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Opioids Info Please, Having Major Surgery with Massive Opiate Tolerance!!! Advice!!!

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dapocalypse

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Nov 6, 2012
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Hello All,

I have a massive opiate tolerance, between 200-450 milligrams of oxycodone or hydrocodone daily, normally isulfated or IV depending on what I have. I am having a major back surgery that is going to be extremely painful in a few weeks. My question is, will the anesthesia even work on me??? Like will I wake up during surgery or does the surgeon need notified??? As I really do not want to be labeled as a drug seeker as I am not seeking I just have massive tolerance and want the proper treatment. My worst fear is laying there awake paralyzed while they operate on me fully aware of what is going on. Is that even possible??? I have no clue. Anyone who has had surgery in the past while taking large amounts of opiates please comment with your experiences.
 
to answer you question, anesthesia is not always and opioid, so it is impossible to tell if you will be effected or not. however, sometimes fentanyl is used, but in doses to knock you out but not kill you. i don't think your tolerance matters when you are given fentanyl in quantities of milligrams. remember, a doses of fentanyl is usually around 20-100 micrograms. if that isnt enough to put you out, the anesthesiologist should be monitoring your breathing and wil probably give you more if you are still conscious. in addition, fent is usually given with a potent benzo like midazolam for surgery

however, sometimes ketamine and even propofol are used, which have very limited affinity for mu and opioid receptors so your tolerance shouldnt matter. it could be a handful of different drugs, i'd ask your doc what they will be using on you so you know for sure.

make sure you lower your dose significantly before surgery, like just enough to keep WD off. id say if you take usually 200mgs, take only 50-75mgs before you go into surgery. if you take your normal dose, you might OD and go into cardiac arrest. not fun..

and DO NOT SNORT APAP!! if you live in the states which i presume you do because hydrocodone isnt used much around the world except in the US, almost all preps of hydrocodone contain apap or and NSAID, if that is so, DO NOT SNORT YOUR HYDROCODONE, it is extremely damaging to your nose ad could cause serious complications/
 
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you need to tell the surgeon.
chronic pain patients with opiate tolerance much higher than
yours are operated on daily.
but the surgeon and anesthesiologist will need to know
every medication and drug you are on to keep you safe
and in as little pain as possible.
tell them the truth..that you're worried about your tolerance..
about the surgery, and pain after.
it's the only way for you to stop worrying.

just tell them.
 
^^ this is true, good point token. just tell your doc what's up...
 
OP, speak to your surgeon and be 100% honest about your tolerance. The anesthesiologist (or anaesthetist in you're in the UK) will need to know about your tolerance and usage of opioids. They will need to make changes and/or dosage adjustments.

Let them know if you're going to be taking drugs the day of the operation as well as life-threatening interactions could occur with the various drugs they'll use for anesthesia and the opiates you are taking daily. We can't tell you what's going to happen because we don't know what they'll give you for the operation. The anesthesiologist will be able to tell you what they're going to give you but it is very important they know about your usage and your high tolerance to opioids ahead of time.
 
Yes for your safety tell the all the people involved in your surgery everything there is to know about your medical history. good or bad
 
If you value your life, make sure that the anesthesiologist knows this before hand. Telling them the day of the surgery will be too late.
 
Hello Bluelight,

Apologies for the really long post, however this OP is facing an important decision. I am a new user, so I understand that you may want to take my opinion with a dash of salt. However I hope some of this information might help you to think about what you want to research further and about the questions you might want to ask your doctor(s).

In terms of being anaesthetised, I don't think you have much to worry about as anaesthesia is achieved using a multi-modal approach. This means that more than one type of receptor is targeted, not just your opioid receptors.

To anaesthetise a person, the anaesthetist (or anaesthesiologist in the U.S.) will inject you with an induction agent, typically propofol or thiopentone (I think this is called sodium pentothal in the U.S. - please correct me if not). These drugs target receptors other than the opioid receptors (probably GABA, although this is still not certain). In addition to this, a strong opioid, such as fentanyl, will usually be given. If the anaesthetist thinks you are not asleep enough after the first lot of drugs are given, then he/she will give you more until you are at the required depth, i.e. unresponsive to painful stimulation.

Information about how much induction agent(s) were needed to get you to sleep will be taken into account when deciding how much maintenance agent should be used to keep you asleep. So if a load of propofol and fentanyl were needed to anaesthetise you, then the anaesthetist will know that a larger dose maintenance agent will be needed in order to keep you asleep.

The most common method of maintaining anaesthesia is to continuously administer a vapour, such as isoflurane or sevoflurane, via the patient's breathing tube. These vapours have a rapid 'onset' and 'offset', which means they can be titrated (i.e. increased or decreased) against the patient's response very quickly and accurately. So if the anaesthetist thinks that you are not in a deep enough 'sleep' then the amount of vapour you are breathing can be increased very quickly in order to get you to the required depth. Sometimes, in special circumstances, a continuous infusion of propofol is used instead of a gas, however the principle of rapid titration against response is the same. Usually further doses of an opioid, such as fentanyl, will be given regularly or as a continuous infusion during surgery. There are also other drugs that can be given to keep you at the required depth of anaesthesia such as ketamine, clonidine and benzodiazepines (such as midazolam or lorazepam).

What I am trying to get across is that your anaesthetist will use other drugs alongside opioids and will keep a very tight control of your depth of anaesthesia. He/she will be able to respond very quickly to any signs that you are not at the required level of unconsciousness before you even approach the point where you would become aware or awake. This is called 'anaesthesia awareness' and is a very rare event.

If you are going to have any problems then I think they will occur during the post-operative period and will be caused by the fact that your high tolerance could mean that you need a greater dose of opioid drug than the average person in order to achieve adequate pain relief. Luckily for you, there exist many other drugs that can be used alongside opioids in order to boost their pain relieving effectiveness. This is usually known as drug 'synergy' and means that the action of both drugs when given together is greater than it would be if they were given separately (or 'greater than the sum of their parts').

Another technique that would be excellent for you would be 'Patient Controlled Analgesia', which allows you to control how much opioid pain killer you receive according to the level of pain you are experiencing. Wikipedia has a great article on this, just search 'Patient Controlled Analgesia'.

On the subject of whether you should tell your doctor(s) about your increased opioid tolerance - this is a difficult one and may depend upon how understanding they are. On the one hand, if you do tell them, then they will hopefully be able to take this into account and change your medication appropriately. However, if you do not have an understanding anaesthetist then you may be labelled as a 'drug seeker' and denied adequate pain relief. A decision such as this is obviously yours alone to make. However I was in a similar situation a few years ago when I required an emergency repair of a fractured clavicle. I opted not to tell any of the doctors and nurses about my opiate tolerance and everything worked out fine. However this decision was kind of forced upon me as I was a member of staff at the hospital, so I wasn't really in a position to risk my professional registration by admitting to being an opiate addict.

I apologise for the lack of references, however the information here is meant to help you decide what you want to research further and what you want to discuss with your doctor. I'm happy to point you in the direction of some reliable sources if you need more information.
 
I can understand your fear of not being properly put to sleep because I was halfway paralyzed once when I was in the hospital. I would be honest with the doctor, I've had surgery without the doctor knowing I was an addict and they said they had a really hard time waking me up plus my blood pressure was almost at a dangerously low level. I've told a doctor I was an addict and they used midazolam/propolol to put me to sleep. An anesthesiologist is trained about things like this and will know how to properly sedate you.
 
you really have to tell the doctor that you have a high opiate tolerance
 
Hello Bluelight,

Apologies for the really long post, however this OP is facing an important decision. I am a new user, so I understand that you may want to take my opinion with a dash of salt. However I hope some of this information might help you to think about what you want to research further and about the questions you might want to ask your doctor(s).

In terms of being anaesthetised, I don't think you have much to worry about as anaesthesia is achieved using a multi-modal approach. This means that more than one type of receptor is targeted, not just your opioid receptors.

To anaesthetise a person, the anaesthetist (or anaesthesiologist in the U.S.) will inject you with an induction agent, typically propofol or thiopentone (I think this is called sodium pentothal in the U.S. - please correct me if not). These drugs target receptors other than the opioid receptors (probably GABA, although this is still not certain). In addition to this, a strong opioid, such as fentanyl, will usually be given. If the anaesthetist thinks you are not asleep enough after the first lot of drugs are given, then he/she will give you more until you are at the required depth, i.e. unresponsive to painful stimulation.

Information about how much induction agent(s) were needed to get you to sleep will be taken into account when deciding how much maintenance agent should be used to keep you asleep. So if a load of propofol and fentanyl were needed to anaesthetise you, then the anaesthetist will know that a larger dose maintenance agent will be needed in order to keep you asleep.

The most common method of maintaining anaesthesia is to continuously administer a vapour, such as isoflurane or sevoflurane, via the patient's breathing tube. These vapours have a rapid 'onset' and 'offset', which means they can be titrated (i.e. increased or decreased) against the patient's response very quickly and accurately. So if the anaesthetist thinks that you are not in a deep enough 'sleep' then the amount of vapour you are breathing can be increased very quickly in order to get you to the required depth. Sometimes, in special circumstances, a continuous infusion of propofol is used instead of a gas, however the principle of rapid titration against response is the same. Usually further doses of an opioid, such as fentanyl, will be given regularly or as a continuous infusion during surgery. There are also other drugs that can be given to keep you at the required depth of anaesthesia such as ketamine, clonidine and benzodiazepines (such as midazolam or lorazepam).

What I am trying to get across is that your anaesthetist will use other drugs alongside opioids and will keep a very tight control of your depth of anaesthesia. He/she will be able to respond very quickly to any signs that you are not at the required level of unconsciousness before you even approach the point where you would become aware or awake. This is called 'anaesthesia awareness' and is a very rare event.

If you are going to have any problems then I think they will occur during the post-operative period and will be caused by the fact that your high tolerance could mean that you need a greater dose of opioid drug than the average person in order to achieve adequate pain relief. Luckily for you, there exist many other drugs that can be used alongside opioids in order to boost their pain relieving effectiveness. This is usually known as drug 'synergy' and means that the action of both drugs when given together is greater than it would be if they were given separately (or 'greater than the sum of their parts').

Another technique that would be excellent for you would be 'Patient Controlled Analgesia', which allows you to control how much opioid pain killer you receive according to the level of pain you are experiencing. Wikipedia has a great article on this, just search 'Patient Controlled Analgesia'.

On the subject of whether you should tell your doctor(s) about your increased opioid tolerance - this is a difficult one and may depend upon how understanding they are. On the one hand, if you do tell them, then they will hopefully be able to take this into account and change your medication appropriately. However, if you do not have an understanding anaesthetist then you may be labelled as a 'drug seeker' and denied adequate pain relief. A decision such as this is obviously yours alone to make. However I was in a similar situation a few years ago when I required an emergency repair of a fractured clavicle. I opted not to tell any of the doctors and nurses about my opiate tolerance and everything worked out fine. However this decision was kind of forced upon me as I was a member of staff at the hospital, so I wasn't really in a position to risk my professional registration by admitting to being an opiate addict.

I apologise for the lack of references, however the information here is meant to help you decide what you want to research further and what you want to discuss with your doctor. I'm happy to point you in the direction of some reliable sources if you need more information.


Just because things worked out for you, doesn't mean they will for everyone else, this is pretty dangerous advice to be giving out man. It's not drug seeking to tell the doctors you're heavily dependent on opioids. I mean come on, PCA isn't even an option DURING SURGERY, that's post-op.

When the patient is not responding to the large doses of drugs administered by the anesthesiologist, trust me, they do not just keep pumping you full of drugs, they will stop the whole damn procedure, it's happened to my friends. And yeah, anesthesiology is obviously not just pumping a person full of opioids, they use other drugs in combination (usually midazolam + fentanyl/pethidine). You really want to risk everything hoping that the midazolam will make up for a huge tolerance to the opioid? They do use other drugs, but they other drugs are not to control pain, it's to maintain unconsciousness and amnesia.

TL;DR, I think you're gave poor advice that should be disregarded. Yes, they use multiple drugs in anesthesiology, No, it's not a good idea to rely on that if you're extremely tolerant to the most important drug in the combination (the opioid). Why take that chance? This is a harm reduction focus forum. Reducing harm sometimes entails being honest with healthcare professionals when it matters.
 
I went into my first spinal fusion in 2011 having a massive heroin tolerance. While I was put on Pain Meds when I was told I needed surgery (and stopped the heroin about 6 weeks prior to surgery), I informed my Surgeon that I was being prescribed way more opiates then I actually was, and therefore everyone on the team knew I had a big tolerance and they were able to adjust and prepare for me.

Post-op when it took over 7 hours to get some level of pain relief, the Hospital decided to put me in a ketamine-induced coma for several days. When I woke up, I was in a much more comfortable level of pain and was discharged with 4 opiate prescriptions according to my pre-surgery tolerance and what happened to me post-op and after I was brought out of the coma.

When I started pain management several weeks later my Doctors treated me with dignity and respect even with an enormous tolerance level. If I hadn't told the surgery team, I might have been in a world of hurt and could have jeopardized the entire operation.

Please, please be straight with your surgical team as they are there to ensure a safe, thorough procedure process and want to help you get comfortable post-op and they can't do that if they don't have a sense of your tolerance to opiates. If you are truly feeling like you can't be honest, then you need to man-up and get your habit down to a much more reasonable level or detox completely.
 
I recently had to visit the E.R. due to severe abdominal pain. Im a chronic pain patient, and when the time was appropriate (I waited til the Dr. said he was going to give me something pretty strong for my pain in my I.V.) I informed him of the medications I take-Fentanyl patch 100mcg and oxycodone IR approx 240mg/day. He said ( I will never forget these words, because it showed me how very important it is to be honest with doctors) "Thank you so much for telling me, because it does change things quite a bit.". He started me on 3mg IV Hydromorphone instead of the one mg he normally would have used to start. I ended up needing 4-5mg to get relief, but that type of dose would not have been possible had I not been honest with him.
My mother went through 3 years of pure hell due to colon cancer, many complicated surgeries following the original one, then finally a series of life threatening procedures when her poor bowel finally gave out and ruptured.
I'm sure you all can imagine the amount of drugs she was given during these times. After one surgery she was on a propofol drip in an induced coma for 3 weeks, and receiving at the same time big boluses (sp?) of fentanyl along with a fentanyl drip.
Finally after she had been healthy for awhile, they did surgery to separate scar tissue from her regular tissue in the ureter area (where she had a stent from it swelling shut due to the severe sepsis and infections in her abdomen).
We already knew that hydrocodone and oxycodone/APAP did her no good, as they had in the past. We had a talk with her surgeon before her surgery and told him our concerns of her building a tolerance. We specifically asked him if this would have any impact on the type or amount of anesthesia she may need.
The answer to that question was "Absolutely". Also, because we expressed our concerns before surgery, she was sent home with a pain killer that actually helped her pain significantly. There were times before the tolerance issue had occurred to us when she had surgery....and she was in agony at home afterward because of our ignorance.
It always has amazed me how little information a specialist (a urologist, for example) may have regarding a patient's previous surgeries, especially if the surgeries were not in his field of expertise.
I think it is our responsibility to make sure our Doctors have all necessary information. We can't count on communication between doctors.
Sorry for rambling, I just feel so strongly about the subject and have seen my mother go through so much hell... and I would have myself the other week had I not told my doctor of my drug use.
 
Thanks you all I just do not want to be treated as drug seeking and mess up my opiate scripting after the procedures but at the same time I need relief as bak surgery is painful
 
You won't. Just be honest instead of risking your life.
 
Trust me, post-operative pain after major back surgery is excruciating and unless you are dealing with heartless jerks, I wouldn't worry about being judged in terms of pain relief post-op.

In fact, briefing your surgical team ahead of time of your tolerance (whether you tell them the truth about how you got to that tolerance level is a different story and entirely up to you) will most likely give them a sense of comfort in terms of allowing them to prepare appropriately and avoid any serious mis-steps or confusion about how to deal with any complications.

Good luck, and feel free to PM me as I've been through 3 massive back surgeries in the last 16 months and can definitely identify with any feelings or questions you may have.
 
Absolutely agree with posters advocating being totally honest with the surgical team and pre-operative consultant. Although individual experiences will definitely vary, medical staff dealing with pre and post operative care are generally more concerned with the well-being of the patient and a positive outcome of the procedure than the doctors and care staff at General Practitioner level. IMHO anyone in this situation even considering not being entirely honest comes from bad experiences with GPs or other care professionals, and/or fears of being branded from this point on.
Did note that there was some posts mentioning telling the medical staff that their use or tolerance much higher than actually true, and no-one picked up on this. Honesty is best policy, you never know, overstating may screw up the anaesthetist's calculations of dosages.
 
For a surgery of this type, based on my experience, I am guessing you will first get a Midazolam shot. Followed by gas, Propafol, and Fentanyl.

I often think people can be overly-cautious on this site.

However, this is no time to play the "should I tell my doctor about my opiate addiction?" game.
 
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