liver issues after very little use of kratom

[blight12]

I dont think this is such a big issue or surprise. With regards to any rec drug we need to expect health risks and plan for them.

Kratom has an amazing profile in terms of all its features combined and im glad it might have a downside like this since it confirms that the laws of nature have not been broken in this case resulting in the utter destruction of all humanity, and that the vital laws in terms of a balance of upsides and downsides is still in effect with regards to this substance asit should be like with everything else.

Unfortunately there is no perfect drug because that would be the end of us all. What goes up must come down and that also means what has XXX positive effects will also have XXX negative effects.

Drugs like many things in life should not be judged and dealt with in terms of absolute or singular conclusions on viability due to a single significant benefit or risk.

Rather they are like tools with multiple potential uses, risks and benefits. Getting the most out of anything is achieved by not accepting a single downside as the explanation or conclusion for avoidance or cessation. Instead its very likely possible that a practical acceptable method exists to mitigate any singular risk likely to manifest from a certain situation.

For example with Kratom the fact of liver concerns only means that those with liver disease or serious risks in this regard should avoid it but those with normal healthy ones can probably easily mitigate the risk and ensure absolute safety by monitoring liver function throughout a period of usage to determine the actual impact in reality or level of risk for themselves personally.

Its about weighing up the potential benefits of usage compared to the risk of following an effective monitoring process to analyze the health impact if any and determine if the benefits are worth the potential issues.

Usually its possible to ensure the benefit is always achieved and worth the risk due to the fact that you are actively monitoring for any issues and thus would be able to take action long before any risk would ever have the chance of coming into effect and causing real damage.

You can almost always ensure victory with proper planning and analysis. Dont accept defeat.

So basically to sum up what im saying is that if you be dissing my Kratom with lies about liver rot or anything else I will be very angry and caps will be busted into many asses and there shall be no forgiveness and zero mercy. Only pain.

 

[bpayne]

Wow!! Reading this is Kinda Scary for me..

I have been Taking Kratom Daily for Over a year.. and have gotten my tolerance to where I take as Much as 25-30 grams of varying Strains a Day..
Put it this way. I order and go through 100-150 grams EVERY week.. without Fail.. and on the Nights I dont' have it.. I drink up to 10-12 beers to get me to sleep.. that is only Once a week though.. and sometimes I drink 2-5 beers With the kratom.. But rarely.. Whenever I have Kratom I rarely take anything else at all period..

But anyways.. I have Never shown any signs of Jaundice or Liver problems in any way that I know of.. But Still .. .This is Worrying.. Really makes me want to Cut my usage WAY down.. or maybe even just switch back to Tramadol... Or maybe just say fuck it and Forget about the Opiodergic system altogether..
Either way Thanks for bringing this to my attention

 

[blight12]

^^ Exactly. The fact that you experienced no issues shouldnt be scary but should result in the opposite instead. Personally having liver issues already in the form of fatty liver i still never experienced anything worsening the effect from Kratom and I have raped the strongest extracts to the point of not being able to feel a thing from Kratom at all anymore at this point besides the high dose downsides, even using the best extract available.

 

[hatrix]

This seems to be an rather isolated incident. Not to say it can't or doesn't cause liver problems, but considering the sheer number of people who use kratom daily in very high doses, I wouldn't deem this incredibly uncommon.

 

[Itchyblanche]

Same. My friend had serious liver issues after only several doses. She is also on antidepressants, but does not drink much. The issues seem to be resolving. Doctors are calling it viral, although she is negative for any virus tested and her her blood work does not look "typical" of a virus.

Seems, like with many drugs, that this is probably an uncommon reaction, but very possible nonetheless.

 

[JustMyOpinion]

Same story here. Consumed about 9g kratom daily for two weeks to ease suboxone withdrawal. After a week I felt fine but my urine was dark orange. After waking up completely exhausted, and aware that dark urine is a sign of liver damage, I went to the ER. My ALT was also above 500, with other enzymes elevated as well. I went back to a GI doc five days later and am still awaiting results. I stopped taking Kratom immediately after visiting the ER, and have since experienced more fatigue as well as some nasty back and muscle pain, which I understand to be common with liver damage. Urine is slowly returning to normal but in general I feel bad, but not as bad as some who have posted.

My doc really didn't seem to care that Kratom might have caused the damage, he could tell from the liver panel and my medical history that the culprit was some medicine and the treatment would be based on lab results and an ultrasound, anyway. I personally think that is was the Kratom, but given the other medicines I was taking to ease the sub withdrawal I can't be sure. It does seem that most people self-reporting have similar liver enzyme levels, diagnosis of cholestasis and a fairly quick resolution of symptoms.

I am personally pissed that this happened to me because the Kratom was working very well and I felt I was returning to normal health after a grueling withdrawal from Suboxone. As someone else posted, the best way to manage this possibility is to not panic but monitor your liver function, especially for the first week or two. No need for blood exams, just stop taking it the moment your urine turns orange or you experience any of the other signs of liver problems. Fortunately, these cases seem to resolve quickly unless the person already has underlying liver problems. Many people have reported these symptoms and recovered without ever realizing their liver was troubling them. It is amazing the number of medications and herbs that can trigger liver problems, even some of the most common like ibuprofen and many mood stabilizers.

 

[arcarsenal]

Hate to bump old threads, but...

I posted earlier in this thread about my gf having had experienced and been hospitalized for presumably Kratom related liver issues.

Well. That was almost two years ago. She and I are no longer together, but still friends. She has now been on an anti-depressant for about a year, Lexapro, I believe. Other than that change, she still does not drink, take any other drugs (specifically APAP and other known liver fucker uppers), for the last year has occasionally consumed some opiates (none as an APAP blend).

Anyway, the point of me bumping this. She started to doubt the causative connection between her liver issues and kratom. So she got some, and used it a couple times over a week (I am not sure of the dose...).

Well, the liver symptoms have started returning. She stopped immediately, so hopefully it gets no worse.

But...if we had any doubt that the Kratom was the culprit, this is supporting evidence

I understand how some people don't want to hear about these instances because it "could" put Kratoms legal and safety status into doubt. But, aside from the potential for long term slow-paced chronic liver damage (which may be real), there are much greater dangers posed by "Kratom Denialists".

What I mean is, they have a tendency to "blame the victim". Like, oh, Kratom is perfectly safe, but YOUR body sucks. Kratom is safe, but you were asking for it (mixing it with a single glass of wine, for example, or forgetting that you took that Tylenol yesterday). Kratom is safe, you shouldn't have been wearing such a short skirt.

Like rape denialists who blame it on the woman for doing things that EVERYBODY does, Kratom denialists will insist on pointing out that one glass of alcohol as being the culprit (as if people who frequent these boards or use Kratom have never themselves mixed drugs) and then deny and "discredit" everything else that is said.

Here is the danger: Yes, this seems to happen to a small percentsge of people. But, the anecdotes are settling on a remarkably similar experience....not random and varied experiences of OD here and rashes there and seizures somewhere else and a touch of liver failure else where. All stories seem to be regressing to a single mean of experiences: the rapid dramatic onset of liver failure following consumption of Kratom at an amount or at a frequency that is shockingly minimal compared to what any experienced drug user would expect from virtually any other drug. And let's be honest, if they are getting posted in the forums, the complaining parties are, more likely than not, drug-experienced and not drug-naive.

So, the danger of denial is not that any reasonable person things that EVERYONE will all of a sudden fall victim to minor liver issues. The danger is that a SMALL and UNKNOWN group of people will RAPIDLY fall victim to potentially DEVASTATING liver damage/disease/failure. Small population, sure. But who the fuck cares when it can be your best friend or your girlfriend.

Its probably not a coincidence that there is no pattern of similar complaints for each other RC out there: it probably isn't an anomaly. It may be constrained to a small subset of the population, but its not an anomaly. The denialists will demand proof, and scoff when an injured person can't produce it. Of course. There will be no papers concerning population studies and toxicity until the data exists and the impetus to collect it. Absence of research does not prove that it does not exist. Abundance of anecdote suggests that it ought to be looked into. If it ought to be looked into, but does not yet exist, it is NOT the appropriate conclusion to continue to suggest that it is safe. The appropriate response is to advise caution and to inform people of WHAT to look for, should there be a problem. And then we can more safely let Western Medicine run its course and report its results. But we should not have to sacrifice our loved ones while waiting.

I'm not a hater. I have no political issue with Kratom, nor did I have a health issue. In fact, I probably will do it again. But I will NEVER, from here on out, naively recommend it to someone as safe without telling them what could happen, what to look out for, and what to do.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I personally have no doubt that kratom causes liver issues in a very small, select group of people. There's always gonna be those deniers with fanboys of certain drugs... I see it all the time. You warn somebody of a side-effect on a harm reduction board only to be ridiculed. This post above included, that now makes 3 cases where problems went away and came back once kratom was taken again. Good thing is that all reports happen to susceptible people within the first handful of uses, which to me has always suggested that certain people metabolize kratom improperly, perhaps lack a certain enzyme, (just a theory) and for these people kratom needs to be avoided.

For those who have been taking kratom long-term with no issue, there's no reason to expect that to change. I haven't read a single case (albeit kratom and liver damage has only been reported maybe 5 times) of someone developing liver issues after years of use. Also, many long term heavy users have had regular check-ups and tests to confirm no organ damage has been done and were healthy as can be. Due to unrelated health issues I myself have now been through 2 CT scans, 4 blood tests, just as many urine tests, and 2 chest X-ray's and my liver and kidneys are fine, I've been a multiple times daily user for about half a decade.

I honestly don't think this is that big of an issue to worry about to the average user, but more of a sign to look out for when indroducing yourself to kratom... it happens to a very small amount of people and always quickly reverses when kratom is stopped. If anyone is having right-upper quadrant pain, dark smelly urine, jaundice, or any other symptoms that suggest hepatic issues after consuming kratom stay calm, get checked up, and cease kratom use. All anecdote suggests you will make a full recovery, however that doesn't mean it's anything but a good idea to get you enzymes monitored by a doctor.

Kratom has killed nobody, but I won't be surprised if LE uses this small number of liver issues against it ie. "We must ban this drug with hallucinogenic effects commonly compared to cocaine and heroin because it will make your liver fail!". I don't have high hopes for the future of kratom now that it's gotten so popular, it's only a matter of time before the DEA bans this wonderful plant for the mistakes of a minority. (Reckless use and hospitalizations due to weiners who cry about their withdrawal, not health issues)

 

[wilfy1979]

I

I honestly don't think this is that big of an issue to worry about to the average user, but more of a sign to look out for when indroducing yourself to kratom... it happens to a very small amount of people and always quickly reverses when kratom is stopped. If anyone is having right-upper quadrant pain, dark smelly urine, jaundice, or any other symptoms that suggest hepatic issues after consuming kratom stay calm, get checked up, and cease kratom use. All anecdote suggests you will make a full recovery, however that doesn't mean it's anything but a good idea to get you enzymes monitored by a doctor.

Kratom has killed nobody, but I won't be surprised if LE uses this small number of liver issues against it ie. "We must ban this drug with hallucinogenic effects commonly compared to cocaine and heroin because it will make your liver fail!". I don't have high hopes for the future of kratom now that it's gotten so popular, it's only a matter of time before the DEA bans this wonderful plant for the mistakes of a minority. (Reckless use and hospitalizations due to weiners who cry about their withdrawal, not health issues)

Excellent post,

Its gonna happen to a few, but its not right to say this causes liver damage like paracetamol, and alcohol. You are one of a few people now i've read about online who use it everyday, and have done for years, i think its also probable, and this is important, as where they got the Kratom, maybe the poor girl or the few people with liver trouble got cheap and nasty shit? you never really know what someone can put in your purchase, anyway from what i've read the favourable side far outweighs the negative, and i know for a fact i do not want to use alcohol, so i'll keep on testing out this interesting herb..

 

[wilfy1979]

Same story here. Consumed about 9g kratom daily for two weeks to ease suboxone withdrawal. After a week I felt fine but my urine was dark orange. After waking up completely exhausted, and aware that dark urine is a sign of liver damage, I went to the ER. My ALT was also above 500, with other enzymes elevated as well. I went back to a GI doc five days later and am still awaiting results. I stopped taking Kratom immediately after visiting the ER, and have since experienced more fatigue as well as some nasty back and muscle pain, which I understand to be common with liver damage. Urine is slowly returning to normal but in general I feel bad, but not as bad as some who have posted.

My doc really didn't seem to care that Kratom might have caused the damage, he could tell from the liver panel and my medical history that the culprit was some medicine and the treatment would be based on lab results and an ultrasound, anyway. I personally think that is was the Kratom, but given the other medicines I was taking to ease the sub withdrawal I can't be sure. It does seem that most people self-reporting have similar liver enzyme levels, diagnosis of cholestasis and a fairly quick resolution of symptoms.

I am personally pissed that this happened to me because the Kratom was working very well and I felt I was returning to normal health after a grueling withdrawal from Suboxone. As someone else posted, the best way to manage this possibility is to not panic but monitor your liver function, especially for the first week or two. No need for blood exams, just stop taking it the moment your urine turns orange or you experience any of the other signs of liver problems. Fortunately, these cases seem to resolve quickly unless the person already has underlying liver problems. Many people have reported these symptoms and recovered without ever realizing their liver was troubling them. It is amazing the number of medications and herbs that can trigger liver problems, even some of the most common like ibuprofen and many mood stabilizers.

Suboxone can be fatal for the liver, maybe this bout of Kratom has tipped your already troubled liver over the edge?

 

[《Plasticity》]

Excellent post,

Its gonna happen to a few, but its not right to say this causes liver damage like paracetamol, and alcohol. You are one of a few people now i've read about online who use it everyday, and have done for years, I think its also probable, and this is important, as where they got the Kratom, maybe the poor girl or the few people with liver trouble got cheap and nasty shit? you never really know what someone can put in your purchase, anyway from what i've read the favourable side far outweighs the negative, and i know for a fact i do not want to use alcohol, so i'll keep on testing out this interesting herb..

A possibility, but statistically unlikely. Over the years we have had at least 5 cases of these liver issues clearly linked to their kratom use (starts shortly after taking kratom, goes away rapidly after it's stopped, and even coming back once kratom is taken again in all cases I've read of people trying it again), all with what appears to be the same diagnosis, intra-hepatic cholestasis, occuring within the first few weeks of use, spread over large periods of time so it's not like some sort of spike in liver issues occurring around the same time, suggesting the possibility of a "bad batch".

Aside from the fact that I see no reason for a vendor to lace their kratom with something that's likely to cause liver damage, nor can I think of an adulterant that would fit the bill for something that would cause these issues, if a bad batch was released onto the market we would have alot more cases than the small amount we have today, even taking into consideration that there's always gonna be people who don't go online to share their stories. A link to a particular vendor may also be made, as well as all cases occurring in a short period of time.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's not fair to say that kratom will without a doubt cause liver troubles when used heavily or for long periods of time, but it's obvious that kratom is causing these liver troubles in a very small sub-set of people. It's okay, this isn't a game changer or anything as kratom has a superb safety profile better than even the majority of OTC meds. All this really says is that kratom may be a bit harmful to a tiny amount of people and to be on the lookout for any of these symptoms. For the grand majority, as in what appears to be all but a handful, this is nothing to worry about. Kratom still has one of the best safety profiles of any drug I can think of... and I don't expect to see any deaths or overdoses anytime soon.

 

[CfZrx]

Kratom is safe if you use an eighth to a quarter teaspoon once in awhile. I've found that it elevates my blood pressure and could be fatal mixed with cannabis and Seroquel.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Just because something elevates BP that doesn't mean it will prove fatal, or that it's even dangerous. Being that no deaths have ever been reported from that combo you don't really have any basis to make that claim.

The majority of drugs raise blood pressure, and cannabis and kratom is one of the most popular and safest kratom combos... one I take daily. I have also taken a kratom/seroquel/cannabis combo after rolling on MDMA with no issues. Have you actually measured your blood pressure with a cuff while on the combo? Palpitations =/= hypertension.

 

[CfZrx]

I wouldn't want to try that combo again,lol --although I have since bought a bp cuff machine. Man I was on death's door that night recently though. I am tiptoeing back into my kratom stash again as I am tapering a morph habit and of course kratom gives great energy boost/mood relief during draining withdrawal. I reeeally wish I could find a sleepy strain

 

[CfZrx]

I realized that most of my kratom stash is superb for euphoria, it's only Maeng da (red vein) that makes me overstimulated in a bad tense way. 2nite Kali Kaya White Thai was bomb, as well as Red Thai....hey anybody else find Thai strains to be the best?

 

[wilfy1979]

I realized that most of my kratom stash is superb for euphoria, it's only Maeng da (red vein) that makes me overstimulated in a bad tense way. 2nite Kali Kaya White Thai was bomb, as well as Red Thai....hey anybody else find Thai strains to be the best?

I have had Super Indo, Bali green, Green Thai and Red Maeng Da, i think each on there own are ok, but sunday night i was sick, possibly because i decided to have it with Pepsi (don't do this) and that i mixed Green Thia, White Liang Teh Putih (LTP) NEVER AGAIN!

What i have done lately is, make loads of ginger and lemon tea, and stir in your Kratom as much as you can sometimes stir while you drink, this way it tastes ok, and you can drink it at a slower pace, i think people might be necking the stuff too fast, and are either being sick or getting a too intense high which goes as quick as it comes, the slow approach can last you 12 hours, like i did with some Red Maeng Da.

While i'm here can anyone confirm what Green Maley is like?, i read some reviews where a dude says 10gs is like a Codeine high, in fact the vendor has about 10 of 30 reviews saying that they will only buy this one..

 

[Crazyfrog]

I finally got my kraton white vein super strain , and all i got was juondice . True story. After 2 wewks using.

 

[cojonu]

Seems the individuals developing complications are compomised already. the girl friend, was a former drug user, thus her liver most likely had undetected damage the exacerbated using the Ketum, other individuals drank etc,

 

[MishaJones]

Acarsenal: how long did it take your GF to get back to normal after the itching? My BF is going through the exact thing right now and I was wondering.

 

[Forever Changes]

I took kratom daily for years and AFAIK my liver is fine. I was involved in the kratom community for years and never once heard anyone mention possible liver toxicity, so I am surprised to read this thread

as for the OP's assertion that Kava has been 'proven' to cause liver damage, I believe that's just a myth based on a few unreliable cases