• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention III

I guess a problem here is that there's no objective measure of psychoactive effects besides the subjective effects themselves. Anyway, might there be a neurochemical explanation for this increase in subjective sensitivity? Do dopamine receptors upregulate in response to being antagonized by antipsychotics?
 
Too weak... DXM... MeD have you ever looked at the IC50 for DXM at the NMDA site? It's 7.2mM and memantine is 0.5mM. Pretty much anything that binds to NMDA channels will bind to pretty much anything else under the sun before it even inhibits half the NMDA receptors. With that said, ketamine, ethanol, and any of the other ketamine related drugs will likely not have a beneficial effect due to their short durations and other mechanisms of action.

Epsilon, where did you find those data? According to those, one would need 15 times more DXM than memantine to achieve the same amount of inhibition at NMDA. DXM trip, anyone? :)

Not sure about 15-fold difference, but indeed, this study found, that while Memantine did reverse tolerance to Morphine antinociceptive effects at 10mg/kg in mice, Dextromethorphan failed. Although, 10mg/kg was enough to prevent development of tolerance. But this one showed a success at 30 mg/kg for tolerance reversal. It indicates that for this particular purpose, Memantine is at least three times stronger.
 
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I believe it - DXM itself is a pretty weak NMDA antagonist, in humans most of the NMDA block / dissociative fx come from its metabolism to DXO.
 
Anyone have an idea about whether St. John's Wort would affect the neurotoxicity of amphetamine?
 
I don't think we can tell; hyperforin/SJW is rather broad spectrum and poorly characterised as to its exact mode of action...

Though hyperforin & related cmpds are monoamine reuptake inhibitors. That might play a role.
 
Ok. I thought that the apparent MAOI activity of St. Johns combined with release, re-uptake, and weak MAOI activity of amphetamine would create such a situation, but I adhere to sekio.
 
Well recall that MAOIs should actually decrease the neurotoxicity of amphetamine, but that's irrelevant because SJW doesn't actually have significant MAOI properties. I was more concerned about the increased calcium influx through TRPC6/glutamate uptake inhibition causing increased excitotoxicity when microglia are activated... But as far as I can tell hyperforin doesn't affect excitotoxicity, which is weird. I guess I was hoping EA would pull some ridiculously complicated answer out of his ass about glia and electrochemical gradients and ion channel localization...

Edit: Wait a minute, I stand corrected, it appears hyperforin is NMDA antagonistic (I'm guessing downstream) and in some studies attenuated ischemic damage (which is a process where microglia damage neurons with glutamate and other shit just like amph neurotoxicity). Maybe it would be protective...
 
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Been doing a lot of reading up on amphetamine/meth neurotoxicity lately, but in my opinion I think ALCAR, Acetyl L-Carnitine, should be part of anyones amphetamine routine reason being that it has shown to be an excellent anti-oxidant at the mitochondrial level and that amphetamine neurotoxicity involves mitochondrial damage and acetly-l-carnintine has proven to reduce/elimintate neurotoxicty in amphetamine like substances... theres a study somewhere in that it not only prevented MDMA induced mitochondiral damage at doses where the control group displayed damage but also prevented serotonin depletion.

Another way it helps is due to increasing efficiency of lipid metabolism in mitochondria for energy and being an antioxidant, it coutneracted amp induced brain sugar imbalances and utilization... im going to try and find the study for this I had it today.

Either way, whether or not it makes a difference in terms of preventing/eliminating amphetamine neurotoxicity which in my opinion I think it looks good on paper and would love to see more studies on it, it seems like an excellent supplement all round.
 
I have a few questions for everyone here.

tolerance amelioration means removal of side effects from higher doses? does neurotoxicity mean lack of feeling of the effect?
Does neurotoxicity blockers also just mean it blocks effects or makes side effects enough to warrant lower doses as well? is this due to the possibly of the nature of reverse tolerance?

I read about higher concentrations of Da in mice or rats after withdrawal(they said such is an indicator for post cessation neurotoxicity since it could hydroxylate or atleast other metabolites create oxidative insults) But for example milkthisle is said to help prevent methamphetamine downregulation of dopamine and serotonin... does this mean increased neurotoxicity?
sources: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitst...d=58ABD9E6EF3D2446952E1CEB245E6588?sequence=1

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166432809006329
 
tolerance amelioration means removal of side effects from higher doses? does neurotoxicity mean lack of feeling of the effect?
Does neurotoxicity blockers also just mean it blocks effects or makes side effects enough to warrant lower doses as well? is this due to the possibly of the nature of reverse tolerance?

No, no, no, no. Tolerance amelioration = more drug effect from a 'standard' dose of drug, IE it does not lose efficacy as fast.
Neurotoxicity is not correlated with "how a drug feels", or whether it produces effects or not.
Most of these supplements are just sideshows, really, they don't actually interact with amphetamines in any direct way. They just bolster your body's antioxidant protection.

does this mean increased neurotoxicity?

No. It's not as simple as "more monoamines = more toxic".
 
I know I've been pretty absent here, but I'll post the paper I'm working on as soon as its done. #tryingformedschool #jesuschristbeinganRAsucks #cutforbieber
 
nice

I've been taking 500mg chelated mg a night and about 80mg dxm/week and it seems to be slowing down tolerance at least a fair bit


found these:
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/191/1/68.short (it just talks about tolerance to weight-loss but is still relevant)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299968900058

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/009130579090071O (the last sentence is of particular importance)

If something protects against lethality, then it also conceivably protects against neurotoxicity, no?

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00426033#page-1 (haloperidol)




off topic, but watch out drinkers...http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299974901691
 
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^^ Quite low relative to the dose range. I usually take it daily for sleep at 300mg since I have reasons to avoid the usual addictive sleep aids but still needed a strong one.

For those methamp break days I usually only need 150mg since by that point your body is so drained and tired, this dose is enough to kill the amps and bring on sleep. Higher doses i found to strong causing an uncomfortable scary sensation of falling unconscious in a bad way and you tend to fight it out of fear.

The dose of seroquel isn't too bad -- sure 25 mg can knock someone out who doesn't take it regularly, but it's not going to be occupying barely any d2 receptors at that dose. It isn't until you get to close to about 300 mg (if you weigh approx. 160 lbs or so -- all assuming that the data Astra-Zeneca provides on this question based on rat brains is actually generalizable to humans) that more than 50% of d2 receptors are occupied, and even then not for terribly long. I've often wondered about this, as I take 70mg Vyvanse daily (occasionally I take a second one though I usually pay for it tolerance-wise until my next break) and 200 mg seroquel every evening. I've noticed that when I titrate down to 100 mg, I get a week or two of the Vyvanse working better than normal, but invariably that stops and also I tend to get depressed which leads me to raise my dose to 200 mg, which for whatever reason always pulls me out of a depression within a couple of days and restores the efficacy of the vyvanse.

So, given what I know, what I suspect, and what I've experienced, I think its certainly plausible that the seroquel + the good solid rest are doing something to attenuate the down-regulation of d2 receptors that presumably underlies amphetamine tolerance. But on the other hand, if this were true, we would probably expect to see much larger doses of seroquel in people not taking amphetamines to cause the up regulation of dopamine receptors, and we know that seroquel fortunately tends not to do that unless you take a really high dose for a really long time -- fortunately because up regulation of dopamine receptors => tardive dyskinesia as I understand it. Perhaps the fact that the receptors are already in flux because of the amphetamine makes a difference, but it sure would be nice to have actual evidence. Seroquel does lots of other stuff too -- perhaps the 5ht3 antagonism is relevant (studies have shown under certain conditions selective 5ht3 antagonists like ondansetron can reverse sensitization and tolerance to methamphetamine).

The last plausible mechanism, at least based on my personal experiences with the medicine, is that perhaps it is less about 'tolerance' per se than some sort of acute depression related to coming down / withdrawing. I don't know about recreational doses, but I sure know that when I'm depressed, I can take my regular dose of vyvanse and then lay in bed all day, but when I'm not depressed that same dose is very effective. So perhaps the seroquel-sleep pattern pushes back against some kind of pro-depression effect, and that's the reason the stimulant works better the next time you take it. Difficult not to speculate here, as many of the neurobiological factors that are relevant here are beyond the scope of current science.

So really, the only thing I can say with real confidence is that I think it is plausible that the seroquel is helping make your subsequent dose more effective despite not taking as long of a break. But maybe some others who have insight about some of what I discussed above might be able to definitely rule out some of the tentative theories/ideas...
 
i think a lot of this is simply due to the ATP / Mg2+ complex. less magnesium ions means less 'freely' available ATP, and we all know ATP's significance in metabolism/life promotion.

in other words im postulating our body has the ability to return to 'equilibrium' before the amphetamine was introduced much more quickly than with a significant loss in available ATP.
 
I am spectre, do you mean increasing ATP levels would help reduce tolerance back... As in supplementing with creatine to increase ATP levels?
 
I seriously doubt ATP levels are the issue, as cells with ATP dysregulation problems will more often than not simply die...
 
im just suggesting the idea that magnesium chelates will provide easier access to 'viable' ATP. amphetamine use is going to increase bp, consume a substantial amount of ATP indirectly (leaving plenty of free Mg2+), which would then be excreted rather quickly (on amphetamine).

my thoughts were that adding more magnesium solubles promotes ATP/Mg2+ complex formation (or reformation if you will), making it easier for the cell to do (or continue to do) what it does.

i mean when you use amphetamine, youre kicking all metabolic processes in overdrive for a while, which is going to eat up ATP, and making it more difficult to retain homeostatic balance after each dose.
 
Amphetamine disrupts mitochondrial ETC complexes I, II-III, and IV at high doses triggering all kinds of things. As soon as my term paper is marked I'll post it here. Granted EA has been pretty damn busy lately so the paper isn't my optimal quality.
 
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