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    Detox Home Remedy....imodium / anacid / tonic water 
    #1
    Hi...I'm new here...have a son who is addicted to heroin...trying to detox (in his room, as I write)...of all the suggestions to be found all over the web for helping with detox symptoms, he chose a mix of imodium (HUGE dosage) with an anacid & tonic water...according to him (and what I've been able to find online) the combination acts an opiate and creates a "high" similar to the heroin high, minimizing the physical pain, as well as, the emotional addiction...He also has access to xanax & weed to help him sleep....

    Has anyone had any experience with this imodium/anacid/tonic "cocktail"?.....Would appreciate your input, good or bad...

    Thanx
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    #2
    Bluelighter rhun's Avatar
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    I've never heard of this particular combo, though there are many taper recipes out there. I know the Thomas Recipe is common. I would say the main components of any detox kit should be a benzodiazepine and loperamide (immodium). He should also be on a high quality multivitamin and taking lots of potassium for the RLS among other things.

    It's very important that on top of physically detoxing that your son also deals with the issues that led him to use. If he does not, relapse is inevitable. Especially once PAWS sets in in.

    Cold turkey is not for everyone. In fact, when it comes to opiates most addicts who quit cold turkey will end up relapsing.. it's a big shock on your system. And you have to remember, his body has been flooded with artificial endorphins from using heroin... and his own endorphin receptors haven't been used in some time. For weeks and maybe months he's going to be endorphin deficient. Essentially, that means simple things like taking a walk, eating, playing a game are going to produce no natural endorphins so he will not get any enjoyment from them. It takes time, both of you will have to be patient.

    If quitting cold turkey does not work for whatever reason, I strongly suggest a buprenorphine or methadone taper.
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    #3
    Hi Rhun...thanx for your response....

    I had read about the Thomas recipe, but this combo was totally new to me, until he came in last night an told me that's what he was doing to help....He did come out of his room a few minutes ago, so I know he's alive (God, this is so friggin hard!...I realize it's harder for him, but I feel like I'm standing on eggshells, just waiting for ???.....I don't even know what...crying, screaming, him bolting out the door to hook up....)
    He took to the heroin as a self medication for depression (he's been suffering for a few years with depression, but didn't give any of the anti-depression meds a fair chance to work)..so, we know what we have to #1 get something to help with the immediate depression problems, (I have his therapist NP who can/will write scripts at the ready) #2 then he's got to work to get to the root of that problem...it''s gonna be a long road, but I am praying that this detox is the beginning of him working towards his future....

    I thought that the subox detox would be the best, but he didn't want to go that route and just sub one addiction for another...BUT, if he can't make it thru this, he might be willing to try it...(I have a doc lined up for that too, in case he hits a wall and wants to change his mind)
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    #4
    Bluelighter rhun's Avatar
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    If you have any questions or just want to talk, feel free to PM once you hit 50 posts and become a bluelighter. Just some back story on myself, since some of the things you've said about your son are familiar in some ways... I've been "depressed" as far back as I can remember. I just never really felt right and growing up I watched my friends and envied what they had, this unattainable normalcy and happiness. I've always felt very flat, nothing ever really made me happy but I was never really sad either. I slept for upwards of 16 hours a day as a teen. I never really thought I was actually depressed though because I never had suicidal thoughts though at age 11 I cut myself. At 14, I started using ecstasy and cocaine. I'd always known I would end up using drugs, I don't know why but it was this weird sense of fate I had growing up. Using, I felt alive for the first time. But after extended MDMA and crystal meth abuse my serotonin and dopamine levels were even more out of wack and I was worse than when I had started. When I turned 16 my regular doctor added up my symptoms and decided I was depressed and prescribed Zoloft. It was a nightmare, I was a zombie. But I was a sleepless zombie because he prescribed the Zoloft for energy and it made me feel cracked out. When I didn't take it I flipped out, I burnt myself over and over with cigarette butts. After 6 months I tapered off and never looked back. And for over a year, I was completely sober. Then I became a store manager for a restaurant chain the month I turned 18. During the same period I also suffered 2nd degree burns, an abscess on my tonsils from strep throat, and injured my back. I've used almost every drug out there, off the street and from the pharmacy, but for the first time I was using opiates daily. And I didn't feel high or cracked out or crazy, I felt normal... REALLY normal. I remember I cried from relief.

    The first time I quit opiates I was on over 80mgs of Oxycontin a day and I quit cold turkey. So I have the utmost sympathy for what you and your son are going through. Since turning 18 I haven't spoken to my own mother and my dad is also an opiate addict so neither of them were aware of my detox. But my boyfriend of 2 years lives with me and he helped me a lot. Opiate WD is a very real, physical pain. He's going to have aching muscles, RLS, diarrhea, nausea and maybe vomiting, cold sweats, runny nose and sneezing, head ache, insomnia, anxiety, and he's going to go from being extremely cold to burning up. I would go out and buy a heating pad for him to lie on when he's in bed, it will help with the chills and also the muscle aches. Hot baths and showers several times a day are key as well. But he needs to exercise, no getting around it. It will help with the insomnia and if he lies around too much it will make the muscle pain 10x worse to the point where he can't lie down. I would suggest taking the vitamins and supplements from the Thomas Recipe or another similar detox kit. Melatonin and valerian are calming and good for sleep though if they really don't work you can try advil PM, kava kava for anxiety as a benzo substitute, potassium for RLS, L-Tyrosine and a B complex will give him a lot more energy (don't start this till he's on day 3 or 4 he needs to rest for now), and antioxidants are good too. He also needs to eat. Nothing is going to taste good so he might as well eat lots of fruit and vegetables since they're going to help his body the most.

    As far as the depression... I would at least entertain the idea that he does not have depression. Many people with an endorphin deficiency are misdiagnosed as depressed since many doctors don't even know what an endorphin deficiency is yet. My dad and I both have it from birth but most opiate addicts have it short term after quitting opiates. Sounds like your son may have had it before and that's why self medicating with heroin was so effective. Endorphins are endogenous morphine, which means they're your body's own opiates basically. So when you take opiates you flood your body with artificial endorphins, which are actually identical to your own as far as your brain is concerned. So by taking an opiate, he is replacing something his body is deprived of. Like an anemic person craving meat because they're low on iron.

    Buprenorphine has actually been used successfully off label for depression. And methadone is an excellent mood stabilizer. My dad and I are currently both on methadone and it has saved both our lives, really. There's no "high." When I go in and get my dose I can't even tell that I took it. But I'm happy, functional, and doing really well.. I'm working full time again and I start school again in the spring. Methadone is a full agonist so I would suggest trying bupe first since it's only a partial agonist. I completely disagree that it's just switching one addiction for another.. unfortunately, there's a lot of stigma around methadone and by extension buprenorphine. But they allow people to live their lives again and work on the issues that lead them to use until they're ready to taper off. Once he's been in full WD for 24 hours he can start buprenorphine.

    Edit: How long has he been using heroin? and how much per day and what ROA (snorting, smoking, IV)? After quitting Oxycodone I was clean 3 months before relapsing. I was just endorphin deficient and had severe PAWS I didn't leave my house for weeks at a time, I couldn't even work. When I started using again the pill mill I got my Oxy from had been busted so I ended up using heroin. Due to my tolerance though I had to IV. That was the first time I really lost all control of my habit... it was awful. And it's what made me decide to go on methadone.
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    #5
    Hey Rhun....

    We've (dontcha just LUV how it's "WE", when if fact it should be HE) has made it 4 days, no heroin...and a little bit frightening, no real withdrawl symptoms....Using the ammodium/anti acid / benedryl / tonic water w quinine / weed / zannys / bananas / apples / food...veggie burger (did I mention he was a poor vegan for years?..eg. didn't have the funds/desire to eat vegan right, so he just ate crap..lots of french fries..and bananas..and soy milk...string beans...not much else..THAT has been a bone of contention between us, and I SWEAR that his diet was also effecting his mental/physical state!)...He is now getting closer to a vegetarian....

    He has spent ALOT of time sleeping...Like 8-10 hours at a clip...wakes groggy...smokes a bit...eats...hangs (even went out..I drove, but on Saturday he actually dressed and went into stores for his supplies)...and then goes back to sleep...

    I cannot believe that it would actually be this easy...nothing I have really read indicates that it could be...Of course the immediate thought is that he's got a stash and he is using, but no, I really don't think so (since this was 100+% HIS choice) and he hasn't been out without me since he did his last bag (Thursday morning) (in answer to your question, he was using IV...he says 2 to 4 bags daily)...so I must believe that the mix of the OTC drugs, combined with the week & zannys actually brought him thru...Wadda ya think????

    NOW, the focus has to shift to getting something that will imitate the "good" feeling he got from the heroin....something similair (or a combo of script drugs) that will make him feel (mentally) better, so he doesn't want to run back out to score...at least until we (there's that "we" thing again!) figure out what he needs long term (physc drugs or nutrition/therapy)...I dunno...I just think that we've turned a corner (although I do worry about when this all ends...he says he's halfing the immod et al, daily, or skipping...if then he's gonna get hit with withdrawl symptoms...)...it's all just so confusing & emotionally taxing...

    Kudos to you for finding what you need and for staying with the methadone program, instead of heading back to the streets.....
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    #6
    sounds to me, like he took the antacid and tonic water to 'potentiate' the lopermide, and prolly attempt to make it cross the bbb to catch a tiny buzz and maybe feel better. but I could be totally off.
    People on this site have died from taking too much lopermide, I think it was 300mg (150/2mg pills) so please monitor how much he takes. good luck!!!!
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    #7
    detoxing was easy,with immodium ,staying clean is the hard part..... props for NOT going with methadone or bupe ,because coming off that is so long and drwn out its crazy
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    #8
    Bluelighter Mr.Scagnattie's Avatar
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    If he doesn't already know, make sure you warn your son that he can become dependent on the loperamide and coming off of that shit if that happens is a real bitch.

    I give you a lot of credit for sticking by your kid and helping him through this.. not all parents do.

    Once he does make it through the psychical withdrawal part, he's going to have to deal with PAWS... enhanced depression, anxiety, sweats, intense cravings and mood swings, etc... this phase can last a while after the acute period ends and is typically when most addicts relapse. He needs to remain vigilant if he really wants this.. and he's only going to get clean if he truly does want it for himself and himself alone. People forced to get sober rarely stay that way.

    I encourage you to check out The Dark Side, a great support forum for people that are struggling. You can also suggest your son come on and post himself with questions or if he needs advice, etc. It can be a great outlet.

    I wish you and your son the best of luck.
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    #9
    EDIT: I said father, I'm sorry I didn't see your screen name prior to posting this, looks like your his mom in that case, sorry! Same message applies

    Best of luck to your son, he has a long road ahead of him. My most upmost of well wishes are with you both.

    You've gotten some decent advice already, and sound like you have done enough research that you don't need much advice -- other than some reciprocation and reassurance you've received. So, I don't really have anything to add other than a reiteration of what another said already:

    Buprenorphine, being the "drug" in suboxone/subutex, is in fact used off-label for depression by some psychiatrists with great results. The positive side effect being that coincidental use of a full agonist provides no reward, no euphoria, no sense. As his father (and Iam in no way trying to suggest how you SHOULD interact with your son), but maybe you could... step up, as you have every right, to just plain out get him put on buprenorphine for his own good. One of those things that I would classify as many moves my parents made when I was growing up for my own good, even though I strongly disagreed at the time -- and now in retrospect as a successful 30 year old, APPRECIATE SO MUCH. This is the type of parent-decision turned no-alternative action that could be the very best thing for your son. He will appreciate it probably sooner than later, and you can sleep more soundly. Eventually, he may very well tell you as a grown adult that it was the best thing you ever did for him. It won't end there, though, as you'll have to be an active participant in seeing that he doses it as he should everyday. Perhaps for you to dispense, watching him take it and dissolve under his tongue. He is at HIGH risk for relapse. This is a way to prevent that, and to treat his depression while he seeks therapy. And that does not mean a psychiatrist, as they don't care to talk about anything other than what pill they're going to throw at you next. That's NOT to say that he won't need some traditional anti-depressant medication treatment. My wife is on Celexa as well as Abilify, ever since -- she's been a different person. Depression lifted, she sleeps SO much better, anxiety is nothing but a whisper. She switched from JUST Zoloft, which was not really doing anything at all in comparison. Just a subjective experience to relate.

    By the way, just FYI:
    Suboxone is name brand and also contains an opiate receptor antagonist known as Naloxone that is "meant" to deter abuse of a full agonist opiate/opioid (heroin all the way down to hydrocodone and codeine). This is, for lack of a better understanding, just a play on ignorance as it is the buprenorphine itself that blocks other opiates due to it's own pharmacology. The Naloxone, when used sublingually as directed, is "inert" (as is advertised), but even when injected -- the buprenorphine blocks even the Naloxone from binding to any receptors in the brain. So, IMO: it was a neat way to get a patent. But again, not be discouraged by that, as it is the buprenorphine itself that blocks all other full agonists. Just doing a little informing.
    Subutex is the brand name for the pill that contains ONLY buprenorphine and it is available as a generic, making the generic dirt cheap compared to suboxone. And by all means is the exact same thing after it enters the body as suboxone.

    It sounds like he's done a poor job of making his own decisions to this point regarding what he's decided to put into his body, so his choice to go cold turkey may very well be again a poor decision. Perhaps it's up to you as his father to make the tougher, wiser decision out of love and knowing what is best for the most possible positive long term prognosis.

    Then, sometime in the future, when he is at least a year old or maybe more - after he truly has gotten his life, priorities, goals, and motivation in check, he would know when the time would be right to taper down and remove himself from the medication. "Bupe" (as its referred to in short) can be tapered EASILY down to 2mgs and less (as low as .25mg without much discomfort), and can make this heroin withdrawal feel like a non-event (especially if it truly was no more difficult than you perceived it to be), albeit symptoms may last up to a week versus 3-4 days.
    Last edited by ReversiblePulpitis; 21-01-2013 at 23:34.
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    #10
    Bluelighter rhun's Avatar
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    Hey clemsmom, any updates?
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    #11
    Hi ya'll....It's 7 1/2 days today!!!....Got thru the wd (eg. immediate physical problems caused by withdrawl) surprizingly well with the ammod cocktail .....Now he's into the "miss the peak feeling" mental withdrawl....He & his friend did get some subox and are taking it super super sparingly (don't have exact mg's bug less than one eighth of a normal dose) only when absolutely necessary....He can't sleep and although he does have access to zanny's for sleep, he is hesitant to take them for fear of that addiction....so some weed & food and hopefully some sleep will come....Tomorrow he will be seeing his NP therapist for anti-depressant and a anti-depress booster pill....He had some success for depression with Prozac, so he's choosing to try that again....MY concern to get those into his system are just to help fight off the "I want the happy feeling" craving for the heroin...it's a long long road, and he's got much to work on and I have to realize that relapse is a strong possiblity...BUT, I think he's made a fantastic start & remain behind him to offer whatever support I can....I can help & I can advise, but ultimately it's all his decision to make..good or bad....

    I thank you all, once again, for your support...knowing that there are people here who have walked this path (waaaay more experienced & willing to share their ups & downs to help others is a wonderful thing!...
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    #12
    No offense, but the way that you "speak" regarding this, specifically your final post is not only un-mom like, but even more 'from the horses mouth-like"... the lingo you use are words and terms that a user would be much more familiar with.

    Also, your stance regarding your son's sobriety is quite aloof. its his decision good or bad? a mom would be praying for a committed positive outcome. Im sorry, but I gotta call B.S.

    You'll find that we here are VERY excepting of ANYONE, but also do not tolerance the "SWIM" type of perspective.

    If I'm totally wrong and you are his mom, and again

    And if I am totally wrong and you are his mom, first off - how old is he?
    If he is a minor, than YES you CAN control and make decisions for him that he must abide by.
    Even if he isn't, he is staying under your roof, and under your care. And regardless of age -- why wouldnt want you to, again, do whatever you can to make the RIGHT decisions for him since he has made nothing but WRONG decisions. The stance youre taking is very distant of his ultimate long term well being, and you are not taking responsibility during a time when you can help take responsibility for his life, as it is at stake. Now that he is over the acute stages and his tolerance is down, his next shot could kill him.
    im not trying to tell you how to parent, but Im putting myself in your son's shoes 10 years from now -- and I wouldve wanted my mom to see to it that I was put on suboxone until my head was on straight.
    And as a drug addict -- he has become a manipulator, meaning he will be good at convincing you he is otherwise ready to live legit when he is not.
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    #13
    Bluelighter rhun's Avatar
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    Clemsmom, if he's 7 days off now is NOT the time to be going on buprenorphine (suboxone/subutex). He's aready gotten through the tough part so why go on maintenance now? Bupe WDs are just has bad as heroin WDs and the physical WD can last for weeks and even months. If he's unable to stay clean and relapses, by all means consider bupe. But for now since he's already a week in just try and make it through without the bupe.

    He needs to address his issues and learn to live without the high. Trying to substitute something else for the heroin high is going to result in another addiction.. it's just the wrong way to go. Your intentions are good but this is NOT a good idea. He's just getting off heroin, why the urge to pump him full of drugs? Trying to solve this depression with a drug is what got him in this mess in the first place. Prozac, Subuxone, heroin... they are all drugs.

    If you want an antidepressant, try 5htp. It's natural and effective for many people. SSRIs work by slowing down the re-uptake of serotonin in the brain, so there is more seratonin in your brain at a time. 5htp works by increasing the amount of serotonin your body produces. You can also give him St. John's Wart for positive mood.

    I cannot stress this enough.. he does not need more drugs. He and you need to get away from this idea of turning to drugs to fix everything. Your son needs drug counseling. Also, healthy diet and exercise are key.
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    #14
    Rever.....

    I'm not sure what "from the horses mouth-like" you are referring to...and I'm really not sure what makes my post un-mom like....
    I am his mom...been his mom for 22 years since I gave birth to him...

    What is a SWIM prespective?....(is that like being a troll?)...

    He is not a minor (he's 22, going on 23)...he lives under my roof....He has a job and only once in the almost a year that he was using did he miss a day of work....his place of employment was sold and redone and the new bosses want him to continue to work for them at another location...he agreed (he does not want to be unemployed) BUT told them he needed a few weeks off...he hasn't had a vacation from the place in 2 years...that is what prompted him to do this NOW...

    As for making his decisions, please do clue me in as to how anyone can make decisions for another...His father & I (married many decades, living together, never split) COULD throw him out of the house if he continues to use (that is not totally off the table if we get to relapse) ..."the stance I am taking is very distant"???...I have no clue how you got that from my post...I'm here (I'm the one who set up the therapist appt & urged him to consider the anti-depressants)...and I'm willing to do what I can...But I CANNOT make the ultimate decsion for him...I CANNOT follow him around and watch his every move to ensure that he doesn't use again...It's HIS choice...and there is virtually no way around that!..

    Hell, if there was, I would chain him to a wall and force him to get clean (something I would have done months ago)...then I'd have him with me every waking hour to make sure he does the right thing...BUT, you can't do that....

    Maybe I'm missing something, so please come back and explain why you feel the way that you do, and how you think I'm failing as a mom..
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    #15
    Rhun:

    Thank you for the post bc it pointed out a glaringly missing piece of information from mine. Counseling.

    I understand your opinion and in a perfect world, I totally agree with you and it is the IDEAL situation.

    Now, for the real world:
    RELAPSE from cold turkey heroin is so high and it's not even funny. He probably hasn't even had the chance to really to LOSE anything worthwhile enough to create a disdain for the drug. Sucess stories are more likely to come from those who have lost a great deal, are wiser/older, and have grasp of the fact that their life here on earth is limited.

    Why wait for relapse?

    Get the kid on suboxone WHILE in therapy, address the issues behind the addiction WITHOUT risking relapse and or death! Suboxone technically may be "trading one for another", but I could form a line thousands deep that would love to give you a beating for or at least strongly disagree with that sentiment.

    Yes suboxone does not come without withdrawal, but its not worse as you suggest, by far. tapering can be near painless (again, many from here alone will attest) and done at the correct dosage, jumping off - while w/d lasthing slightly longer (few days) they are NOWHERE near as difficult.
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    #16
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    The fact that you called xanax zanies threw me off. I'm 22 and my mom would have the slightest clue wth xanax or a zanny is. I think thats what he is referring to and other things when he is saying "from the horses mouth"
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    #17
    rhun...I hear what you are saying about the subox...and believe me I feel the same way...Not only WHY go to the subox when you've gone 5 days (he used the subox at day 5) but also the controversy regarding the addiction with it...So many people with "it's wonderful & saved me" vs the "don't ever do it, it's a nightmare" conflicting ideas...BUT, it's a choice that he made (believe me pls, I am very leary of it leading to more and more and more subox and basically just swapping the heroin for subox)....

    I realize that he has to face his issues and work out his own problems....and until he really comes to terms with all that, he will be behind the 8 ball...and I do realize that the anti-depressants are drugs and that's a risk, BUT, right now I believe that the chemistry in the brain needs some reprogramming and perscription drugs, monitored by a nurse practicianer who is a therapist is an acceptable way to go...I beleive then can be used as tools to help his avoid relapse..tools to help him muster the strength to fight the cravings and desire to "feel good"...

    I am a zoloft user and have been on anti-depressants for years...They have worked wonders for me in keeping me stable...I had tried some of the natural remedies you suggest, but found them to be ineffective in my case...

    I also realize the need for drug counseling, diet & exercise...The counseling will be done by a counselor he had a two years ago who he connected with...exercise is well, hopefully, but not something I see him doing too much of, except walking...as for diet, well, that's a bit of a bone of contention between us...He has been living a Vegan lifestyle for a few years now..and NOT doing it very well...eg. eating crap & not suplimenting with proper vitimans & proteins...which I am convienced is part of his problem...so he has reajusted to eating vegetarian, which will introduce better, healther food choices....
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    #18
    See now...right here..in just two comment posts, are the conflicting subox ideals....Rhun says no drugs, stay to the natural remedies...& Rever says "get him on Subox asap"....BOTH good advice, but obviously a choice...
    In my son's case, he prefers NOT to go full blown subox script (I had a doc lined up and ready to lend him the BIG money for him to go that route if he needed or wanted it)...with the super small amount he is taking he feels it's best NOT to go the doc route...Side note: I am aware of the possibility that he's just lying and is conning me...but have nothing to prove him wrong at this point)...

    Ah, the "zannys" word was inappropriate for a mom to use?....Some previous employees & folks I know use zannys as a way of life...(all on scripts and yes, probably all addicted)...Personally, I do have a script...I find them to be helpful if I am super strung out and need to sleep (one 5mg pill will knock me out in 15 minutes and will stay in my system for days!!!...my 90 pill script will last me at least a year, maybe more....

    I am the mother of 3 adult men...I have been thru more than I really care to think about....paths that I NEVER would have thought I would have walked...BUT, I HAD to...and along the way I learned things...I learned to know what I can about drugs today, what's around, what's the latest "craze" and how to talk to them about avoiding them...I really never thought that any of them would go to the depths that my heroin son has...But I am open enough to have been here for him to come to me and tell me straight out what he was doing & how he wanted to get clean....Tooks MONTHS for him to finally take the leap, but it was open (NOT accepted, but a reality) for all those months....
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    #19
    Now, for the real world:
    RELAPSE from cold turkey heroin is so high and it's not even funny. He probably hasn't even had the chance to really to LOSE anything worthwhile enough to create a disdain for the drug. Sucess stories are more likely to come from those who have lost a great deal, are wiser/older, and have grasp of the fact that their life here on earth is limited.


    I can understand what you are saying....especially the realization of mortality....I used to drive like a maniac and only after I grew up and had children did I realize how precious/fragile life can be....In his case, other than his friends (who he does miss) he hasn't really lost anything of value...I am working a monetary angle, because for some odd reason, he has kept all the bags he used...He wants to gather them into one big bag and then look to see just how much in terms of the drug and then how much in terms of $$$ he wasted...

    Many many many years (ok, it was many decades ago) I was a coke user...Not every minute of every day..Not on work days, NEVER (cept one time that scared the crap outta me) AT work....One day I was at a store and found a lovely knockoff lazy boy recliner that I liked...it was $100...and I sat down and thought how nice this would be for my apartment..But, thought "I can't afford $100"...and then was an epiphany...I had blown $100 up my nose just the night before...At THAT was a MAJOR turning point for me....I went out shortly after and purchased a tech item that cost me $100 dollars...I used it and kept it in view to remind me of how foolish it was to blow that kind of $$ on blow...
    My favorite all time anti drug commercial was the screen with just a closeup of a nose...into nose range came a TV...up the nose it went...then a car...up the nose..then an airplane..up the nose...back in my day folks were losing everything to coke...families, houses, cars, everything for the next hit....
    I figure it might make a point if he gathers the bags, does the math and then realizes what he COULD have had if he didn't use....He still has most of his last paycheck and is seeing & enjoying having money, instead of trying to figure out how to divide his paycheck between gas money (to get to/fro work) and heroin...
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    #20
    How come I'm talking to myself now???
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Mass08 View Post
    The fact that you called xanax zanies threw me off. I'm 22 and my mom would have the slightest clue wth xanax or a zanny is. I think thats what he is referring to and other things when he is saying "from the horses mouth"
    EXACTLY the type of lingo and language I was talking about, thanks Mass08.

    My mother takes the occasional Xanax even, and would have NO idea what I was talking about if I said "zanny".
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    #22
    Bluelighter rhun's Avatar
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    ^ Just because she's actually in touch with modern drugs and isn't all from the stone ages calling marijuana "reefer" doesn't mean she's a troll. I talk to my dad about EVERYTHING. Shooting up, meth binges, crashing my boyfriends car on benzos... I don't really do crazy shit anymore but you get the picture. He's more knowledgeable on drugs than most BLers with the exception of some of the brains on ADD. And he knows a lot of the drug slang too. Not all parents base all their information on anti drug sites.

    I have to disagree with your point that people who have used heroin longer and have lost more are more likely to not relapse on heroin. The more you use the more fucked up your brain is going to be... a hardcore heroin addict is going to have nonexistent endorphin receptors and it could be years till they're producing endorphins naturally and actually feeling GOOD. So wtf is the point? Many of them will keep using till they die. My dad is facing that same dilemma... opiate addiction for over 10 yrs and doesn't know if he can even be normal without them. And even if he could, how many years would it take for his actual endorphins, not artificial endorphins created by opiates, to start working again.

    I've met a lot of bupe and methadone patients, NONE of them have ever told me their taper was painless. Same goes for BL. I'm not saying maintenance drugs are bad, I strongly support them. Methadone has made me functional again. But not everyone who is dependent on opiates should go on maintenance... for relatively new users it's better to have them try and get off completely before trying bupe or mdone and becoming dependent on it. And I think the whole swapping one addiction for another thing is a flawed argument. Physical dependence is different from addiction.

    Clemsmom, I'm not anti maintenance medication in the slightest. I'm currently on methadone. But the first time around I quit a huge Oxycontin habit cold turkey with benzos and a good detox kit. It was absolute hell and I only made it three months sober but I wish I had stuck it out once I got past the hard part. Because after a heroin habit and now methadone my brain is way more out of wack and it's going to be so much worse getting off methadone completely.. it will be years till I'm normal not months. What is normal anyway?

    I just don't think it's right to turn to drugs to fix problems caused BY drugs. If he's set on buprenorphine, okay. That's a decision only he can make. But he needs to do it right. Most doctors prescribe way too much bupe.. it's proven that a very slow dose is best. It needs to be a steady dose, going up and down is not good for an addict. Have him take 2mg every single day, no decreases or increases in less he'll still having WD symptoms.

    The only true cure is healthy habits and TIME. The receptors in his brain will normalize on their own.. personally I think getting to the point where you're not trying to get that quick fix and instant results through drugs but instead working and waiting for real results is a big step toward having a healthy mindset and recovery. Besides adding a bunch of drugs in the mix is just going to impede his growth and you really don't know they're going to fix everything.
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    #23
    Bluelighter phactor's Avatar
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    If he feels like he needs to go on Suboxone then he needs to do it via a doctor. Suboxone will give him time to establish healthy patterns. He is going to need some support in some form, counseling, meetings, treatment etc.

    I do hope he can nip this in the bud now. I sure wish I did when I was his age. Though I never really got into herion nor did I ever IV a substance, I still used opiates quite a bit. Suboxone helped me and I was able to slowly taper off of it. One thing that was difficult to accept was the fact that I could not use anything ever again. I relapsed with alcohol and quickly started drinking too much. Now I am at the point where I have to go back and get some outpatient treatment and am attending meetings again. I do wish I could take back all those years I wasted on drugs, but I cannot. I did somehow manage to function and get a college degree. I am employed so I have some things going for me. But, I know I wasted some of my potential. Oh well, nothing I cannot do in the future.

    Most important, was I had a supportive family that would not BS me. They called me out on my bullshit but they let me know they are here for me.
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    #24
    So idk how old this but I'm clean 8 days from black tar and 3 days clean from subutex..


    Today I took 60 mg with a third bottle of Canada Dry tonic water. Not much.


    Tomorrow is 182 mg with 2/3 bottle of Canada Dry tonic water. Previous tolerance to heroin was moderate 0.3 - 0.5 a day.

    Just posting cuz I want to let everyone know how this works out for me.. Wish me luck!! Post back tomorrow!
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawbloc View Post
    So idk how old this but I'm clean 8 days from black tar and 3 days clean from subutex..


    Today I took 60 mg with a third bottle of Canada Dry tonic water. Not much.


    Tomorrow is 182 mg with 2/3 bottle of Canada Dry tonic water. Previous tolerance to heroin was moderate 0.3 - 0.5 a day.

    Just posting cuz I want to let everyone know how this works out for me.. Wish me luck!! Post back tomorrow!
    Hope it went well for you .
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