• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

⫸STICKY⫷ 3,4-methylenedioxy-N&PD SOCIAL THREAD v. 1

I'm sure people will have discovered the papers covering the exhaustive studies on the 1-aryl-cyclohexylamine class off NMDA antagonist/DRI class (Erowid has a vault on all of that stuff) so when UK law made the scaffold illegal, the only novel alternative looked at back in the 60s was a single small study on 1-(1,2-diphenylethyl)piperidine so that was the intended lead-compound to explore the class. So, the custom-synth people weren't fantastic and they sent 1-(1,2-diphenylethyl)pyrrolidine! Idiots. Well, there is a very important relationship between the position of 1-aryl & the lone-pair of the N: (107.5 is the best as seen in Dizocilpine) so we KNEW it wouldn't have NMDA activity but wanted to confirm that it had DRI activity (NMDA antagonism without DRI activity is generally not so euphoric). Well, only a slight surprise to discover that it was subjectively identical (as far as we could tell) to prolintane. A very smooth, very selective DRI). So as soon as they DID manage to provide the specified ligand, it was immediately put through the Eunoiapharmacopia crew (hello from OranheJuice) who... ate it, because the .HCl wasn't too water soluble! Anyway, apart from discovering that isophenidine is THE one to go for (MXE nice), it's not such an interesting find... but the fact that a second benzene ring acts as a bioisostere to an N-propyl certainly WAS. So we went this way:

1-(1,2-diphenylethyl)pyrrolidine - not TOO potent, really smooth. I liked it a lot but I was told young people wanted something more so
1,2-diphenyl-2-(pyrrolidin-1-yl)ethanone - a LOT more like pyrovalerone but had that tendency to hang on for too long. Fun for 2 hours then, like cocaine (which I don't really care for truth be told), it just hangs on. So...
1-(4-methylphenyl)-2-phenyl-2-(pyrrolidin-1-yl)ethanone - The p-Me didn't increase potency but it meant that the subjective effects tailed off much more quickly beyond the 2 hour mark and that was pyrophenidone (which I know people liked)

but we DID go further

1-(2,3-dihydro-1H-inden-5-yl)-2-phenyl-2-(pyrrolidin-1-yl)ethanone - the indene ring was added to check if it were possible to improve serotonin reuptake inhibition. Was is us or did that p-Me FEEL a bit better? If so was it S related. No.
1-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-phenyl-2-(pyrrolidin-1-yl)ethanone - So obviously we wanted to know if like MDPV, the MD ring would increase DRI activity. It did but it was costly and not as smooth. The p-Me was nicer.

Meanwhile we obviously tried various other N substituents (and found the QSAR was more like PCP than K). The 2-F was tasted (not by me) but the EC crew all wanted that. Turned out that the ketone->amine step via NaBH4 stripped off that -F (or indeed the -Cl) which is why 2-MeO turned up. The N-methyl & N-ethyl didn't have much activity but a series was made with various substituents at the o,m & p position (the 2-Cl 5-MeO was good, the 2-Cl-5-OH was great... but too costly).

It was interesting to know that an MD can seemingly increase VMAT-2 affinity and that it isn't strictly serotonin. I know people placed MD rings onto several rigid PEA derivatives including the phenmetrazine, phenylmethylpiperidine esters (methylphenidate/levophacetoperane) & aminorex scaffolds. It isn't rewarding. The only commonality across them all is the monosubstitution of the m or p positions. As I have posted elsewhere, a 2:1 mixture of p-Me aminorex:m-Me aminorex is like MDMA on steroids. The p is a serotonin releaser, the m is mixed but mostly a dopamine releaser. Now, existing as a zwitterion as the 4,5-dihydro-1,3-oxazol-2-amine ring does, BOTH isomers are active since the exo form overlays MDA while the endo form overlays MDA. We worked that out afterwards. All we knew was that the p alone was inactive in most people, the m alone was just a stimulant & the 1:1 was too speedy. The 2:1 has the body rushes & legs of MDA (that 'sledging' & hugging yourself stuff) AND the euphoria and entactogenic effects of MDMA.

Since those long gone days I've spotted that 5/6(M)APB is taken from a patent (that Dr. Zee guy is a liar) and wondered about related rings. I cannot recall if it was Dr. Dave or Dr. Shulgin who tried adding an -F or two onto the methylene bridge (resulting in much lower potency) but I've not come across any studies using a benzoxathiol-6-yl or related (3H-2,1-benzoxathiolyl, 1,3-dihydro-2-benzofuran, 1,3-dihydro-benzothio and so on) ring. I SUSPECT that the aromatic has to be rotatable relative to the basic amine(s) for any ring supplying a lone-pair to work and I suspect that planer (so unsaturated) increases potency and shortens at least one bond-length so there is a little more space (if the -F derivatives were less potent due to lower affinity itself due to physical size. I mean, we know PMA & PMMA are pretty dangerous and people making 'ecstacy' using them is basically guilty of intentionally poisoning people (even the 2-carbon 5HT2a ligands seem toxic) BUT I would (very cautiously) taste the benzothiophene homologues of APB. 4MTA (p-thiomethoxy) is a more potent serotonin releaser that 4MA (p-methoxy), it's the MAOI activity that seems to make it more dangerous.

Most of these I've tasted, some I've had multiple reports on, at least 2 I WISH were available (p/m aminorex & isophenidine) and there are some that look like they are worth a liik (benzothiophene) but I think if I can compress it all down to a single point. An MD ring isn't magical. You can't just add it to any stimulant with a phenyl ring and 'E it up'. I know that thiopropamine was 'rediscovered' by someone on Russian Hyperlab so I checked & the 3,4 & 5 carbon cathinone have been made and in rat models at least, 1-(5-methylthiophen-2-yl)-2-(pyrrolidin-1-yl)pentan-1-one was the most potent. I'm prepared to bet ?1 that 1-(5-methylthiophen-2-yl)-2-(pyrrolidin-1-yl)propan-1-one will prove to be mephedrone-like and MAYBE 2-(methylamino)-1-(thieno[2,3-d][1,3]dioxol-5-yl)propan-1-one & N-methyl-1-(thieno[2,3-d][1,3]dioxol-5-yl)propan-2-amine will turn out to be like inferior versions of methylone & MDMA. As we proved with the 2-carbon ketone analogues of 2CB still have 5HT2a activity. That last one was a French idea...
 
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Last weekend, I extracted melatonin from about a 100 tablets with 1.9 milligrams melatonin per tablet. Soaked the tablets in about 1 dl of technical grade ethanol, and after a while filtered the solids with a cotton filter (the fillers in the tablets are mostly crystalline cellulose which doesn't dissolve in water or ethanol). Then added a bit of solid potassium hydroxide in the ethanol solution and kept it in a closed bottle at room temperature for over 16 hours. After that, I added about 2 dl of saturated sodium chloride solution to make the mixture polar, and then extracted with de-aromatized mineral spirits. Finally, I shaked the non-polar phase with vinegar (10% acetic acid) and separated the phases in a separatory funnel.

After evaporating the water and acetic acid, a bitter-tasting residue was left, and it probably contained some mexamine (5-methoxytryptamine) due to alkaline hydrolysis of the melatonin. Melatonin itself doesn't taste bitter like most alkaloids do. The only other possible explanation is that the taste was due to some denaturant in the tech. ethanol that somehow ended up in the final product. There was some NaCl and potassium acetate as an impurity in the residue, because some emulsified droplets of aqueous phase remained in the mineral spirits layer after separating the phases. Therefore, the final product was too impure to smoke (tried to do that, mixed with oregano and rolled into a cigarette, but the salt impurity acted as a fire retardant making that impossible).

Anyone ever tried whether mexamine has any effect when smoked? Shulgin reports that tryptamine itself is active at parenteral doses of 200+ mg. If the 5-methoxytryptamine is about 10-25 times more potent (as is the case when comparing other tryptamines to their 5-methoxylated counterparts), then it could be possible to inhale enough in a couple of puffs.

Note that this could be illegal in USA (unlike here), due to the controlled substance analogue act.
 
In 1999 or 2000, someone with nickname "Village Idiot" wrote about a meth synthesis where O-acetylated ephedrine was reduced electrolytically with a noble metal cathode and an anode compartment separated with a semipermeable membrane... I just thought whether someone could produce desomorphine from acetylated morphine/codeine in the same way, that would avoid phosphorus and other toxins ending up in the product... Not going into details about this of course, and the Russian kitchen chemists probably don't want to spend $300+ for a platinum electrolytic plate.
 
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I remember seeing that! Oh god it was from 1999. Speaking of faux Hinterland Canadian videos.
 
yeah, there are actually more.... crazy shit

i would totally rock the raver Death patch tho for real.. shades of terry pratchett... i guess Death needs to unwind sometimes too
 
I guess I should have made my post prison stint return 'hello' here. Funny how my eyes glaze over whenever the name of that MDMA function group appears.
 
I guess I should have made my post prison stint return 'hello' here. Funny how my eyes glaze over whenever the name of that MDMA function group appears.

Hey, I haven't posted here much until recently, but I remember you well from Opiophile. Glad you're still with us and back in the semi-free world.
 
Hey, I haven't posted here much until recently, but I remember you well from Opiophile. Glad you're still with us and back in the semi-free world.
Opiophile, years back, glad to have been a part of it & good to hear the well wishes.
 
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Life & Death 1 for DOS... great game. You too can learn how to remove someone's appendix. You know, just in case. As I recall you are a GI doc, and you can diagnose gas, bacterial infections, kidney stones, arthritis, appendicitis, & aortic aneurysms (the latter two require surgery). There's different medical imaging tools to help, surgeries can have complications arise which you have to deal with (I still remember - lidocaine for PVC, atropine for bradycardia!), and you even manage your surgical staff, some of which don't get along together.
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Or if you feel like it, you can be a maniac - diagnose the first person who you see with appendicitis, and as soon as you enter surgery start slicing them up sans anesthetique. The head of surgery doesn't like that. Another cool trick is putting someone with a pacemaker in an MRI (needless to say that would make a mess), or someone with shellfish (iodine) allergies in CT with iodinated contrast. Both end up killing the pt and you get a lecture.

(A confession: hemophobia runs on my father's side. I'm a little better than he is, but when I was a teen playing L&D1 - even though it's only 4-color CGA and PC speaker sounds - the first time I went to surgery, draped and anesthetized the poor bastard, incised across the lower right quadrant... saw the bleeders start... and almost passed out in my fucking chair. I got pretty tolerant to it, though, and soon enough I was fixing people's aortas.)

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The sequel, "Life & Death 2: The Brain" was even more harrowing. This time you're a neurologist, and you have 256 colors instead of 4. You diagnose migraine headaches, drug addiction, hysterical paralysis, neuropathy, infarcts, and do 3 different brain surgeries - subdural hematoma, brain tumor resection, and aneurysm repair. Even though it's a simulation game, the latter two are about as difficult as you would expect brain surgery to be. As for drug addicts, part of the deal is you get patients who are supposedly addicted to morphine or cocaine - diagnosed when the only abnormality is fucked pupils. You also have a magical clipboard, one option being "prescribe codeine".
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Doctor sekio says to his cocaine-addict patient, "you know what you need? some opioids to even the high out." Unfortunately if you go around Rx morphine for everything, the addicts end up dead and your boss gets pissed. You even get a scene of hospital staff eating pizza in the morgue and cracking jokes about your crap surgery ability.
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Oh, and this time you can be a maniac by doing things like jabbing pins (used for pain perception testing) into your pt's eye, give them nitroprusside and dopamine and watch their BP go to 0, or (this is a good one) operate on the wrong side of the head...

Definitely part of what made me interested in medicine! I highly reccomend.
 
It does, for example, no good to offer an elegant, difficult and expensive process to an industrial manufacturing chemist, whose ideal is something to be carried out in a disused bathtub by a one-armed man who cannot read, the product being collected continuously through the drain hole in 100% purity and yield. - Sir John Cornforth, Chemistry in Britain, 1975, 432.
 
Has anyone ever tried to get raw opium or some other plant material absorbed through the skin with DMSO and occlusion band? Does it still keep the allergenic biomacromolecules out while getting morphine and codeine absorbed? Transdermal dosing bypasses the first pass metabolism, so if you boil a poppy seed wash liquid down to dryness and then add DMSO, it could be of some use even if the seeds are so low on alkaloids that it wouldn't otherwise be worth it.
 
I would be wary bypassing first-pass metabolism with any kind of unrefined biological mixture.
 
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