding your HP much easier. Though, the program is spiritual and not religious, and finding a 'god' type HP to someone who was either atheist or agnostic could just be an addition to that persons program.
 
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I believe the steps are an important tool to be used against addiction. The part of our brains that get addicted and compells us against our cosciouse will to continue to use is the libmic system (http://its.sdsu.edu/multimedia/mathison/limbic/index.htm), in particular the hypothalamus. The limbic systemis the part of the brain that contains the dopamine rewards pathway, the part we have manipulated by the introduction of a chemical or behavior that causes dopamine release (rush). Once a rush is achieved everything about how it was achieved is recorded in the brain (triggers) and it is placed in a list order related to how much dopamine was released. The activities on the top of this list naturally are sex, eating, drinking water, ect... in other words all things that are necessary for you to live. AS an addict we have placed an action that may kill us on the top of the list of things that this part of the brain thinks is absolutely necessary for the continuation of life. Like it does for all other things it deems as necessary for the continuation of life it drives you to do them.. think about food.. If you are hungry this part of the brain will cause you to crave certain foods, feel uncomfortable or hungry, and if you have ever fasted it can cause some unpleasant emotions and the resulting thoughts...

Think about drug withdraw and its relation to this limbic system.. it controls, internal temperature, anyone who has ever had opiate withdraws remembers this system trying to drive them into using, the old blanket off freezing-one second later, blanket on roasting, Repeat-repeat.. sleep and wake cycles, again for opiates, getn sleep while kicking ha, not bloody likely. and it also controls emotions, yep.

This brings me to why i went into that above.. PAWS can be a period of turbulent emotion, By reprogramming the limbic system to think that taking that substance or performing that action is of the utmost importance it will bring out any and all of its weapons against you.. Including using the emotions it has in its control to influence your actual thought as well as mood. http://www.listofhumanemotions.com/humanemotions the human emotions are thought to be + Anger, Disgust, Fear, Happiness, Sadness, Surprise. With all these emotions at its finger tips and it goal beinf to make you use it would be addventagiuose if you where in some way able to take away some of its ammunition.. Many of the steps do just that..

So before i get into the steps think about this visciouse circle, I believe to be the spiral of a relapse as well as how much of additive thinking occurs.. First limbic system fires an emotion to try and get you to pick up.. lets say disgust a form of disgust lets say guilt.. you then feel guilt, this causes you to think things you are guilty about which causes more guilt, wich cause you to think about more things you are guilty about.. spiralling downward untill you think you cant deal and break and use.. (TLS-will use many emotions at once or in turns, amything to get u to use, because iot thinks you will die withpout it, and it can just make you flat out crave for the drug like a glass of water after days in the dessert, consumes your whole mind)

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.

This a confessional step or admitting our wrongs.. what does it do, it get rid of the guilt and guilty thoughts that the guilt emotion sent out by the limbic system uses as ammunition to push for relapse or drug use.

These steps are also designed at anger.. another emotion at its disposal.. for we also admitted all our resentments or anger at others. taking away more of the ammunition that the limbic uses to drive use.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.

Getting rid of more disgust with oneself as well as making sure not to accumulate more ammunition for the limbic to use in the spiral of relapse..

As far as the actual fellowship, I love the fact that it has helped so many, I hate the fact that it uses brain washing (not brain house keeping like the steps) and cultist control techniques.. my personal opinion is something like what I heard Space Firebird say.. it was something like.. If you need the fellowship in the begining then use it and buy in but as soon as you are able to regain comfortable control over your own will it might be time to head for the doors.. but better to be controlled buy a HP sobriety cult than drugs IMO. take what you need for as long as you need.

HP, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
the wisdom to know the difference.

and the ability to know when it right to move on.;)


EDIT: must not be time for me to move on just got back from a great meeting, most uncultish, relaxed, sober folk laphen and carrying on.. ha “If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do.” in other words even in aa/na...
be-the-change-sq.jpg
 
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I have never personal utilized NA, but I know of several members here that have gotten sober using NA. The concept of NA is using a higher power to get clean, whatever you may choose.

I'm sure it's a great place to meet and make friends! You already have 1 thing in common: getting and staying clean. I know personally I don't have anyone in my life who is dealing with addiction/trying to get clean. If I did, it would be great because I would have people to talk to about it. I don't talk to many friends/family members about my current recovery struggles right now simply because I pick and choose who I give information to based on trust. With NA, there's no "oh, hey, by the way I'm trying to overcome an addiction.." They will already know that about you- there's nothing to "confess" about in regards to addiction.
 
the most (arguably) important step is the 12th "having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs" helping others get sober will help keep you sober
 
I am responsible for my addiction, noone else. I will equally be responsible for my recovery. I will own it myself, not attribute it to some nebulous, ill-defined higher power outside of myself.

^
Love this %)
 
This is a great idea, and you'll have somewhere to direct people if they are arguing about 12-step programs in other threads where it's not on topic (probably part of the intention, lol).

I have some opinions! :)

Ok, so the big problem is that many people seem to either hate everything about AA/NA, OR to love everything about it and feel it is THE only way to quit an addiction, when in reality it is not so black and white and it probably greatly depends on the specific group you attend and, obviously, on whether it's the right approach for you as an individual at that point in your life.

However, I do not like when people say it's the only way and say things like "you're not really clean/sober if you don't go to AA/NA," or, "using comfort meds to help alleviate withdrawals can't work for anyone and you're clearly NOT ready to quit if you want to use them and can't yet see that NA is the only true way to quit," or "you're guaranteed to relapse if you don't attend 12-step meetings," or "AA doesn't fail, except for those few people who are incapable of being honest with themselves," and so on - these are word for word things I have heard from AA/NA proponents, I'm not even exagerating.

My personal experience with it was that NA did NOT help me and was in fact detrimental to my recovery. I did not agree with the views espoused (and this was in western Canada where meetings are less strict and religious than they are is in some parts of the US), which made it hard for me, and I met other addicts who invited me to do drugs with them after meetings. And we drank tons of coffee and ate sweets like donuts.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to take a stance for or against AA/NA or other similar programs, but maybe sharing my experiences and opinions can help others decide if it might be a good fit for them. I still recommend someone go to a meeting or 2 because you never know what it will be like at that meeting.

A lot of the general issues I have with it stem from the organization and I'm sure there are particular groups that take a looser or different approach than others, but it is analogous to a religion: if you are talking about an organized religion and you are discussing something that is one of the major tenants of the religion you are pretty much entitled to feel that way about the religion in general IMO, even if there are particular churches within that religion that you might not have a problem with that practice things a bit differently, if that makes sense? (not saying you have a right to judge/dislike someone merely because they practice that religion and find it valuable for them). Some issues I have are ingrained are with things ingrained in the AA/NA literature and belief-system. No you don't have to agree with them about everything in order to benefit from it, but it my experience and the experience of others I know it can be very difficult if you don't agree with them about everything, especially if you say you don't.


Some criticisms:

NA says: "Is Narcotic Anonymous for me? If you’re an addict, NA can help. It works." Period. No ifs about it. This is simply not accurate. It can only help the right kind of person and only if you really want that help and are open to receiving it in that format.

The 12 Steps.
The 12 Steps from AA/NA:
1. We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that
our lives had become unmanageable.
2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves
could restore us to sanity.
3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the
care of God [or our higher power] as we understood Him.
4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of
ourselves.
5. We admitted to God [or our higher power], to ourselves, and to another human
being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We were entirely ready to have God [or our higher power] remove all these defects
of character.
7. We humbly asked Him [or it] to remove our shortcomings.
8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became
willing to make amends to them all.
9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible,
except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. We continued to take personal inventory and when we were
wrong promptly admitted it.
11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our
conscious contact with God [or our higher power] as we understood Him, praying
only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry
that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,
we tried to carry this message to addicts, and to practice
these principles in all our affairs.
So I really have some personal problems with the 12 Steps themselves. One is the whole Christian-derived aspect. The meetings I went to used "higher power" instead of "God", but I still had a lot of trouble with this concept. For one, I am not a religious person and do not believe in a god or "higher power". I believe there might be a sort of energy of the universe or collective consciousness type thing, but I didn't see how relinquishing all my power to it and praying to it could free me from my addiction, and at the time that this was happening I was very averse to anything that felt like organized religion. One thing I still believe is that feeling powerless is a part of addiction and that feeling empowered has been a big part of what eventually enabled me to quit. In fact I think feeling powerless is one of the causes of my addiction in the first place.

The idea that harm reduction is meaningless and damaging and the only options are "clean/sober" or nothing. As though switching from injecting heroin to a low dose of Suboxone, or from smoking crack all day to smoking a joint of weed once a week is not an accomplishment and all that matters is the number of days you are 100% abstinent from all drugs/alcohol. Also the obsession with number of days clean. Also the idea that anyone who has ever been addicted to anything must avoid all drugs/alcohol, like someone who was only addicted to heroin and has never ever had any problem at all with alcohol can't have a glass of wine. These may just be MY perceptions of AA/NA, but I feel they seem pretty widespread.

The fact that AA/NA won't release details about their success rates yet implies that it has a very high rate of success (only releasing misleading statistics from surveys of a select group of its members).

The disease model of addiction. This is a whole other topic which I could write pages on, I think it has some good and bad aspects. I definitely don't believe in the character flaw / weak/terrible-human-being-whose-addiction-is-entirely-their-own-"fault" model of addiction, but to me NA felt like a combination of my least favourite aspects from both of those concepts.

Ok I'll stop for now, lol :)

EDIT: I am also interested in hearing feedback from people who attend AA/NA and respectfully disagree with any of my perceptions of it.
 
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NA? Does it work? Is it helpful? Good place to meet friends?
yes it works for many many people.. good place to meet people, but like in the rest of the world there are good and bad, but allot more good than bad! I would definitely recommend you check it out and give it a fair shake.. good luck and welcome to BL, and good luck with recovery.:D
 
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So I really have some personal problems with the 12 Steps themselves. One is the whole Christian-derived aspect. The meetings I went to used "higher power" instead of "God", but I still had a lot of trouble with this concept. For one, I am not a religious person and do not believe in a god or "higher power". I believe there might be a sort of energy of the universe or collective consciousness type thing, but I didn't see how relinquishing all my power to it and praying to it could free me from my addiction, and at the time that this was happening I was very averse to anything that felt like organized religion. One thing I still believe is that feeling powerless is a part of addiction and that feeling empowered has been a big part of what eventually enabled me to quit. In fact I think feeling powerless is one of the causes of my addiction in the first place.


how about this twelve step list comprised without god or hp.

1. admitted that we had a problem with addiction and needed help to sort it out.
2.thought that with a little help we might be able to live without problems from our addiction.
3. decided to follow our hearts.
4. wrote down a list of all the bad shit we did and all the bad shit that was done to us.
5. In writing that list and telling another person we were forced to face the fact that all that stuff was real.
6, once we admitted to ourselves that all that stuff was real and told another person we received the natural psychological healing that comes when anyone has the courage to do this. got those things off our chest,realized that that stuff wasn't as big a deal as we made it out to be, took away that fear of someone finding out, relieved guilt and shame from us and anger towards others...
7. forgave ourselves and others
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11 continued to listen to and follow our hearts, and developed courage and confidence to believe in our hearts and actually went where it told us.
12. Having learned how to recover from addiction we helped others with their struggles.
 
they also say at meetings that "none of us are perfect we strive for spiritual progress rather than perfection" God or a higher power is really only there for when you need something to rely on when we can't get ahold of someone else to bounce your probelm(s) off of
 
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