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Using Ketamine for Opiate Cessation

my big question is simply which CYP2D6 group i belong to. the first time i took DXM, i remember hallucinating so hard i literally could not see. but that just doesn't happen now. IMO, DXM is the water of life, a poison that must be enzymatically changed into a drug that lets you see through time. does my body convert it almost instantly to DXO and thus the effect? i can't get anyone who might have the knowledge to comment.
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The resultant of DXM effects comes from both DXM and DXO. I have never taken DXO itself but from the few reports on Erowid I expect a lot of psychedelic/hallucinogenic properties may actually be attributed to DXM. One of the greatest trips that I had on DXM were when I re-dosed it over an hour into the experience (after some metabolites of DXM from the first dose inhibited CYP2D6 and thus inhibited the pathway to DXO to some degree). I'm sure DXM effects are essential to the deep and colourful CEVs and plain dissociative effects of DXO are somewhat secondary. I guess for this very reason even though DXM has a very dirty feel to it compared to ketamine, it's quite unique among dissociatives. After all there are dissociatives like diphenidine which have a lot less to offer and generally differ a lot in effects to their disadvantage. Thus whatever it is, sigma agonism and/or monoaminergic effects, it constitutes DXM's uniqueness.

I fully agree there's much more to life than just joy and pleasure, frankly speaking you learn a lot through painful experiences, so they are like a vital part of inner growth. And the key is indeed the harmony, the perfect balance, something that is actually quite difficult to come by easily given the way we're forced to live. It's no wonder it's so hard to convince any addict that taking drugs is bad for them and they should quit when all that regular therapies have to offer is the return to the every day nonsense. I used to think "why should I quit at all? why am I not supposed to be allowed to take anything I want?". How can the society expect the addicts to quit if most of them actually don't care at all. It took me years to realise that I had basically become a zombie ever trying to calm myself down more and more. And it wasn't until I painfully quit methadone and then benzodiazepines that I began sensing my life is really changing for better and I'm changing for better, however, I didn't decide to quit because I suddenly realised I want my old life back which I've always hated, it was kind of a subconscious process that have gradually progressed in the background, and then I finally realised that I'd always known that something is wrong with the world around me and that's why I could never really fit, but I simply chose the wrong way of coping with it.
 
Umm, Methadone has 25 days of W/D agony. Especially if I was to do a 30 day detox off my 140mg dose, I would be in PAWS forever. I DON'T WANT TO JUST SWAP ONE DRUG FOR ANOTHER. At least my insurance covers my Methadone. Also, I am hooked on Klonopin/Xanax from my doctor.....but I quit cocaine 9 years ago...with no desire to go back. I am 45 with 3 kids. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis (which is how I got hooked on Opioids) panic attacks, and Epilepsy. My immune system is shot, and my only reason for iving is my kids, mom, and Christ.
 
Try to get memantine, really. It's a low-trapping (means no psychotomimetic effects, but protection against glutamate spikes, or so) NMDA antagonist with a wide therapeutic range - they say 20mg/d, but you can safely use 40mg/d, in studies acute doses were up to 60mg, erowid people have taken more. Someone survived 2g (don't do this, he was in coma for 10 days). And its half life is 60-100h resulting in a constant plasma level and build-up / slow taper, also it's additionally a moderate D2 agonist what further helps with withdrawal.

Can't say whether it works only for a part, but it's worth to try. It can save you from PAWS, take much of the withdrawal and even reverse tolerance.
Memantine, clonidine & maybe loperamide (regularly dosed!) are a very good and cheap way.

Take care because the tolerance reduction is real.
 
in my experience, the best NMDA antagonist for opioid withdrawal is by far pcp. I can smoke dust for a few days and FORGET to do opiates. I have not had this experience with extensive other use of NMDA ants.
 
Maybe this is dependent on the individual and needs further research. Would explain why all the results are so inconclusive when we have strong polymorphism or whatever occurring.

Cdin, what other NMDA antags did you try, for how long and what dose? PCP appears to be strong and long lasting. Maybe this has something to do with it.
 
at various times, with various habits i've used nitrous, DXM, memantine, ketamine, pcp, mxe, 3-meo-pcp, and last but certainly not least, ibogaine. Of those , nitrous and ket have too short a duration to be feasible. I mean, if you can IM 150mg of K every hour for 3 days, go for it, but ive tried and it worked out quite messily. MXE does not seem to relieve cravings nearly as much, at least for me, of the next, 3-meo is ok, but like MXE i find the stimulation too unbalanced with the relief - I end up using a downer to deal with it. PCP and ibogaine hcl are the only two things that have made me forget opiates, though note a pcp bender can become easily overstimulating too. It's hard to find a sweet spot, but it exists ;)
 
Speaking from experience ketamine does work for opiate withdrawal but is too short lived methadrone aka meow meow is really effective and as for the people saying what's the point taking one drug to replace another you obviously have no idea what a heroin withdrawal is like, if you don't want to go down that road lafixadine and lots of Valium is quite effective
 
A fair warning - in my experience DXM, I suppose any arylcyclohexanamine acting as an NMDA antagonist, brings back benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms, especially depersonalization/derealization and anxiety coming out of nowhere even at very low doses taken for a few days straight (low meaning therapeutic for cough). As much as it is indeed very useful when tapering off from bupe for example, if you're an ex-benzodiazepine addict, it becomes useless, unfortunately. I tried using it a few times to start tapering off and the result was the same, the higher the dose, the worse and faster it gets.
 
If ya ask me, memantine is the most underrated drug for opioid down-tapering and cessation. It has a multiple days long half life and unique kinetics at NMDA that are, even at 40mg per day and 60mg for acute days, by far less impairing. Additionally it's a dopamine agonist and anticholinergic, all features that wre helpful.

You probably don't need to taper up so slow as recommended but of course it comes with side effects (that I'd take any time for not going through opioid W/D. Most pronounced are a slight clouding of the mind, and constipation (again, a good one).

Just be sure to have it on 20-30mg over two weeks or so at least- in this period you should already be able to reduce the opioid or you'll get potentation.

Second part is clonidine in a decent dosage (depending on you, I took like 750mcg in multiple dosages). Remember to taper this one as well over some days, up and down. Makes a good sleeping aid at 150mcg before bedtime.

With that I got off AH-7921, oral dosage 150mg per day, almost painless. Didn't even touch the loperamide. It were just 3-4 days that I've slept and listened to TV then most was over and reduced clonidine and memantine.

The latter you probably need to take for 1-2 months at at least regular dose (20 mg) until the receptors adjusted.

Taper the memantine - slowly!! afterwards.

Ketamine has a quite strong stimulant component. In low doses I find it to increase anxiety that fades off with higher dosages.
 
alright my first thought was

would there then be a possibility of trading one addiction for another???

I mean ketamine is addictive its a fact

I'm just saying I'm not sure its the smartest Idea if you already have an addiction then you are extremely venerable to another addiction

-streetcow
 
adder said:
A fair warning - in my experience DXM, I suppose any arylcyclohexanamine acting as an NMDA antagonist, brings back benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms, especially depersonalization/derealization and anxiety coming out of nowhere even at very low doses taken for a few days straight (low meaning therapeutic for cough).
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A question related to DXM, NMDA antagonists and Benzo WD. Can Ibogaine help benzo WD or would it make it worst similarly to the expereince you mentioned with DXM and Benzos. Ibogaine has pretty large anti-addiction spectrum including with opiates, stims, nicotine, alcohol..etc.. Is there any study of Ibogaine and Benzos or even anecdotal experiences?
 
I have successfully used DXM and K to help with PAWS and tolerance. I find them extremely helpful in low doses after getting through the first week of acute WD's. The effects can last upwards of a week from just one dose. These only worked in combination with some type of therapeutic services. I never became addicted to the DXM or K and was able to really just stop and move on. I think K should be available as a first line treatment when trying to combat cravings and long term protracted WD's in a clinical setting.
 
Prescottdave said:
I have successfully used DXM and K to help with PAWS and tolerance. I find them extremely helpful in low doses after getting through the first week of acute WD's. The effects can last upwards of a week from just one dose. These only worked in combination with some type of therapeutic services. I never became addicted to the DXM or K and was able to really just stop and move on. I think K should be available as a first line treatment when trying to combat cravings and long term protracted WD's in a clinical setting.
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What kind of doses are you talking about? I am new to ketamine, but may have come into a gram, with the thinking it would be useful in helping me make the leap from .5 sub to no opiods/kratom at all, which is my goal.
 
Light doses per the dosing chart on Erowid. Make sure to reagent test the K. Ketamine is not a magic bullet to eliminate opioid WD's.

I found it more useful during a taper or after the acute detoxification phase had passed. The DXM doses were also very light. 75-150 mg's.

Jumping off .5 mg of bupe is not advisable. I would taper down to 0.25 mg every other day before stopping completely.
 
I didn't really read the thread, so this has probably been discussed, but no you can't use ketamine to get through WDs, I know from experience. Used IM abd then IV when IM effects started fading, eventually switched to snorting when the serious mind fucking I had been taking got to be too much.

Sure it can act as a good reprieve for a while(as in a few hours, maybe one whole night) but it takes much, much larger doses than usual to truly hole when in the throws of WD, and you can only keep the hole going for so long. High doses so keep you pretty comfortable for a while, but you are SO FUCKED UP, not a state I would want to be in for 12+ hours, in fact I came pretty damn close to completely losing my mind. If WDs are light then I am sure lower doses could help ease the physical symptoms and distract you from the mental, but even then you would still be bedridden and feel really nasty, and believe me ketamine isn't very enjoyable when in the middle of WDs. It doesn't stop your WDs, it just covers up the symptoms. I would say something more functional like MXE would actually be better than ketamine, supposed mu action be damned. And even then it can only take you so far, maybe it would work to get you over the hump on days 3-5.
 
It must be 2 decades ago since I looked at this. At the time, 'Detox 5', a UK-based institution (whose name says it all) was using ketamine. They don't any more, I notice. I'm also dubious that it's also listed in the UK governments Frank website. I'm all for giving people the most options to overcome any kind of dependence but I think it's important to state that 1 person is not a statistically significant figure. I think Adder is the best informed on the phenylcyclohexylamine class and he has given us some very important insights.
 
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