• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention III

Hey guys

Forget that part about Ibuprofen inducing drowsiness when taken with Dexamph I wrote earlier. Turns out my Dexamph Dose was just too low. 11mg per seving and it works quite fine now. I still feel like Ibuprofen rather decreases it's positive effects, but I'll have to try it a few more time with and without it...

For something completely different:
Have you heard about S-Adenosyl methionine (SAMe)? Some sources claim, it may be effective in treating some CNS disorders, as well as reduce Amph-Tolerance.
I'm kind of in a hurry, so I'll make this short. Only have the english wiki and one article as sources, not very scientific, I know.

Still I'd like to hear what the "pro's" take is on this ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Adenosyl_methionine#Oral_forms.2C_usage_and_adverse_effects

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1517/13543784.6.4.417
 
As for the NSAID's I'll hopefully post something on them soon, there is evidence that they can do more harm than good in some situations. Also, they did a rat study for curcumin that showed some interesting results. But, I have midterms to deal with first.
 
Therapeutic Adderall: Minimizing tolerance (and nootropics)

Hello BL. It's been a while. I've recently been diagnosed with Adult ADD, I skirted under the radar through my childhood and teens but I've suspected heavily for the last 3 years that I may have a pretty strong case of it and I'm like a walking checklist of untreated adult add symptoms. After I realized I probably had ADD I decided to say fuck it, I've dealt so far I don't need any help from the docs. But I want to get out on my own and be a successful adult, so even though I've made a lot of progress on my own I decided to seek help from my doctor. He prescribed me adderall, 10 mg. I've never used a non-caffeine stimulant (unless you count molly/AMT/2ci/MXE) The thing is that it works great. It makes me generally feel good (woo amphetamines), makes me more outgoing (which I desperately need) and helps me stay organized and productive. However, I realize that this won't last forever and I'll have to increase my doseage sooner than I'd like. I see potential here for a long term and sustainable "solution" but I need to make each dose count and keep my tolerance low.

With that in mind I googled and came across this helpful guide http://www.whatarenootropics.com/adderall-use-guide/ I've already started altering my diet to include more antioxidants and vegetables and I'm getting a magnesium supplement soon. The most interesting part to me though is the mention of sulbutiamine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulbutiamine It's a nootropic and theoretically should help mitigate the damage caused by amphetamine use. It increases the density of dopamine receptors, and much of the tolerance to amphetamines is due to the decreased sensitivity to dopamine because of excess floating around in the brain. Aside from that it's effects are very interesting to me. Also, has anyone had experience with adderall+piracetam? It seems highly recommend but I also stumbled across a thread on a nootropic discussion board that implies piracetam could potentially increase amphetamine tolerance more when taken together. I've taken piracetam in the past and found it beneficial but was too lazy to keep supplementing. If I'm going to be taking daily pills I figure I could got back to using it too.

Any input on the above or tips on how to minimize tolerance buildup and side effects are welcome.
 
Any input on the above or tips on how to minimize tolerance buildup and side effects are welcome.

The following threads in the advanced drug discussion regarding amphetamine neurotoxicity/tolerance prevention have plenty of valuable insight for your query:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...rotoxicity-and-Tolerance-Reduction-Prevention
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...oxicity-and-Tolerance-Reduction-Prevention-II
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...xicity-and-Tolerance-Reduction-Prevention-III
 
EDIT
IMO neurotoxicity stems from mostly sugar imbalance from anorexia
Ah well this is a bit of a convoluted statement. yes low blood sugar causes neurotoxicity but I think I improperly introduced it as a founding statement.
 
Can you restate your question??

Are you asking if amphetamines cause damage, and how??


You seem to already have found your answer, buddy....

Amphetamine supercharges the cerebral cortex, while the rest of your brain struggles to keep up with the instructions rapidly communicated from the cortex,


this rapid communication ensures those tissues maintain, but the unused areas of the brain dont adapt, the brain maintains a homeostasis by shifting weight and energy evenly throughout...........

After several months, your brain will start to shift to regain the control, which will never happen...

If were talking six months use, 100mgs a day MAX, i would doubt any brain damage would occur, especially with proper diet, exercise, and sleep....


When you start smoking meth, and losing sleep, thats when you really face brain damage, right now you are golden......
 
I guess my question is whether the permanent amphetamine tolerance people develop could possibly NOT indicate a below-baseline level of NE/DA activity. AKA are people with an amphetamine tolerance going to be dealing with a permanent decrease in executive functioning.

I honestly, unfortunately, don't see how these two phenomena could be seperable. It would also be nice to discuss mechanisms.

Loss of novelty? The first time you ride a roller coaster is going to feel a lot different than the 100th time you ride it, but no one questions whether riding roller coasters causes permanent changes to your brain. Perception is a really weird animal, just because the same dose of amphetamine doesn't "feel" the same as it did previously doesn't necessarily mean some gross neurochemical change has occurred.
 
Antipsychotics only antagonise dopamine receptors and specific ones, right? I guess they could aid in reducing desensitization/downregulation of receptors but cant see how it would help neurotoxicity.
 
Sorry guys - i know this is off topic, but a quick response (yes/no) would satisfy me on this one. Then i may start a new thread regarding my question if necessary...

In short - I'm gonna get a modafinil-generic soon. While i understand that it's method of action is not fully understood, it seems to be confirmed that it also increases glutamate release and diminishes GABA release.

Does that mean that it must presumably be conscidered neurotoxic, too - just as "bad" as amphetamines?

I mean, of course it makes sense that roughly the same precautionary measures (healthy diet/nutrition and enough sleep etc.) would apply to it. But I mean straight-out neurotoxicity as in long term damage?

EDIT: Nevermind, opened a new thread regarding this topic in the BDD, if anyone can provide answers, you are welcome to do it there:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/666201-Modafinil-Provigil-Neurotoxicity-and-Tolerance-reduction
 
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I was thinking about Topiramate as an adjunct to an anti-tolerance stack. This case report (Topiramate use in alprazolam addiction, page 265) provides some interesting insights:
"Topiramate is considered to enhance GABAergic activity,
antagonize AMPA/kainite-type glutamate receptors
and inhibit sodium channels, L- and N-type calcium
channels as well as CA-III and CA-IV isoenzymes of
carbonic anhydrase (Chengappa et al. 2001)."

In this case report, alprazolam dose was reduced from 6mg to 1.5. Each 25mg of Topiramate (added each 10 days) was able to reduce alprazolam dosage by 0.5mg increments.

This (study) discusses the use of anticonvulsant drugs in substance abuse and withdrawal.

Other interesting studies on Topiramate and addiction:
Topiramate for the treatment of methamphetamine addiction: a multi-center placebo-controlled trial.
"CONCLUSIONS:
  Topiramate does not appear to promote abstinence in methamphetamine users but can reduce the amount taken and reduce relapse rates in those who are already abstinent."


How to treat cocaine dependance? With amphetamine, of course! - Extended-release mixed amphetamine salts and topiramate for cocaine dependence: a randomized controlled trial.
RESULTS:
The overall proportion of participants who achieved 3 consecutive weeks of abstinence was larger in the extended-release mixed amphetamine salts and topiramate group (33.3%) than in placebo group (16.7%). There was a significant moderating effect of baseline total number of cocaine use days (Wald χ(2) = 3.75, df = 1, p = .05) on outcome, suggesting that the combination treatment was most effective for participants with a high baseline frequency of cocaine use.


Not so positive review study - Topiramate in the treatment of substance-related disorders: a critical review of the literature.
Topiramate is efficacious for the treatment of alcohol dependence, but side effects may limit widespread use. While topiramate's unique pharmacodynamic profile offers a promising theoretical rationale for use across multiple substance-related disorders, heterogeneity both across and within these disorders limits topiramate's broad applicability in treating substance-related disorders. Recommendations for future research include exploration of genetic variants for more targeted pharmacotherapies.

Effects of topiramate on methamphetamine-induced changes in attentional and perceptual-motor skills of cognition in recently abstinent methamphetamine-dependent individuals.
Topiramate's cognitive effects were mixed and rather paradoxical, with a tendency to improve attention and concentration both alone and in the presence of methamphetamine while worsening psychomotor retardation. No deleterious interaction occurred between topiramate and methamphetamine on any of these cognitive processes. While clinical studies with topiramate should prepare participants for possible psychomotor retardation, the cognitive effects profile observed would not likely present an important obstacle to compliance in motivated patients. Topiramate's complicated cognitive effects among methamphetamine addicts need more comprehensive examination. Hmmmmm....

Now, this is interesting - Effects of acute topiramate dosing on methamphetamine-induced subjective mood.
...topiramate appeared to accentuate the appreciation of methamphetamine-induced stimulation and euphoria significantly, but not craving or reinforcement. The experimental combination of topiramate and methamphetamine appeared to be safe and well tolerated, with few adverse events. Acute dosing with up to 200 mg topiramate appears to enhance, rather than attenuate, the positive subjective effects of methamphetamine.

So, definitely useful as an anti-addiction and euphoria/stimulation enhancing for METH.
Does it automatically mean tolerance/neurotoxicity reducing? Whaddya think?

--
 
Stumbled upon several anecdotal reports on Vassopressin/Desmopressin being effective for reducing tolerance to amphetamine.

Started some research, but can't find any convincing data. Anyone has any info (studies, reports, experiences)?
 
I have always had this question on my mind but never found an answer.

Say you've built a tolerance to amphetamine that you need 30mg to feel anything at all, anything below that causes no psycological effect whatsoever and no side effects occur either (as in no appetite supression, no pupil dilation, jaw clenching, heart rate and blood pressure the same). Now, although there is that 30mg of amphetamine in your system and even though it is having no affect, does this mean that no dopamine/NE is being realeased at all or it is still being released, but the receptors have desensistized/downregulated to the point where no effect is occuring?

Ultimately my question here is, would a dose of amp that is not having ANY effect on a user still be causing neurotoxicity/receptor downregulation?
 
1: Steckert AV, Valvassori SS, Varela RB, Mina F, Resende WR, Bavaresco DV, Ornell F, Dal-Pizzol F, Quevedo J. Effects of sodium butyrate on oxidative stress and behavioral changes induced by administration of d-AMPH. Neurochem Int. 2013 Feb 11. doi:pii: S0197-0186(13)00040-5. 10.1016/j.neuint.2013.02.001. [Epub ahead of print] PubMed PMID: 23411414 1: Velázquez-Sánchez C,


García-Verdugo JM, Murga J, Canales JJ. The atypical dopamine transport inhibitor, JHW 007, prevents amphetamine-induced sensitization and synaptic reorganization within the nucleus accumbens. Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2013 Feb 4. doi:pii: S0278-5846(13)00018-3. 10.1016/j.pnpbp.2013.01.016. [Epub ahead of print] PubMed PMID: 23385166.
 
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I have always had this question on my mind but never found an answer.

Say you've built a tolerance to amphetamine that you need 30mg to feel anything at all, anything below that causes no psycological effect whatsoever and no side effects occur either (as in no appetite supression, no pupil dilation, jaw clenching, heart rate and blood pressure the same). Now, although there is that 30mg of amphetamine in your system and even though it is having no affect, does this mean that no dopamine/NE is being realeased at all or it is still being released, but the receptors have desensistized/downregulated to the point where no effect is occuring?

Ultimately my question here is, would a dose of amp that is not having ANY effect on a user still be causing neurotoxicity/receptor downregulation?

Probably not, if your sympathetic nerves were completely fried you'd be dead and your pupils would be fixed at a constant size. What's more likely is that whatever process that stimulated peripheral effects in your CNS has been down regulated. It's a pretty plastic process so you probably have nothing to worry about unless you're eating grams of dirty biker meth.

I can't rule out receptor downregulation, but it's likely a plastic mechanism beyond that.
 
i got a question guys,

i occasionally take a cap of mucuna pruriens, which contains l-dopa, 5 htp and afair even some dmt. i take it without any MAOI but it gives me a lil buzz.

now if i theoratically would do some adderal/ amphets at the same time, would that be dangerous ? is there such a thing as a dopamine syndrome ?
 
Well amphetamine produces ROS, L-DOPA produces ROS, and unregulated dopamine release can cause snake like uncontrollable writhing if dosed too high.

Probably a bad idea unless you know exactly what and how you're dosing.
 
okay!

thanks for the info.

ROS= oxidative stress i take it. ?


very interesting thread btw
 
I'm assuming alcohol has the potential to reduce amphetamine tolerance due to slight nmda antagonism?
 
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