Anyone here use Kratom daily? Any problems from this?

[truvision]

Hey Chrom, yea Im going to go to WM tomorrow just to make sure. That will at least calm my mind down so Im not constantly freaking out about it also and Ill report back. It might be good for others to know this also since many people are on alot of meds that might interact in ways they dont anticipate.

 

[pasha]

we gotta pay the piper at some point

Spot on^

I'm glad your taking the right steps to ensure your in good shape. Maybe a low dose benzodiazepine would be suitable to negate the stimulation, and help you cope with the mild-moderate withdrawal symptoms of kratom. I'm anxious to hear back on your blood pressure.

 

[truvision]

Hey DP,I havnt gotten that yet but I swear you know the study in Thailand where they say the peoples skin started darkening well, Im almost for sure Ive seen that a couple of times on my cheeks but it went away. You know whats weird.. I think I can come off tabs WAY EASIER than I can come off kratom and Im not just saying that. Ive done it time and time again and also my usual withdrawal aids like neurontin and clonidine also work with tabs but not near as well with the kratom.I keep hearing about how easy it is to come off of KRATOM but thats just not been so for me, but why my Dumb-A keeps going back to it I have no idea( prolly the accesability hhe). I pay hell quitting Kratom CT. I will HAVE to taper as I have never made it CT on Kratom and Ive done CT on tabs and even Heroin for petes sake( although that was a bit forced on me) but the kratom is just so weird. I tried to lie to myself and say it wasnt so but hey, thats the mind of addiction. Your right, and Im beginning to admit that Ive felt some bad effects to my overall well being and health in just in the short time Ive been on it. Good thing is when I get to that point of sickness and loathing I do it and Im there. I dont think Ill be going back to K when Im done, this time Im done for good.I think I feel the same about K as you do.

All you guys have also kinda helped me see the light!

 

[pasha]

If your having difficulty quitting opioids, may favorite withdrawal aid is 600 milligrams of pregabalin with alprazolam, diazepam, or clonazepam. It works much better than clonidine or gabapentin. I know you mentioned you couldn't tolerate pregabalin, but if I were you I would try and force myself since pregabalin is very potent and has a much more calming effect on the sympathetic nervous system.

 

[truvision]

Yea, I know that going to another opiod to get off another opiod is actually a really stupid solution.Ive even done the loperamide and got stuck on that, pretty much just been chasing my tail for nothing going in the opiate circles now. Man I mean its only like its 5 DAYS, and Ive been through it before so why do I fear it so bad??Ill be the first to admit that I am a VERY difficult case.The crazy issue with the pregablin is my doc wont give me that because shes sure that I had a mental breakdown from it. She wont give me benzos either because of my past history with addiction. I can get some benzos but probably only xanax(possibly valium not sure though) but after just one use of a xanax, I have rebound anxiety for five days afterwards. I do have about 50 neurontins laying around, lots of clonidine and vistiril if I need it.Even with the neurontin I can barely take enough of that for what I will need because I had to get off of that due to it inflaming my skin and hair follicles .. but I will still take it if I have to.

Ive also looked into other things that have been found to help withdrawals such as doxepin and zofran but my regular doc would only write me for 10 of them until I saw a gastro doc. They are also the low milligram and not enough for five days. Your right though, even though she suspects that the breakdown was from Lyrica (which was many years ago however), I would be more than willing to risk that again for just the 5 days of the worst withdrawal.Ive even thought of trying to order some pregablin online cause crap all I need is a few of them.I KNOW how good that stuff works and ur right, it would make it CAKE for me to come off Kratom. Might sound crazy, but considering that it would only be for five days I think it might be worth the risk.

Im going back to the doc on the 16th, if I can hang on till then and keep tapering.Ive been thinking of some other things that might help( Im sorry if you cant tell Im a woos when it come to withdrawal). I just dont know what to ask her for that I havnt already tried and dont wanna mix too much crap in the mix if you know what I mean.If I could just find something that I could tolerate well enough to take enough for my purposes Id be fine. Whatever I take I also make sure to run through the interactions checker just to be safe.Anyways, yea like I said my system is HELL to deal with and once I get clear of this I have learned my lesson good this time!!! Im gonna try to go to Walmart to day and take my BP and Ill report back....

 

[pasha]

Even though I can't tell you what to ask your doctor for, I would try and utilize the gabapentin if I were you.

600milligrams of pregabalin = 1800milligrams of gabapentin. Even at those numbers though, because pregabalin has a much better bioavailability with or without food and a slightly different mechanism of action, it would still be a more potent analgesic and anxiolytic.

If you were to take gabapentin, 50 tablets is more than enough to get by especially if you say you can get your hands on alprazolam (my preference for opioid withdrawal), or diazepam. When I take pregabalin for withdrawal I usually do 600 milligrams twice daily with 2 milligram alprazolam or clonazepam. So for you you should be doing between 1800-3600 (titrated slowly until you feel comfortable) daily in as many divided doses as possible with a benzodiazepine twice daily for optimum results. I would stay clear of the amytriptyline and save the clonidine for sleep.

The side effects your having with the gabapentin are widely reported and only in very rare cases do they not reverse upon cessation. I should also note that loperimide is not a withdrawal aid, in fact it serves to prolong withdrawals and has a potential for addiction and abuse.

 

[truvision]

Oh yea, your RIGHT ON about that. I think taking loperamide is one of the stupidest things a person can do because the withdrawals from that are MUCH WORSE IME. While not many people respond as bad as I do, how I got INTO this situation was by using loperamide to first get off of kratom hha yea I know.. and then I got MASSIVELY addicted to that, it was so bad that I got onto lortab for 5 days to get off of that( which btw, barely even touched the lope withdrawals) and then back to guess what ??? Yea,KRATOM8( Geez,I feel embarrassed to even admit that. Anyways, Im trying to get hold of some Lyrica in the meantime.Good thing is I have an update, I think I figured out what has been causing a majority of my problem. A few weeks ago I quit smoking and started on nicotine gum.. well because nicotine gum tends to stay in your body much longer than regular cigarettes and is a stimulant as well as the coffee that I was drinking I think thats what has been combining with the Kratom and raising my BP. Since I laid off the gum its not nearly as bad although I still can only seem to take one quarter teaspoon at a time without it happening. Just goes to show that there are many variables that make a drug safe or not.. time weve been on it, previous history and what else were taking it with!

 

[pasha]

I agree with you on the loperamide. My devasting experience with it is in the following thread:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/296086-Loperamide/page26

Even if you don't find pregabalin, follow my advice on the gabapentin and it should be smooth sailing. I was in the exact same boat as you except switch the lortabs for heroin and kratom for tramadol. Initially I tried the lopramide to get off the heroin, I did so succesfully only to find the loperamide withdrawals much worst, so I used the heroin the minimize the loperamide withdrawal, then i jumped from heroin to tramadol, and lastly to the pregabalin regimin with minimal discomfort.

Don't speculate on your blood pressure, just get it measured at the nearest pharmacy for free.

 

[truvision]

Oh wow its amazing what people get into with loperamide! Man I just had a whole post and did something and deleted it. Im def gonna read your thread. I have one on here too, hope I post this right but mine can be found here...

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...eramide-withdrawal?highlight=big+mess+created

Ill get back later to post what I was gonna say after I read ur thread... right now Im just in a odd state of feeling withdrawal cause I cant take much kratom and then also having a nastiness from the high BP feeling when I take the krtaom. Your right though time to stop making assumptions and go get it tested....

Oh yea I also take baclofen but Im kind of used to that but I guess I could also go up a bit higher with that as well just for a few days. If I cant find valium do you think it would be overkill to add a small amount of phenibut while on Baclofen?I just dont wanna overdo it but Ill be honest its kinda hard for me to over do anything while Im in withdrawal. I swear this kratom withdrawal feels way worse than the tabs and wish I had just withdrawaled off of tabs while I had the chance.I know my withdrawal aids will work with lortab withdrawal. Oh yea, btw Clonidine def doesnt mix with kratom.But by far I get you when you say the lope withdrawal was THE WORST.. at the very best PURE HELL!

 

[pasha]

As I told you any NRI is going to be competing for occupancy with clonidine. If your taking other medications such as baclofen, don't be afraid to share, this is a non judgmental forum aimed at harm reduction, so try and reveal everything from the get go.

Don't mix the phenibut and the baclofen, both are potent GABA-B agonists. Clinical studies show that baclofen is highly effective in curbing addiction to cocaine, alcohol, GHB, and heroin. The role of GABA-B is under investigated and under rated. Baclofen and gabapentin should do good for your withdrawal but I would still pursue a benzodiazepine if I were in your position.

I've seen your thread a while ago regarding loperamide addiction, unfortunately though a little too late.

Here is an old study from 2003 regarding baclofen and opioid depence, ill add more recent ones if I find them:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC293465/

One from 2008:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2710.2001.00325.x/abstract

Another one:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-244X/3/16

 

[truvision]

Hey, yea thanks for those studies thats reassuring for sure. The only thing I was afraid of is because I have also been wanting to taper off of the Baclofen as well and know how it can cause dependency I didnt want to go up too high on it for fear of then having to get off of it.Im currenlty at 30 mg a day but I doubt going up to 60mg for for 5 days and then titrating back however will pose much risk.

Wow I just took a look at your story and you really, really went through some kinda misery, I had no idea! Thats truly scary. I was taking lortabs through the lope withdrawals and could still feel it, it was bad. Cant imagine how it would have been CT! They didnt give you anything for the withdrawals at the hospital? Man its no wonder why addicts are so much more knowledgable at times than the docs (about many drugs at least).. we gotta find our OWN way out, cause as far as most docs, they know what they know and can at times be pretty close minded to things they havnt heard of.

For example, out of desperation my dumbA decided to tell my doc I was hooked on lope and she was like, huh? She asked a couple docs and they said they had never heard of anyone getting hooked on it.. same for kratom.. I came in her office and she finally pulled up a study about it on the computer. Shes since( of course) been furiously looking for a med to curb opiate cravings for me hhhe.Im sure she thought, holy crap anybody that gets hooked on diarea medicines got to have it BAD

I even asked her to prescribe Baclofen knowing it was used for withdrawals and cravings but she said shed never heard of it being used for that.. well theres a whole forum of people who do use it for that, but I guess Ill have to wait for her to find that out on her own or bring her those studies you showed me(hope she wont take offense to it, but hey thats what Ill do). In the meantime, I had my regular doc prescribe the Baclofen for me but when I get past this I might be cussing myself on that one cause Ive heard bacs a ***** to come off of too. I suppose thats why knowing too much can sometimes be a bad thing if you know what I mean.Like you know, Id be alot better now if I hadnt ever tried lope for withdrawal and KNOW you can second that motion as well!

 

[pasha]

Loperamide has a half life of 10.5 approximately but for some reason it stays active for about 3 days. I think someone needs to reinvestigate those figures because that's what initially caused my confusion, I would stop the loperamide and feel fine for a couple of days so I thought I was off the hook causing me no guilt in using it again. It wasn't after I got discharged from the hospital that withdrawals started creeping up on me.

Your right about the fact that baclofen has dependency issues as with any other GABA-B agonist (GHB, phenibut, alcohol). The good news however is you can taper fairly easily from it and use gabapentin for maybe a day once you stop. Hence why baclofen is first line treatment for alcoholics.

Doctors can be very judgemental sometimes and ignorant, the fact is though many of them are current alcohol and drug users, or even abusers. A doctor used to be a symbol of humility and noblility, now many of them aren't in it for the passion but rather the money, and worry only about protecting themselves from legal ramifications. Ideally the medical world should be a non judgmental environment in this day and age. However, that's not to say there aren't any good ones, just like everything in life there's a yin and yang. Currently the yin is dominant, that's not to say the yang won't prevail.

Lets keep our fingers crossed.

 

[truvision]

Yea so true man I will NEEEEEVER mess with loperamide again, not even for diahrea. See I got confused with the lope as well because of the half life and was initially taking it every day then realized because of the half life I was increasing my dose by taking it everyday.When I tried to fall back and take it every other day I then had no idea what dose I should begin tapering with and was in withdrawals all the time! There for a while I was taking about 21 of the things daily(I think lower than what you were taking but still more than enough to cause some bad problems). And yea,Loperamide withdrawals are NO joke. I would never reccomend anyone to do that. Like we now know,really the best way to get off an opiate is by a soothing non-opiate gaba-ergic. Another opiate will only prolong things, but hey I too have also learned that the hard way.

Sounds like youve been around the block a time or two just like I have and know about the medical system and all its flaws.Your right, Ive know that there are actually many addicts in the medical profession. Im actually going to school to be a drug/alcohol counselor but am putting that on hold for a while to take care of myself( see what I mean ur right hhe).If I could get myself straight I think I could really help people but just because we necesarily have the education and experience doesnt always mean we cant or wont relapse.Of course, I cant go in there being in the state I am now though.Thanks again for everything. You mind if I add you to my friends list?

 

[pasha]

You mind if I add you to my friends list?

^No problem at all.

If you want to be a drug and alcohol counselor, that could be equally as helpful as being a great doctor, but as you said not at the expense of an emotional and physical well being. Drug experience can be invaluable for any health profession, so it's good that you've chosen to utilize that to help people.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Good on ya, tru for pursuing addiction counseling. I finished an addiction counseling program but changed states before sitting for the certification exam and my new state's requirements are slightly different. I have worked with a lot of people in the field though so if you ever want to talk about the process or anything, shoot me a PM.

The state I was in initially (Illinois) is extremely adversarial to the harm reduction approach which is unfortunate (and pretty consistent throughout much of the country). A lot of people who could truly use help are denied that by judgmental abstinence-only practitioners and so the more people we can get who understand and can promote GOOD harm reduction practices, the more the field can progress for the better.

It's good that you're taking some time to get your shit straightened out before going further with the program. A girl I knew wasn't ready to live a truly sober life and ended up ODing on heroin and dying her second semester in. It's important not to make the classes themselves your recovery program, but when you get to a good place where you can begin moving forward, this education and career path can really lend itself to maintaining and strengthening your sobriety and well being.

 

[truvision]

Thanks guys both very good insight.I agree that it is a mistake to make the classes our therapy. For a long time I think I actually did made that mistake but have since realized the error of my ways. I have recently started going to counseling again myself.I had a good teacher that always said the greatest mistake that he ever saw people make was to use school as therapy, and that also every good counselor has their own counselor. No one ever reaches the pennacle of perfection, but we gotta be able to take the same advice we give our clients in order to truly grow ourselves. Canes- I'm gonna send you a Friend request also if you don't mind.

 

[Roseyrose]

I saw some of your other posts about loperamide and wanted to ask some questions as I'm in the thick of it with this evil drug. You switched to Kratom after 5 days on lortab, and how much Kratom did it take to fully get rid of the loperamide hell?
I can relate to a lot of your experience, actually, in that I am super sensitive to wd and have a psych degree to help me fixate on my mood and feelings lol. I would love to know how it all went. I'm so ready to be done!!
Rosey

 

[Bman2]

I've been taking kratom daily for 4-5 years. No bad effects really. I know a lot of other people who have been doing the same. I don't want to say it's as harmless as coffee, but it's just about as harmless as coffee. I do have really minor withdrawals from my daily use. But it is NOTHING compared to a real opiate withdrawal. If you use extracts daily, that could be a different story. But using 10-20g of bali daily for a LONG time hasn't caused me any real issues and is a fair trade off to the prescription medication thing.

 

[QUARE]

IME the biggest problem from taking Kratom daily is the constipation... The withdrawal is pretty mild compare to opioids.

 

[weekend addiction]

IME the biggest problem from taking Kratom daily is the constipation... The withdrawal is pretty mild compare to opioids.

Yep. The key to is to keep your doses lower so you can quit if and when you want to. I'm taking about 5 grams in the morning and two in the afternoon and that's been working the past few months. I used to experience nootropic effects. I used to feel more of a benefit. It helps some but not as much as the old days. Some one may find that their emotions are blunted similar to taking an anti-depressant. I also can't drink as much. My guess is that kratom alkaloids effect me all day and add to the effect of sedatives like booze.

It makes me need cigarettes less. Sometimes on kratom when it kicks in I'll crave a cig. but as a whole it lowers cravings and has helped me quit smoking. I don't recommend using kratom daily. But if your going to use something everyday...you could make worse choices. At night though I crave booze when it wears off and I can feel kind of down but like I said since I can't drink as much I don't which saves money. All and all the money I save from kratom reducing cravings is just enough to afford kratom. Its kinda funny.