3,4-dichloro-methylphenidate (3,4-CTMP / 3,4-DCMP)

[re-lapse]

Bloody hell - I was merely pointing out the irony inherent in someone castigating irresponsible drug users on the one hand, whilst on the other merrily sampling a barely-studied potent stimulant on a cocktail of subutex, pregabalin, ketamine and valium.

With all due respect, pharmacologically, you don't know what you're talking about. Just because the drugs have different primary CNS targets, doesn't mean that they won't have potential interactions. Armchair pharmacology is never a good idea when exploring new substances...

I'm not denying that this report offers some limited insight, but to call it harm reduction is a bit of a joke.

Why the hostility? I am on suboxone, pregabalin and valium daily - prescribed. You know nothing about me. I researched the limited info and decided that this new chemical would be safe to use with my 'cocktail' of drugs. I am not a fan of stimulants usually, but enjoy taking ketamine AFTER the peak - so I had a fairly good idea about what this new chemical brought to the table.

This is active from 5mg snorted but would advise 10-15mg to get a good feel for this stimulant. You will need something to help sleep aswell.

I never 'castigated' any one. I was just making clear that this should not be made available to people who are likely to sniff a 100mg+ line of it, having not researched it properly.

My (and I admit) slightly questionable report was possibly tainted by the drugs already in my system, but I don't believe they effected my experience. I have been prescribed those drugs for over a year and take them just to feel normal. The ketamine could have been left alone though, i agree.

Will get more soon and do another report.

Stay safe,

RL

p.s. Cheers for your back up 'scottishdnb', pm me if you need more info

[konshuss]

Kittens are dying from this low-level flame war. It would be nice if we could get back to the topic at-hand.

[mydrugbuddy]

Im not stiring no chemiocal for 2 hours. If the purpose s to imngest it to the body, wht not bomb 10 mg or s, the body can then stir it for 2 hours ?

[Ceres]

so, everyone happy to ingest this? *shakes head*

[knock]

Ceres, it would be useful if you could provide us with the benefit of your biochemistry knowledge rather than just posting pictures of molecules with smart remarks and expecting everyone to know what you're on about.

You're a knowledgeable guy, bless us with your wisdom.

[Shambles]

Indeed. That would be a boon, Ceres. Read some mutterings (I think in ADD?) about "iffy methyl groups" or some such tomfoolery but means nowt to us mere punters and ADD folk can be... well... a bit fannyish when it comes to risk-aversion

Basically, is it one of those vague kindasorta possiblymaybe generic murmurs of less than ideal chemical sexiness or more the anyone who takes this will die a horrible slow painful death after years of frequent bouts of debilitating physical and mental torments kinda jobbies? Somewhere inbetween, perhaps? Specific problems looming or more generalised unease?

[Mela]

Ceres, it would be useful if you could provide us with the benefit of your biochemistry knowledge rather than just posting pictures of molecules with smart remarks and expecting everyone to know what you're on about.

You're a knowledgeable guy, bless us with your wisdom.

Well, like most para-halide amphetamines, the dichloro- substituted amphetamine is somewhat a serotonergic neurotoxin (less so than 4-CA). How that relates to methylphenidate is not exactly clear - especially as their neuropsychopharmacology (amphetamine vs. methylphenidate) is not entirely comparable. From what little I know, the neurotoxicity of para-substituted amphetamines is due to toxic metabolites.

The main metabolite of Methylphenidate is ritalinic acid (PPAA). I assume the analogous metabolite would be the major metabolite for DC-MPH (DC-PPAA)?

[knock]

Thanks Mela. So 3,4 dichloro-methylphenidate is structurally closely related to a known neurotoxin, but it's not established that it is itself a neurotoxin.

To answer Ceres's question, if there's the slightest chance that it's not neurotoxic, then experience suggests some people will be happy to ingest this substance.

And even if it's definitely neurotoxic, then there will still be some people who won't think twice

When I was a teenager, the word on the street was that every drink of alcohol killed braincells. Our response - fuck it, we've got billions!

[Mela]

Thanks Mela. So 3,4 dichloro-methylphenidate is structurally closely related to a known neurotoxin, but it's not established that it is itself a neurotoxin.

To answer Ceres's question, if there's the slightest chance that it's not neurotoxic, then experience suggests some people will be happy to ingest this substance.

And even if it's definitely neurotoxic, then there will still be some people who won't think twice

lol, yeah...MDMA does seem to have a similar issue. Don't think this potential for neurotoxicity has had any great impact on its use.

[Shambles]

How related is too related? Aren't plenty drugs but a small hop and a skip away from being seriously dodgy but in and of themselves perfectly servicable? Sometimes I wish I finished school so I'd maybe know some stuff... distant memories of middle school chemistry doesn't quite cut it.

[Transform]

4-FA is spectacularly close to 4-CA and yet it is demonstrably non-neurotoxic.

Given that CTMP is considerably different to 3,4-CA, I don't think it's fair to label it neurotoxic, especially when we so poorly understand the neurotoxicity of 4-CA.

Advanced Discussion: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/6...ty-of-3-4-CTMP

[Solipsis]

Hmm, well another example is that brephedrone (4-bromo-methcathinone) is very analogous to 4-bromo-amphetamine which made me try to warn users and sources, for a moment appearing somewhat successful but in the end to no avail.

Now read this from the Rhodium archive, and bear with me, it won't all be technical jibber jabber and you may want to hear my actual argument:

An unusual aspect of 4-CA metabolism is the reported conversion of the drug to oxygen-containing products. A phenolic product was identified by Parli and Schmidt (1975) as being 3-chloro-4-hydroxyphenylisopropylamine. This would seem to invoke the NIH shift as an explanation for the migration of the chloro atom. Even more remarkable is the report (Sherman and Gal, 1976) of the isolation of 3,4-dimethoxyphenylisopropylamine following the intraventricular injection of 4-CA. This represents the formation in vivo of a weak but accepted pressor and psychotomimetic. When the mechanism of its formation is understood, a chemical link may be at hand tying the simpler phenylisopropylamine stimulants to the methoxylated psychotomimetics. There were no reports from the clinical studies of 4-CA that suggested any psychotomimetic action.

This suggests that given enough room, some hydroxylase apparently oxidizes the halogenated position transfering the Cl to the adjacent position on the phenyl (called NIH shift as mentioned).
In such a compound as DOC or 2C-C there may be too much steric hindrance or the different electronic distribution making it too hard for such an enzyme to gobble on the Chloro.
However if 3,4-dichloroamphetamine also shows toxicity we may want to suspect something similar happening since the 4-chloro can still be relocated to the 5-position and/or the 3-chloro to the 2-position.

I must admit I was skeptic at first of polymath concerns, focussing on the various structural differences rather than the commonalities, but I think the above suggests that we should avoid a compound like this because of the likelihood of shady metabolites by hydroxylase.
Because you really don't want phenolic metabolites, I seem to recall F&B also avoiding anything that might lead to that like the plague and rightly so.

Also I think one of the most similar compounds to this CTMP is dichloropane, I am surprised no one has mentioned it and am also curious if that compound was tested for Raphe nuclei dopaminergic toxicity and things like that.

Then there is also AH-7921 with the same dichlorophenyl pattern but that might be too far from dopaminergic to be relevant. Still if you are a user of that or considering it, this could deter you.

Anyway I saw this drug (CTMP) being offered and after having the thoughts I just expressed decided that it would almost be hubristic to proceed trying it. (Apart from the fact that stimulants have pretty much disappeared from my diet)

If I haven't made myself very clear, ask.

[Shambles]

Have missed your impeccably written and occasionally impenetrable posts, Soli

Do believe I've also owed you a PM for over a year now

Don't get out of EADD much these days but your flying visit just jogged me mind. PM clearout is on the agenda too. Hopefully will speak soon

[Solipsis]

It was very nice to see you present in this thread as well Shammy, and also good to read that you still talk a bit like you come from A Clockwork Orange.
I thought maybe you had turned to other things than BL or was having one of those epic computer meltdowns.
And yes I even tried starting a PM directed at you just now but seeing it was impossible made it seem like stalking to get creative otherwise...

If & when you get around to it, drop me a line - in any case, now I know where you hide out. Or, like creeps sometimes say here: I know where your house lives.

[Shambles]

I can always been found pottering these parts, Soli. Is my home on the interwebz. If I ain't here I ain't got a functioning computer. Have circled the waggons a bit and become a bit of a homebody recently after a few too many "epic computer (and the rest ) meltdowns". Plus have only recently come off tramadol which prevented me from having much in the way of swirlyfuntimes for ages. Am all fit for swirls 'n' stuffs again now though so may well make it back over to PDland sometime soon. Was too much like torment trying to read about psyches but not being able to indulge

[Ceres]

Also I think one of the most similar compounds to this CTMP is dichloropane, I am surprised no one has mentioned it and am also curious if that compound was tested for Raphe nuclei dopaminergic toxicity and things like that.

Then there is also AH-7921 with the same dichlorophenyl pattern but that might be too far from dopaminergic to be relevant.

This is what I wonder you know, wether people realise that a single binding assay pointing to likely recreational effects of a chemical is not a good enough reason to happily start putting it into your body.

[knock]

This is what I wonder you know, wether people realise that a single binding assay pointing to likely recreational effects of a chemical is not a good enough reason to happily start putting it into your body.

Not sure which people you're talking about, exactly, but the vast majority of drug users don't know what a binding assay is let alone consider them when pondering whether or not to take a drug

Everything I've learned about psychopharmacology (which isn't that much, but it's enough to make some kind of sense of the words of experts like yourself) has been learned from Bluelight, or from reading I've done elsewhere which I wouldn't have done without being "exposed" to bluelight.

Which is why I love you so much, along with the many other people who regularly surprise me with their detailed technical knowledge of drugs.

This was an "Ode to Ceres" post. Just to make up for the odd jibe I've had at you from time to time.

[Ceres]

Heheh.

I think it's more the vendors that are choosing these drugs based on these studies perhaps, and just unfortunate that many of their customers are putting their safety in the hands of vendors that are often (in my experience) _incredibly stupid_.

[Scotsman]

I’ll keep this short…..this stuff fucked me up !!!
I started with a few 2-3mg lines which was rather pleasant but nothing over powering.
I then had a 10mg line which took a while to build but I was really enjoying it, nice / chatty and focused.

I took 60mg of AH-7921 to take the edge of it about 6pm
Inbetween then and about 8pm I had another couple of 2-3mg lines.
Being a proper dick I left my bag of benzo’s in work so had nothing to get me to sleep.

So long and short of it I was awake all night and as time went on I was feeling more unwell.
My office isn’t far from where I live and I have keys so I went and get the benzo’s at 5am.
4 blues later an I managed to stop my heart racing but I felt really unwell.
I couldn’t go into work as I felt as if my body & brain had been poisoned and I felt terrible.

Finally managed to get to sleep about 7pm last night and I’m still not 100% right today.
There may have been an interaction with the AH-7921 but I won’t be going near this stuff ever again.

[Solipsis]

Not sure which people you're talking about, exactly, but the vast majority of drug users don't know what a binding assay is let alone consider them when pondering whether or not to take a drug

Everything I've learned about psychopharmacology (which isn't that much, but it's enough to make some kind of sense of the words of experts like yourself) has been learned from Bluelight, or from reading I've done elsewhere which I wouldn't have done without being "exposed" to bluelight.

Which is why I love you so much, along with the many other people who regularly surprise me with their detailed technical knowledge of drugs.

This was an "Ode to Ceres" post. Just to make up for the odd jibe I've had at you from time to time.

True. Before the mephedrone boom I was an overenthousiastic experimenal and reckless piece of work. I gradually learned to say no but am a little bit burned out from saying yes a lot. Granted I was taking chemistry in college, but that didn't keep me from ordering a 7 x 1g sample pack from sweden with such compounds as 4-MMC, 4-FMC, a-PPP, MDPV, EthCat, maybe bk-MBDB, and I forgot the other one.
Since then, cathinones have been shown to get reduced to beta-hydroxy-PEA metabolites which are no good for your cardiovascular system. Fortunately those compounds don't immediately wipe out your prefrontal cortex but what if they did?
I could sit here and bash people saying "I would never do that" but I wouldn't be entirely truthful.

That said, I am not sure what people are thinking when they do read about such dangers and do it anyway. Poor impulse control I guess. For them apparently this site is not a harm reduction board at all but rather a place where you might find other poor souls who know what dose might at least not kill you on the spot.

[Ceres]

It is really just a matter of time before something really really tragic happens again.

[Solipsis]

Don't forget that people aren't always as likely to listen to you if you are facepalming a marathon at them.

Maybe if we relate to them and make a decent and convincing argument coming from a neutral premise there is a better chance of avoiding that real real tragedy.

So sorry though to be pedantic about something that has already been pointed out on this very page.

edit: well dammit, page break.

[Mela]

This is what I wonder you know, wether people realise that a single binding assay pointing to likely recreational effects of a chemical is not a good enough reason to happily start putting it into your body.

I assume that the structure etc was also indicative of psychoactivity? It is a closely related compound to MPH, after all.

I think the perspective being outlined here would have seen the lack of both PIHKAL and TIHKAL. I doubt half the compounds tested by Sasha et al even had binding assays, lol.

And to expand and consolidate, the most recent problematic RC (death and misery) was a compound tested by Sasha et al: 5-IT

The warnings here didn't come from people performing pharmacological divination, but mainly from users themselves (I know of people urging caution with this compound way before casualties - purely from subjective experiences).

[specialspack]

That said, I am not sure what people are thinking when they do read about such dangers and do it anyway. Poor impulse control I guess. For them apparently this site is not a harm reduction board at all but rather a place where you might find other poor souls who know what dose might at least not kill you on the spot.

I'm not sure it's much of a mystery. Methamphetamine's neurotoxicity has been well known for years, yet it is still wildly popular.

[Solipsis]

Why you might want to forget about what I said earlier about CTMP dangers:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/6...ty-of-3-4-CTMP