3,4-dichloro-methylphenidate (3,4-CTMP / 3,4-DCMP)

[re-lapse]

Bloody hell - I was merely pointing out the irony inherent in someone castigating irresponsible drug users on the one hand, whilst on the other merrily sampling a barely-studied potent stimulant on a cocktail of subutex, pregabalin, ketamine and valium.

With all due respect, pharmacologically, you don't know what you're talking about. Just because the drugs have different primary CNS targets, doesn't mean that they won't have potential interactions. Armchair pharmacology is never a good idea when exploring new substances...

I'm not denying that this report offers some limited insight, but to call it harm reduction is a bit of a joke.

Why the hostility? I am on suboxone, pregabalin and valium daily - prescribed. You know nothing about me. I researched the limited info and decided that this new chemical would be safe to use with my 'cocktail' of drugs. I am not a fan of stimulants usually, but enjoy taking ketamine AFTER the peak - so I had a fairly good idea about what this new chemical brought to the table.

This is active from 5mg snorted but would advise 10-15mg to get a good feel for this stimulant. You will need something to help sleep aswell.

I never 'castigated' any one. I was just making clear that this should not be made available to people who are likely to sniff a 100mg+ line of it, having not researched it properly.

My (and I admit) slightly questionable report was possibly tainted by the drugs already in my system, but I don't believe they effected my experience. I have been prescribed those drugs for over a year and take them just to feel normal. The ketamine could have been left alone though, i agree.

Will get more soon and do another report.

Stay safe,

RL

p.s. Cheers for your back up 'scottishdnb', pm me if you need more info

[konshuss]

Kittens are dying from this low-level flame war. It would be nice if we could get back to the topic at-hand.

[mydrugbuddy]

Im not stiring no chemiocal for 2 hours. If the purpose s to imngest it to the body, wht not bomb 10 mg or s, the body can then stir it for 2 hours ?

[Ceres]

so, everyone happy to ingest this? *shakes head*

[knock]

Ceres, it would be useful if you could provide us with the benefit of your biochemistry knowledge rather than just posting pictures of molecules with smart remarks and expecting everyone to know what you're on about.

You're a knowledgeable guy, bless us with your wisdom.

[Shambles]

Indeed. That would be a boon, Ceres. Read some mutterings (I think in ADD?) about "iffy methyl groups" or some such tomfoolery but means nowt to us mere punters and ADD folk can be... well... a bit fannyish when it comes to risk-aversion

Basically, is it one of those vague kindasorta possiblymaybe generic murmurs of less than ideal chemical sexiness or more the anyone who takes this will die a horrible slow painful death after years of frequent bouts of debilitating physical and mental torments kinda jobbies? Somewhere inbetween, perhaps? Specific problems looming or more generalised unease?

[knock]

Thanks Mela. So 3,4 dichloro-methylphenidate is structurally closely related to a known neurotoxin, but it's not established that it is itself a neurotoxin.

To answer Ceres's question, if there's the slightest chance that it's not neurotoxic, then experience suggests some people will be happy to ingest this substance.

And even if it's definitely neurotoxic, then there will still be some people who won't think twice

When I was a teenager, the word on the street was that every drink of alcohol killed braincells. Our response - fuck it, we've got billions!

[Shambles]

How related is too related? Aren't plenty drugs but a small hop and a skip away from being seriously dodgy but in and of themselves perfectly servicable? Sometimes I wish I finished school so I'd maybe know some stuff... distant memories of middle school chemistry doesn't quite cut it.

[Transform]

4-FA is spectacularly close to 4-CA and yet it is demonstrably non-neurotoxic.

Given that CTMP is considerably different to 3,4-CA, I don't think it's fair to label it neurotoxic, especially when we so poorly understand the neurotoxicity of 4-CA.

Advanced Discussion: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/6...ty-of-3-4-CTMP

[Solipsis]

Hmm, well another example is that brephedrone (4-bromo-methcathinone) is very analogous to 4-bromo-amphetamine which made me try to warn users and sources, for a moment appearing somewhat successful but in the end to no avail.

Now read this from the Rhodium archive, and bear with me, it won't all be technical jibber jabber and you may want to hear my actual argument:

An unusual aspect of 4-CA metabolism is the reported conversion of the drug to oxygen-containing products. A phenolic product was identified by Parli and Schmidt (1975) as being 3-chloro-4-hydroxyphenylisopropylamine. This would seem to invoke the NIH shift as an explanation for the migration of the chloro atom. Even more remarkable is the report (Sherman and Gal, 1976) of the isolation of 3,4-dimethoxyphenylisopropylamine following the intraventricular injection of 4-CA. This represents the formation in vivo of a weak but accepted pressor and psychotomimetic. When the mechanism of its formation is understood, a chemical link may be at hand tying the simpler phenylisopropylamine stimulants to the methoxylated psychotomimetics. There were no reports from the clinical studies of 4-CA that suggested any psychotomimetic action.

This suggests that given enough room, some hydroxylase apparently oxidizes the halogenated position transfering the Cl to the adjacent position on the phenyl (called NIH shift as mentioned).
In such a compound as DOC or 2C-C there may be too much steric hindrance or the different electronic distribution making it too hard for such an enzyme to gobble on the Chloro.
However if 3,4-dichloroamphetamine also shows toxicity we may want to suspect something similar happening since the 4-chloro can still be relocated to the 5-position and/or the 3-chloro to the 2-position.

I must admit I was skeptic at first of polymath concerns, focussing on the various structural differences rather than the commonalities, but I think the above suggests that we should avoid a compound like this because of the likelihood of shady metabolites by hydroxylase.
Because you really don't want phenolic metabolites, I seem to recall F&B also avoiding anything that might lead to that like the plague and rightly so.

Also I think one of the most similar compounds to this CTMP is dichloropane, I am surprised no one has mentioned it and am also curious if that compound was tested for Raphe nuclei dopaminergic toxicity and things like that.

Then there is also AH-7921 with the same dichlorophenyl pattern but that might be too far from dopaminergic to be relevant. Still if you are a user of that or considering it, this could deter you.

Anyway I saw this drug (CTMP) being offered and after having the thoughts I just expressed decided that it would almost be hubristic to proceed trying it. (Apart from the fact that stimulants have pretty much disappeared from my diet)

If I haven't made myself very clear, ask.

[Shambles]

Have missed your impeccably written and occasionally impenetrable posts, Soli

Do believe I've also owed you a PM for over a year now

Don't get out of EADD much these days but your flying visit just jogged me mind. PM clearout is on the agenda too. Hopefully will speak soon

[Solipsis]

It was very nice to see you present in this thread as well Shammy, and also good to read that you still talk a bit like you come from A Clockwork Orange.
I thought maybe you had turned to other things than BL or was having one of those epic computer meltdowns.
And yes I even tried starting a PM directed at you just now but seeing it was impossible made it seem like stalking to get creative otherwise...

If & when you get around to it, drop me a line - in any case, now I know where you hide out. Or, like creeps sometimes say here: I know where your house lives.

[Shambles]

I can always been found pottering these parts, Soli. Is my home on the interwebz. If I ain't here I ain't got a functioning computer. Have circled the waggons a bit and become a bit of a homebody recently after a few too many "epic computer (and the rest ) meltdowns". Plus have only recently come off tramadol which prevented me from having much in the way of swirlyfuntimes for ages. Am all fit for swirls 'n' stuffs again now though so may well make it back over to PDland sometime soon. Was too much like torment trying to read about psyches but not being able to indulge

[Ceres]

Also I think one of the most similar compounds to this CTMP is dichloropane, I am surprised no one has mentioned it and am also curious if that compound was tested for Raphe nuclei dopaminergic toxicity and things like that.

Then there is also AH-7921 with the same dichlorophenyl pattern but that might be too far from dopaminergic to be relevant.

This is what I wonder you know, wether people realise that a single binding assay pointing to likely recreational effects of a chemical is not a good enough reason to happily start putting it into your body.

[knock]

This is what I wonder you know, wether people realise that a single binding assay pointing to likely recreational effects of a chemical is not a good enough reason to happily start putting it into your body.

Not sure which people you're talking about, exactly, but the vast majority of drug users don't know what a binding assay is let alone consider them when pondering whether or not to take a drug

Everything I've learned about psychopharmacology (which isn't that much, but it's enough to make some kind of sense of the words of experts like yourself) has been learned from Bluelight, or from reading I've done elsewhere which I wouldn't have done without being "exposed" to bluelight.

Which is why I love you so much, along with the many other people who regularly surprise me with their detailed technical knowledge of drugs.

This was an "Ode to Ceres" post. Just to make up for the odd jibe I've had at you from time to time.

[Ceres]

Heheh.

I think it's more the vendors that are choosing these drugs based on these studies perhaps, and just unfortunate that many of their customers are putting their safety in the hands of vendors that are often (in my experience) _incredibly stupid_.

[Solipsis]

Not sure which people you're talking about, exactly, but the vast majority of drug users don't know what a binding assay is let alone consider them when pondering whether or not to take a drug

Everything I've learned about psychopharmacology (which isn't that much, but it's enough to make some kind of sense of the words of experts like yourself) has been learned from Bluelight, or from reading I've done elsewhere which I wouldn't have done without being "exposed" to bluelight.

Which is why I love you so much, along with the many other people who regularly surprise me with their detailed technical knowledge of drugs.

This was an "Ode to Ceres" post. Just to make up for the odd jibe I've had at you from time to time.

True. Before the mephedrone boom I was an overenthousiastic experimenal and reckless piece of work. I gradually learned to say no but am a little bit burned out from saying yes a lot. Granted I was taking chemistry in college, but that didn't keep me from ordering a 7 x 1g sample pack from sweden with such compounds as 4-MMC, 4-FMC, a-PPP, MDPV, EthCat, maybe bk-MBDB, and I forgot the other one.
Since then, cathinones have been shown to get reduced to beta-hydroxy-PEA metabolites which are no good for your cardiovascular system. Fortunately those compounds don't immediately wipe out your prefrontal cortex but what if they did?
I could sit here and bash people saying "I would never do that" but I wouldn't be entirely truthful.

That said, I am not sure what people are thinking when they do read about such dangers and do it anyway. Poor impulse control I guess. For them apparently this site is not a harm reduction board at all but rather a place where you might find other poor souls who know what dose might at least not kill you on the spot.

[Ceres]

It is really just a matter of time before something really really tragic happens again.

[Solipsis]

Don't forget that people aren't always as likely to listen to you if you are facepalming a marathon at them.

Maybe if we relate to them and make a decent and convincing argument coming from a neutral premise there is a better chance of avoiding that real real tragedy.

So sorry though to be pedantic about something that has already been pointed out on this very page.

edit: well dammit, page break.

[specialspack]

That said, I am not sure what people are thinking when they do read about such dangers and do it anyway. Poor impulse control I guess. For them apparently this site is not a harm reduction board at all but rather a place where you might find other poor souls who know what dose might at least not kill you on the spot.

I'm not sure it's much of a mystery. Methamphetamine's neurotoxicity has been well known for years, yet it is still wildly popular.

[Solipsis]

Why you might want to forget about what I said earlier about CTMP dangers:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/6...ty-of-3-4-CTMP

[Ceres]

I assume that the structure etc was also indicative of psychoactivity? It is a closely related compound to MPH, after all.

I think the perspective being outlined here would have seen the lack of both PIHKAL and TIHKAL. I doubt half the compounds tested by Sasha et al even had binding assays, lol.

And to expand and consolidate, the most recent problematic RC (death and misery) was a compound tested by Sasha et al: 5-IT

The warnings here didn't come from people performing pharmacological divination, but mainly from users themselves (I know of people urging caution with this compound way before casualties - purely from subjective experiences).

Shulgin was making informed choices when he took those drugs, divination is a good word to describe the level of certainty involved in making presumptions about the metabolic fate and pharmacodynamics of a chemical in the human body based solely on structural features or specific functional groups - someone told me it's akin to predicting what influence the colour of your shirt will have on everything that happens to you and the things around you during a trip around the whole planet and back. I would expand on that by saying 'well, you could make some assumptions fairly confidently, like wearing a shirt with a swastika on it wouldn't be a great idea if you go through germany', and there are constantly improving algorithmic approaches to predicting pharmacodynamic features of chemical structures (toxtree or osiris molecular properties explorer are two free examples).

If closely related structures do exist in the literature and were found to be dangerous, then it must be properly investigated and people ought to be happy that possible risk can be identified in the first place, rather than find out the hard way after spending years of time and money and animals (or the idiotic way, by eating a spoonful of a chemical a vendor got synthed up and put on sale, perhaps with the sole rationale being a single paper that found the compound to have a hundredfold higher affinity for a receptor or transporter than a well known drug like cocaine in rat brains or cell cultures) .

This is the whole point of publishing research, and why even minor papers published in an obscure journal 70 years ago by a scientist who nobody has heard of since can still be immensley valuable today, if people dig them up and even just raise the conjecture on bl or wikipedia and it filters down, particularly in light of the rapidly growing number of people who's decision to take these drugs is informed by their mate telling them 'its awsome lol' and reading some shitty wikipedia article they assume is authorative.

Screening and binding studies are also much more trivial, cheaper and faster to perform today than they were when shulgin was doing his research decades ago. I would hazard a guess that someone today doing the equivalent of what shulgin did, in his backyard lab in the 70's and 80's privately, could probably take a slightly more sophisticated approach than a bit of progressive guesswork and increasing the dose from 0mg until you either start tripping or foaming at the mouth and convulsing.

But hey, we live in a world where vendors idea of chemical analysis a fucking melting point test, or sending a sample of a random discoloured powder off to some random lab in pakistan (which is actually just some conartist bloke with a printer and mspaint who never even went to school) for an NMR test that they can't even interpret the results of even if it is real, to 'prove' to their clientele who also can't interpret the results that the stuff is ok. Clearly nobody involved in the entire scene from lab to customer gives a shit.

[Ceres]

Yeah as it happens I had 5mg this afternoon at 2pm. thus the rather long post (Are you in academia, that wink makes me wonder if you've papers published yourself, im just a ugrad. oops. Don't take offense anyway, I tend to write replies like that on bl as if they are directed to everyone and anyone who might be reading it, and some stimulants make me more patronising than usual).

I'm only just about calmed down now nearly 12 hours later, and had to take a pretty hefty benzo dose just now to be confident ill actually sleep.

It feels much like ethyphenidate in the subjective mental effects, that unique sort of driven focus that can sometimes turn into spending hours completely absorbed in your work. It's been so long since I had MDPV that I can't really compare the two but it's certainly longer lasting, while not being as fiendishly compulsive to redose (likely due to just how obviously potent and persistent it is, it also seems to develop much more smoothly over a few hours whereas MDPV would give me that instant rush which made it more difficult to avoid spending days doing small bumps every 30 mins). It leaves methylphenidate in the dust anyway with its meagre duration.

3,4-dichloromethylphenidate, ethylphenidate and mdpv all seem equally as capable of putting me into a state of hypervigilance, repetitive compulsive anxiety behaviours, pervasive general anxiety and unease, losing ability to focus on one thing because im thinking of 100 different things i need to do / want to do at the same time and end up doing nothing but getting more anxious about the fact im getting none of these things done, which just leaves me completely disfunctional and increasingly pissed off and agitated as the hours go by until the whole day has eventually disappeared and my deadlines are long gone.

I'm sure there is great potential for panic attacks and paranoid psychotic states to develop in people who take too much, too often and let it get the better of them. I'm pretty familiar with those extreme states and know what the early warning signs are, but even the strongest willed people with the most insight and lucidty under the influence of drugs should be careful with this stuff. Even earlier today I found myself going downstairs to see if the mail had been delivered every 10 minutes, then every 5 minutes, then I realised I'd been doing it for 3 hours and started telling myself each time i got up to check it 'thats a compulsive irrational behaviour which is just making you anxious and distracting you from your work and it will get worse, so stop doing it now and dont worry'. I still kept doing it anyway until the post came.
I rarely do stims these days so im fairly aware usually of how my behaviour changes like that, but i'd soon loose the insight if i kept dosing it for days without sleeping, or too many days in a row. Definately a drug that will cause people problems if it finds its way into the hands of reckless or vulnerable people, regardless of any longer term potential biological toxicity that might come to light.

ethyphenidate feels extremely physically unhealthy to me, and had some quite frightening cardiovascular effects on me even with conservative doses. mdpv at least is more likely to make you psychotic before you can take enough for it to be physically dangerous in a healthy person.

3,4-DCMP feels like it should be treated with a similar degree of caution and respect as desoxypipradrol requires, although it is more fun than desoxypipradrol I think, while not being as hedonistic as mdpv. I wouldn't take it after lunchtime if I wanted to have a couple of hours to chill out before going to bed at a normal time later that evening, it's not great having to resort to benzos to put the brakes on for bed, and I don't do all nighters anymore, as tempting as it is to keep going heh.

Every time each of us takes a new drug (be it novel RC or not) you are essentially rolling a many sided die. In this case, consider Viagra - a drug known to have some pretty notable but rareish side-effects. Blindness, for instance. But peeps are happy enough to roll that die for a boner!

sure, but new drugs introduced on the legitemate pharmaceutical market have gone through years of animal and human trials and have already been given to thousands of humans in stage 3 trials before they reach the general public (which is even then still heavily monitored and considered part of the aprroval process) Even then, rare adverse reactions may occur in some people,long term unanticipated effects might come to light affecting large numbers of people years down the line, the bottom line is the whole business of drug design and use in humans is a seriously risky process despite the most intensive oversight of the whole process. We all know how the profit factor has consistently led to corruption in the biggest pharma companys, despite their products being for the healthcare market.

Now the situtation is one of people solely motivated by money, with no regulation or oversight or quality assurance, putting drugs on the market as recreational, sold to rapidly increasing numbers of people all over the world who are completely uninformed and vulnerable - if taking drugs are a gamble then the regulated pharma market involves significantly less risk.

Some vendors are of course more reponsible than others, but it is extremely distasteful to see the thin veneer of respectability and responsibility some of them attempt to cover their business with, misleading customers by giving them the impression their products are 'pure' and publishing completely worthless 'product analysis' data on their site makes them even more dangerous than the sites selling mystery powders with made up names.

[GlassCage]

Any opinions on how this substance might combine - at very low doses, of course - with 2-AI? Since 3,4-CTMP seems to act selectively on norepinephrine and dopamine, and 2-AI almost exclusively on serotonin, it strikes me as a possibly workable combo. Any obvious dangers here that non-chemists like me cannot see?

[doorknob]

Interesting sounding chemical, 20mg in a cap of Ethylphenidate before going out drinking seems to be quite a good combo. Given the low price of this stuff/dose, maybe a 1-3mg dose would be similar and cheaper.