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Using Ibudilast to treat Opiate analgsic, tolerance and withdrawals

chugs

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Feb 23, 2004
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Recently Adeliade University Dr Mark Hutchinson has been researching the use of Ibudilast to treat amongst a number of things Opiate analgsic, tolerance and withdrawals.

The thing is that Ibudilast has been used safely in humans for the past twenty years (although trials in NY are underway in relation to heroin).

That said the study uses naltroxone to precipitated withdrawal whilst simultaneously dosing the patient/rat with Ibudilast. I don't want that. I understand completely the purpose of the naltoxone and i don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with the efficey of Ibudilast. Unless someone thinks otherwise.

I won't bore you with quoting the article but its interesting, it shows how Ibudilast may help in reducing tolerance (yay!) whilst simultaneously protecting us from the immune response that is known as withdrawals. The pharmacology indicates that 30mg of Ibudilast is safe at the very least. I'm thinking of giving it a go in treating my opiate withdrawals.

So the questions, is Ibudilast prohibited by the TGA, are there any dangers known about it and am I crazy? Before you answer the last question I'd say this is probably far safer then buy RC's from say SR. but hey whatever rocks your boat.

Ouch!! I just found some suppliers (takes about ten seconds) several hundred for a 10mg!! (mods I'm not specify the actual amount ok)
 
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I don't think your crazi at all. Ibudilast sounds far safer than any opioids or even over the counter NSAIDS to me. Its a non specific PDE inhibitor that reduces microglyol activation, a powerfull force in influencing opioid tolerance. It seems like a sensible way to tackle opioid tolerance mechanisms without directly affecting opioid receptors.
 
I don't think your crazi at all. Ibudilast sounds far safer than any opioids or even over the counter NSAIDS to me. Its a non specific PDE inhibitor that reduces microglyol activation, a powerfull force in influencing opioid tolerance. It seems like a sensible way to tackle opioid tolerance mechanisms without directly affecting opioid receptors.

Well since I posted this I've done a massive amount of research into the phenomenon that is called "opiate withdrawals: and have come to the conclusion that it has nothing to do with withdrawals. What appears to be happening is absolutely fascinating and in fact completely turns on its head almost all of the theories about addiction.

So first things first. What is an opiate addiction, and why do you feel the need to use opiates plus, why do you feel sick a'la "dope sick" when you "stop" taking your opiate of choice. Be it, heroin, buprenorphine, Dihydrocodeine, oxymorphol, oxycodone, oxymorphone, morphine - whatever it is what is actually happening? For years people said it was because your MU receptor was in pain. Others said it was agonist this and partial agonist that and whilst other people said it was a karmic rebalancing. If you get really high apparently you have to pay for it by feeling really shitty. Others said it was because you hadn't put your faith in god and others just said you were weak fucked up junkie.

All of this is so wrong. Utterly fucking wrong. I mean the vast majority of ignores biology completely but the the stuff about opiate receptors is based on truths that have been managled by best guesses and very little empirical data / limited animal studies and a anti-drug coalition of governments , law enforcement agencies, massive parasitic drug rehab industry and many other groups who cynically manipulate drug research to ensure its findings keep drugs illegal, especially hard ones like opiates so as to ensure massive amounts of public money flow into their pockets (and allowing for illegal drug to be sold to the western countries and their illegal incomes to fund illegal wars across the planet).

So around 7 years ago cutting edge research carried out between the University of Boulder and Adelaide, by Professor Linda Watkins and Dr Mark Hamilton discovered something utterly amazing that it has utterly changed the paradigm of addiction and drugs.

It will ultimately lead us to a place where you will be able to take opiates without going into withdrawal. You will be able to take as much as you want and you will not become "addicted" or worse become sick when you stop taking them. And this applies to meth and coke as well!

I'm going to paraphrase/boil/summarise their research but essentially this is the deal.

When you take heroin (this applies to any opiate) your body basically breaks it down into two metabolites. One is called M3G (Morphine-3-glucuronide) and the other is M6G (Morphine-6-glucuronide). All opiates basically do this but its a little different with the synthetic opiates like buprenorphine (suboxone) - its metabolites are called buprenorphine-3-glucuronide and buprenorphine-6-glucuronide.

Essentially though the M6G is the stuff that makes you feel high/blocks the pain and all the other great effects that we associate with opiates.

Now, and this is the really really import bit. For many years it was thought that M3G was inactive. This means they thought it did nothing. This is a good example where the "specialists" just made a guess without any actual evidence to back up their findings.

Oh actually it did and it does something so amazing that once you appreciate it, it will fundamentally change how you view addiction.

See M3G binds to a receptor in your brain. It's a funny named receptor, called TLR4 (Toll-Like Receptor 4).

So what does TLR4 you ask. It's primary job is to activate the 'innate immune system'. See when you get sick proteins, presumably from the infection/injury itself bind to TLR which in turn activates your bodies response. Now when you get a flu virus what happens?

You aches and pains, fevers, swelling, you feel awful right. Well a little bit of this comes from the virus itself but much of it comes from TLR4, from a group of chemicals our bodies make that are called proinflammatory cytokines (PC).

From their wiki page; Due to their proinflammatory action, they tend to make a disease worse by producing fever, inflammation, tissue destruction, and in some cases, even shock and death.

There is also research that suggests that PC's are active in causing depression and anxiety.

Does this sound familiar? Anyone here like to let the straighties know what dope sick feels like. Like when your in supposedly withdrawal? I believe the most common refrain/comparisons used to describe opiate withdrawals is to say something like "its like having the flu but times a hundred".

"dope sick" is actually caused by M3G which is made from the heroin/bupe/morphine/methadone/oxy that you've just taken

But wait a minute chugs. I've been told that my withdrawals are caused by a lack of heroin. That because i got really high god is making me sick. I'm going through withdrawals and an intense desire to re-use because i'm weak and i can't control my urges.

No actually ironically enough the reason why you're going through withdrawals and intense desire to use again is because when you've been high on opiates that drug has simultaneously caused a massive quantity of proinflammatory cytokines to build up (M3G use) whilst the powerful pain relieving power of the drug (M6G) has covered up the pain and discomfort caused by inflammatory agents (PCs)

In chronic habitual drug user the elevated levels of these cytokines are crazy high.

In a opiate naive individual, someone who doesn't take opiates regularly the levels of PC's are very low so the pain relieving effect of the opiate last long enough to avoid from feeling any discomfort.

So to summarise. When you take your last shot/pill/hit before going cold turkey that is actually going make your dope sick worse. Its actually going to elevate your proinflammatory cytokine levels. When the pain relieving effects of M6G expire you're hit with the full force of the other effect of the opiate.

As people can attest the time frames also make sense. It can take a good three days for M3G to be metabolised out of your body. Depending on your metabolic rate and other factors it can take upwards of another 5-10 days for the cytokines to be metabolised out as well. This is the usual length of time it takes to get through dope sickness. Which is how i describe it now seeing its not actually "withdrawals".

So a few things. Imagine if heroin didn't have M6G. And you shot it up - and all it had was M3G. You'd go straight into "withdrawals" although it wouldn't be called withdrawals. It would be called dope sick.

Second thing. There is a large body of work that suggests that people who are exposed to stress hormones, cortisol, during early childhood and in the womb have subtle changes made to their brain. The Glia, where TLR4 lives, is apparently different in the brains of those exposed to stress hormones. It also causes significant issues with how our body produces dopamine (the neurotransmitter that helps us be good boys and girls by giving us focus and attention to learn and be obedient.

Now imagine a situation where TLR4 is being activated by some sort of malfunctioning part of the brain during early childhood A small trickle of these PCs have, per the research I've read, all sorts of problems. Depression, anxiety, combined with low dopamine and serotonin levels would create children with all sorts of behavioural problems. ADHD, poor attention in class, inability to focus, depression, anxiety and all sorts of other problems.

You wouldn't know that you're feeling sick, or can't focus because that's how you've always been. If you come from a childhood full of stress and abuse I'd imagine this is even worse.

This explains the wide differences between drug users. Its clear that people have suffered terrible abuse tend to be the most dysfunctional when it comes living and drug use. They have the biggest tolerances to drugs and require massive amounts (why because they've already got elevated levels of these proinflammatory cytokines).

And this has all be confirmed in animal studies. In one of the papers that Hutchinson wrote he basically created for the first time ever, animals addicted to opiates from birth. And he did it by causing physical stress/pain to the mothers before and just after giving birth. He then went and cured the rats from their opiate "addiction" by giving them ibudilast.

And its not just drug use. Overeating, gambling, overspending, excessive fitness/sports power games, and any other habit forming behaviour can create powerful neurotransmitters that alleviate the pain and discomfort caused by this problem.

We weren't born with a choice. We were born in pain. We were born suffering. All of this is confirmed by the very fact that a treatment designed to suppress TLR4 function - ibudilast - is not just working with opiate users but its also working with amphetamine addicts (and most likely cocaine users). In fact there is evidence that suggests it will work with alcohol addiction.

It suggests that there is a universal pathway to addiction and that addiction is primary response to pain and discomfort caused by the build up of incredibly toxic proinflammatory cytokines.

Anyway ibudilast is going to destroy the rehab industry. What I don't understand is why they don't replace morphine/opiate painkillers with M6G. The research shows that pure M6G is a superior agonist (because its not produce any of those nasty inflammatory agents).

Just one last point. Its clear that the researchers are playing a very careful game, making sure they don't pisss off the government but equally working hard to publish and get the research translated into a real world medication. See Hutchinson and Watkins make a huge effort to downplay the massive significance of their research. They tend to use conservative language and description that are in some ways old fashion and quaint. They talk about the research in the context of "withdrawal" and "addiction" when it reality addiction has nothing to do with a compulsion to use drugs without control.

Addiction is when you'll suffer an immense amount of pain if you don't take drug X. So you take it at all possible cost to avoid the huge amount of pain and discomfort that non-taking the drug will cause. Yes there is a degree of wanting to just get high and party but for the most part most people just want to live without pain - just be fucking normal.

So yeah I can't wait for ibudilast to come onto the market. It's going to change alot

references

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783351/
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25386959
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17982582
4. http://www.medicaldaily.com/cure-meth-addiction-fda-fast-tracks-human-trials-ibudilast-244892
 
Well since I posted this I've done a massive amount of research into the phenomenon that is called "opiate withdrawals: and have come to the conclusion that it has nothing to do with withdrawals. What appears to be happening is absolutely fascinating and in fact completely turns on its head almost all of the theories about addiction.

So first things first. What is an opiate addiction, and why do you feel the need to use opiates plus, why do you feel sick a'la "dope sick" when you "stop" taking your opiate of choice. Be it, heroin, buprenorphine, Dihydrocodeine, oxymorphol, oxycodone, oxymorphone, morphine - whatever it is what is actually happening? For years people said it was because your MU receptor was in pain. Others said it was agonist this and partial agonist that and whilst other people said it was a karmic rebalancing. If you get really high apparently you have to pay for it by feeling really shitty. Others said it was because you hadn't put your faith in god and others just said you were weak fucked up junkie.

All of this is so wrong. Utterly fucking wrong. I mean the vast majority of ignores biology completely but the the stuff about opiate receptors is based on truths that have been managled by best guesses and very little empirical data / limited animal studies and a anti-drug coalition of governments , law enforcement agencies, massive parasitic drug rehab industry and many other groups who cynically manipulate drug research to ensure its findings keep drugs illegal, especially hard ones like opiates so as to ensure massive amounts of public money flow into their pockets (and allowing for illegal drug to be sold to the western countries and their illegal incomes to fund illegal wars across the planet).

So around 7 years ago cutting edge research carried out between the University of Boulder and Adelaide, by Professor Linda Watkins and Dr Mark Hamilton discovered something utterly amazing that it has utterly changed the paradigm of addiction and drugs.

It will ultimately lead us to a place where you will be able to take opiates without going into withdrawal. You will be able to take as much as you want and you will not become "addicted" or worse become sick when you stop taking them. And this applies to meth and coke as well!

I'm going to paraphrase/boil/summarise their research but essentially this is the deal.

When you take heroin (this applies to any opiate) your body basically breaks it down into two metabolites. One is called M3G (Morphine-3-glucuronide) and the other is M6G (Morphine-6-glucuronide). All opiates basically do this but its a little different with the synthetic opiates like buprenorphine (suboxone) - its metabolites are called buprenorphine-3-glucuronide and buprenorphine-6-glucuronide.

Essentially though the M6G is the stuff that makes you feel high/blocks the pain and all the other great effects that we associate with opiates.

Now, and this is the really really import bit. For many years it was thought that M3G was inactive. This means they thought it did nothing. This is a good example where the "specialists" just made a guess without any actual evidence to back up their findings.

Oh actually it did and it does something so amazing that once you appreciate it, it will fundamentally change how you view addiction.

See M3G binds to a receptor in your brain. It's a funny named receptor, called TLR4 (Toll-Like Receptor 4).

So what does TLR4 you ask. It's primary job is to activate the 'innate immune system'. See when you get sick proteins, presumably from the infection/injury itself bind to TLR which in turn activates your bodies response. Now when you get a flu virus what happens?

You aches and pains, fevers, swelling, you feel awful right. Well a little bit of this comes from the virus itself but much of it comes from TLR4, from a group of chemicals our bodies make that are called proinflammatory cytokines (PC).

From their wiki page; Due to their proinflammatory action, they tend to make a disease worse by producing fever, inflammation, tissue destruction, and in some cases, even shock and death.

There is also research that suggests that PC's are active in causing depression and anxiety.

Does this sound familiar? Anyone here like to let the straighties know what dope sick feels like. Like when your in supposedly withdrawal? I believe the most common refrain/comparisons used to describe opiate withdrawals is to say something like "its like having the flu but times a hundred".

"dope sick" is actually caused by M3G which is made from the heroin/bupe/morphine/methadone/oxy that you've just taken

But wait a minute chugs. I've been told that my withdrawals are caused by a lack of heroin. That because i got really high god is making me sick. I'm going through withdrawals and an intense desire to re-use because i'm weak and i can't control my urges.

No actually ironically enough the reason why you're going through withdrawals and intense desire to use again is because when you've been high on opiates that drug has simultaneously caused a massive quantity of proinflammatory cytokines to build up (M3G use) whilst the powerful pain relieving power of the drug (M6G) has covered up the pain and discomfort caused by inflammatory agents (PCs)

In chronic habitual drug user the elevated levels of these cytokines are crazy high.

In a opiate naive individual, someone who doesn't take opiates regularly the levels of PC's are very low so the pain relieving effect of the opiate last long enough to avoid from feeling any discomfort.

So to summarise. When you take your last shot/pill/hit before going cold turkey that is actually going make your dope sick worse. Its actually going to elevate your proinflammatory cytokine levels. When the pain relieving effects of M6G expire you're hit with the full force of the other effect of the opiate.

As people can attest the time frames also make sense. It can take a good three days for M3G to be metabolised out of your body. Depending on your metabolic rate and other factors it can take upwards of another 5-10 days for the cytokines to be metabolised out as well. This is the usual length of time it takes to get through dope sickness. Which is how i describe it now seeing its not actually "withdrawals".

So a few things. Imagine if heroin didn't have M6G. And you shot it up - and all it had was M3G. You'd go straight into "withdrawals" although it wouldn't be called withdrawals. It would be called dope sick.

Second thing. There is a large body of work that suggests that people who are exposed to stress hormones, cortisol, during early childhood and in the womb have subtle changes made to their brain. The Glia, where TLR4 lives, is apparently different in the brains of those exposed to stress hormones. It also causes significant issues with how our body produces dopamine (the neurotransmitter that helps us be good boys and girls by giving us focus and attention to learn and be obedient.

Now imagine a situation where TLR4 is being activated by some sort of malfunctioning part of the brain during early childhood A small trickle of these PCs have, per the research I've read, all sorts of problems. Depression, anxiety, combined with low dopamine and serotonin levels would create children with all sorts of behavioural problems. ADHD, poor attention in class, inability to focus, depression, anxiety and all sorts of other problems.

You wouldn't know that you're feeling sick, or can't focus because that's how you've always been. If you come from a childhood full of stress and abuse I'd imagine this is even worse.

This explains the wide differences between drug users. Its clear that people have suffered terrible abuse tend to be the most dysfunctional when it comes living and drug use. They have the biggest tolerances to drugs and require massive amounts (why because they've already got elevated levels of these proinflammatory cytokines).

And this has all be confirmed in animal studies. In one of the papers that Hutchinson wrote he basically created for the first time ever, animals addicted to opiates from birth. And he did it by causing physical stress/pain to the mothers before and just after giving birth. He then went and cured the rats from their opiate "addiction" by giving them ibudilast.

And its not just drug use. Overeating, gambling, overspending, excessive fitness/sports power games, and any other habit forming behaviour can create powerful neurotransmitters that alleviate the pain and discomfort caused by this problem.

We weren't born with a choice. We were born in pain. We were born suffering. All of this is confirmed by the very fact that a treatment designed to suppress TLR4 function - ibudilast - is not just working with opiate users but its also working with amphetamine addicts (and most likely cocaine users). In fact there is evidence that suggests it will work with alcohol addiction.

It suggests that there is a universal pathway to addiction and that addiction is primary response to pain and discomfort caused by the build up of incredibly toxic proinflammatory cytokines.

Anyway ibudilast is going to destroy the rehab industry. What I don't understand is why they don't replace morphine/opiate painkillers with M6G. The research shows that pure M6G is a superior agonist (because its not produce any of those nasty inflammatory agents).

Just one last point. Its clear that the researchers are playing a very careful game, making sure they don't pisss off the government but equally working hard to publish and get the research translated into a real world medication. See Hutchinson and Watkins make a huge effort to downplay the massive significance of their research. They tend to use conservative language and description that are in some ways old fashion and quaint. They talk about the research in the context of "withdrawal" and "addiction" when it reality addiction has nothing to do with a compulsion to use drugs without control.

Addiction is when you'll suffer an immense amount of pain if you don't take drug X. So you take it at all possible cost to avoid the huge amount of pain and discomfort that non-taking the drug will cause. Yes there is a degree of wanting to just get high and party but for the most part most people just want to live without pain - just be fucking normal.

So yeah I can't wait for ibudilast to come onto the market. It's going to change alot

references

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783351/
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25386959
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17982582
4. http://www.medicaldaily.com/cure-meth-addiction-fda-fast-tracks-human-trials-ibudilast-244892

Do you think the same pro inflammatory mechanisms apply to dependence on amphetamines and how would this come about. Could there be a way by which XS dopamine courses free radicals which then activate pro inflammatory cytokine release or is amphetamine A direct TL are for agonist
The research you posted is very interesting thank you I hope it works out and one day and addiction becomes history
 
Do you think the same pro inflammatory mechanisms apply to dependence on amphetamines and how would this come about. Could there be a way by which XS dopamine courses free radicals which then activate pro inflammatory cytokine release or is amphetamine A direct TL are for agonist
The research you posted is very interesting thank you I hope it works out and one day and addiction becomes history

Well this says


February 26, 2013
Ibudilast Granted Fast Track Designation for Methamphetamine Dependence

MediciNova announced that the FDA has granted Fast Track designation for Ibudilast (MN-166) for the treatment of methamphetamine dependence. MN-166 is a first-in-class, orally bioavailable, small molecule phosphodiesterase (PDE) -4 and -10 inhibitor and a macrophage migration inhibitory factor (MIF) inhibitor that suppresses pro-inflammatory cytokines including IL-1SS, TNF-a, and IL-6, and may upregulate the anti-inflammatory cytokine IL-10 and neurotrophic factors. It has also been shown to be a toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) functional antagonist that may contribute to its therapeutic action. Studies for clinical development of MN-166 are currently ongoing in both methamphetamine addiction and opioid addiction.

So it suggests that the "withdrawals" of amphetamines has a similar mechanism.

Because that's what we're talking about. The pain and discomfort that occurs after your last dose of drug X. This pain, both physical and mental is the directly - number one reason for relapse.

I get maybe 6 months of non-use and your bored and want to get high is something that you may do but after using for a couple of days its quite easy to build up a number of chemicals that will lead to extreme pain and discomfort if you stop - a postive feedback loop which is what addiction is really all about.

I think a very big, and understated, issue with amphetamines is the lack of sleep. Recent research suggests that sleep is extremely important in removing shit (like literally shit) that builds up in the brain. [1] The video I link below is an extremely awesome lecture on what's going but essentially it boils down to this. Your brain makes 2% of your mass and yet it uses a quarter of all of the energy/nutrients you take in. As we know cells produce by products after their metabolised the energy that we consume. However unlike the brain the rest of the body has dual action circulatory system that takes these by products to the kidneys and such. The brain however needs a way of getting rid of these byproducts and it appears that sleep is the mechanism. Research apparently shows that when we sleep, blood is drained out of the brain and spinal fluids enter the same space as the blood did and washes/removes the byproducts after a days work.

Soooo back to amphetamine abuse. People who don't sleep for several days (or who are suffering tumours that block, at the base of the spine where the fluids enter/build up) will invariably get these by products building up to dangerous levels.

The activation of Toll Like Receptor by a amphetamine metabolite is possible but clearly the difference between what we call amphetamine withdrawals and "opiate amphetamine" - all misnomers - are quite different in the level of pain and discomfort. OPiate withdrawals are 10/10 on a pain and discomfort scale and amphetamine withdrawals are probably no worse then a 8/10 (and thats with extreme use). But because of the difference its clear that amphetamines aren't activating the full fury/array of the Toll Like Receptors. There is a whole family of the right. Maybe they're activating one or more of the other Toll Like Receptors but not all of them and not all the time so therefore the build up of the cytokines is no where near the same level as it does with chronic opiate use.

However i would argue there is a synergistic effect with the neurotoxic effects caused from the lack of sleep and the low level activation of TL receptors which create the various cytokines meaning that the net effect of stopping amphetamines is significant pain / "withdrawals". That pain, discomfort is intense and awful depending how many days you haven't slept for and how long you've been using.

How all this works with the dopamine I don't know and I haven't read anything beyond Dr. Gabor Maté work talks about how stress hormones effect dopamine systems and how ADD is more then likely due to stress during pre-and post natal development. Basically cortisone changes the growing brains glia and hypothalamus.

I would imagine that any negative effect caused by the deformed hypothalamus, specifically problems with the production and uptake of dopamine (and other neurotransmitters) wouldn't necessarily have a direct affect on TLR4 but probably has its own effect that when combined with low levels of proinflammatory cytokines, especially long before you took drugs i.e. they work together, priming individuals for drug abuse and creating greater extremes in their reaction to drugs, specifically in relation to depression and mental illness.

This is why only a small percentage of hte population become chronic opiate users because our physiological reaction that occurs after the last dose is far different and worst compared to normal people who take them for a short period 3-6 months. Yes they get some withdrawals but no where near as bad as I do if I take them for 3-6 months.

------

1. https://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_iliff_one_more_reason_to_get_a_good_night_s_sleep?language=en
2. http://www.amazon.com/Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Encounters-Addiction/dp/155643880X
 
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Have you heard of plus naloxone, it is the dextrorotatory form of The naloxone molecule. Unlike normal naloxone this isomer, has no activity at any opioid receptor but rather acts as a potent antagonist of the TLR4 receptor. The same goes for naltrexone, The d isomer blocks TLR4 but does not affect any opioid receptor. These compounds have potent anti-inflammatory effects and have proved highly effective in treatment of neuropathic pain. Investigators think they will soon prove useful in treatment of anxiety disorders bipolar disorder and even schizophrenia and treatment resistant depression.
 
Have you heard of plus naloxone, it is the dextrorotatory form of The naloxone molecule. Unlike normal naloxone this isomer, has no activity at any opioid receptor but rather acts as a potent antagonist of the TLR4 receptor. The same goes for naltrexone, The d isomer blocks TLR4 but does not affect any opioid receptor. These compounds have potent anti-inflammatory effects and have proved highly effective in treatment of neuropathic pain. Investigators think they will soon prove useful in treatment of anxiety disorders bipolar disorder and even schizophrenia and treatment resistant depression.

Very interesting!

I thought plus naloxone was shit i.e. that it was simply naloxone with ibudilast. I didn't realise it was different isomer of naloxone! wow.

To be frank my original view when reading Hutchinsons work was that plus naloxone was a cynical ploy of keeping the puriturian committees that fund his work onside. IF he had created a drug that allowed drug users to get high from opiates without any withdrawal, well god forbid the idea of consequence free drug use. Imagine the ramifications.

Indeed ibudilast if it is effectively will utterly destroy the rehab industry. It will destroy the billions we spend in law enforcement. In NSW alone we spend $8b on cops, lawyers, and prisons. With half of all arrests/charges (115k vs 54k) related to drugs matter this means approx half our expenditure is spent on drug matters (indeed its probably more because of how economies of scale works). If you multiple that $4b over 6 states, you'd roughly get an amount somewhere between $20-30b if you factor in federal agencies. In the US, if you took the average $4b per state you're looking at $200b

And that's before you get into the massive costs of health expenditure, stolen property, lost productivity and the $2b per year per state that is flowing to cartels, the mafia and triads (ACC reporting). We're talkin $15b in Australia and another $115b in the US. Again if you look across the world the drug wars represents easily several trillion dollars (not the $500b in the UN reporting).

And ibudilast will basically destroy most of that.

Think of a opiate addict who no longer gets withdrawals/dope sickness. No more stealing to get high. Think of a opiate addict who has no tolerance (ibudilast takes away tolerance). Instead of shooting 1 gram a day they can go back to the opiate naive dose of 10-20mg per shot! Tolerance dictates overdoses. People take massive doses because they're used to shit house drugs. When the drug quality varies or its cut with powerful opiates, or a user is in the loop of clean / dirty / clean / dirty they invariably use the wrong amount. If opiate users knew that the dose will forever be 10-20mg no matter what we'll see a massive reduction in overdoses.

The same for amphetamines and coke, and i suspect for alcohol.

So if ibudilast was commonly available there would be a significant reduction in drug use which translate to less busts, less trafficking, less monies for the drug wars, less arrests, less cops, less lawyers, less judges, less prisons and so on. Less overdoses, less stealing and theft, less money to the crime groups and so. Less rehab (as anyone will be just able to stop using when they want!!).

I've been really wanting to contact Hutchinson and Watkins. I want to understand further how this works and their views on the ramifications of their work. But it is fucking huge to say the least. I'm definitely going to read more about plus naloxone though. Great spot neuroprotection
 
Very interesting!

I thought plus naloxone was shit i.e. that it was simply naloxone with ibudilast. I didn't realise it was different isomer of naloxone! wow.

To be frank my original view when reading Hutchinsons work was that plus naloxone was a cynical ploy of keeping the puriturian committees that fund his work onside. IF he had created a drug that allowed drug users to get high from opiates without any withdrawal, well god forbid the idea of consequence free drug use. Imagine the ramifications.

Indeed ibudilast if it is effectively will utterly destroy the rehab industry. It will destroy the billions we spend in law enforcement. In NSW alone we spend $8b on cops, lawyers, and prisons. With half of all arrests/charges (115k vs 54k) related to drugs matter this means approx half our expenditure is spent on drug matters (indeed its probably more because of how economies of scale works). If you multiple that $4b over 6 states, you'd roughly get an amount somewhere between $20-30b if you factor in federal agencies. In the US, if you took the average $4b per state you're looking at $200b

And that's before you get into the massive costs of health expenditure, stolen property, lost productivity and the $2b per year per state that is flowing to cartels, the mafia and triads (ACC reporting). We're talkin $15b in Australia and another $115b in the US. Again if you look across the world the drug wars represents easily several trillion dollars (not the $500b in the UN reporting).

And ibudilast will basically destroy most of that.

Think of a opiate addict who no longer gets withdrawals/dope sickness. No more stealing to get high. Think of a opiate addict who has no tolerance (ibudilast takes away tolerance). Instead of shooting 1 gram a day they can go back to the opiate naive dose of 10-20mg per shot! Tolerance dictates overdoses. People take massive doses because they're used to shit house drugs. When the drug quality varies or its cut with powerful opiates, or a user is in the loop of clean / dirty / clean / dirty they invariably use the wrong amount. If opiate users knew that the dose will forever be 10-20mg no matter what we'll see a massive reduction in overdoses.

The same for amphetamines and coke, and i suspect for alcohol.

So if ibudilast was commonly available there would be a significant reduction in drug use which translate to less busts, less trafficking, less monies for the drug wars, less arrests, less cops, less lawyers, less judges, less prisons and so on. Less overdoses, less stealing and theft, less money to the crime groups and so. Less rehab (as anyone will be just able to stop using when they want!!).

I've been really wanting to contact Hutchinson and Watkins. I want to understand further how this works and their views on the ramifications of their work. But it is fucking huge to say the least. I'm definitely going to read more about plus naloxone though. Great spot neuroprotection
Thanks
Just like you, I have been wishing for a way to eliminate opioid tolerance, both physical and psychological aspects. If you manage to contact the researchers, could you ask this question for me: Would plus naloxone or ibudilast dampen down or block the drug high, that appears to be the line I am getting from reading about plus naloxone on Wikipedia. I realy hope I am wrong, although it could mean that one should use these substances once they are addicted to reset their tolerance back to 0
 
There is another substance I was surprised to find can reverse opioid and benzodiazepine tolerance according to some scientific studies. It is melatonin, which is a widely available supplement. I think the way it works is anti-oxidant in nature but also probably has some anti-inflammatory effects
 
I'll have to look at melatonin. I didn't know it was a antioxidant. I just thought it was neurotransmitter but you know I would have to say I think you're onto something. I've noticed when a awaking from a good sleep that the sleepy feeling seems to create a sleep force field that holds off the onset of dope sickness. The moment the sleepy feeling goes almost immediately the dope sickness kicks in.

Re tolerance mechanism I'm fairly certain that tolerance is the result of high levels of M3G which in turn = high levels Proinflammatory Cytokines (PC)s. As the levels of M3G & PCs increase in turn you need ever larger amounts of M6G in order to cover up the pain M3G and PCs create.

Going back to antioxidants and anti-inflammatory agents i'm starting to see a relationship between high levels of folic acid and the reduced severity of dope sickness. However i think its more then just taking some vitamins. See the key isn't to take them when you've stop taking opiates but rather taking elevated levels of antioxidants, anti-inflammatories (not iburofen though).

Why because when your using a TLR4 agnoist like heroin, morphine or buprenorphine its M3G is constantly telling your body to make incredibly toxic factors like L-6, and TNF-α and these are building up and up. So to counteract that and to reduce the severity of the dope sickness (that you feel when the M6G wears off) keep up the battery of antioxidants and anti-inflammatories.

Just to add though, there are a fe things I do to improve the uptake and regulation of these substances into my body. Firstly fruit. I suspect the reason why vitimain pills have shown up fairly disappointing results in major studies is because the mechanisms around uptake are misunderstood. In a piece of fruit outside of the major vitiamins and minerals that we understand there are also hundreds if not thousands of chemicals otherwise known as polypenals. Its clear that these chemicals aid in the uptake of vitamins.

So as a double measure I take a high quality mutli-vitamin (pregnancy ones are good re the absorbic acid) a piece of fruit and a strong coffee (alkaloids of coffee = powerful antioxidants.)

On top of this I try to eat a hearty and large meal. The trick is to pump your metabolic rate so as to metabolise out M3G and those proinflammatory cytokines. So on top of all that I like to go on a long walk finally finishing off with long long showers. Finally the last two bits in my regime I try to take less on my last shot and I take every step I can to get a uncut/pure product. My dealer offers for a premium what he calls straight off the block. Definitely way easier to withdraw from it then from the stuff that he cuts up.

so after all this I've seen significant improvements. Reduced severity of dope sickness symptoms, like from 10/10 to 5/10. Significantly increased duration before onset of dope sickness i.e. I was going into dope sickness at 12+h hours (i call it heroin hours) and now I can reach 18-20 hours before I feel anything more then some anxiety and sweats. I have my appetite, I don't feel overwhelming negative, dark, anxious, scared or overall depressed, at least in the first 20 or so hour.

Now that said I haven't gone past 20 hours with this system as i simply cut over to buprenorphine. But considering I no longer have precipitated dope sickness I have to say that this is alone is validating my approach.
 
Have you researched d naloxone yet, and if so what do you think of it.
Do you feel there are significant drawbacks or is this wonder drug.
 
Have you researched d naloxone yet?

Just did some reading on it then. Look its definitely interesting however at the end of the day we have three options

1. (+)-Naloxone
2. ibudilast
3. Morphine-6-glucuronide

Either way those 3 options are technically unavailable, at least in Australia. I had a senior consultant imply (barely that) ibudilast was available in the US in high end-clinics but considering the fortune one would have to spend it would probably be cheaper to setup a company and then use it to order one of those three substances from chemical supply houses. Although it'd still cost a fortune. Ibudilast, outside of countries that prescribe it, cost $2k a gram via chemical supply companies (well at least back in 2012 that was the case). The most realistic option is to fly to Japan and try to convince a doctor however considering customs, language barriers, laws and regulations and the fact that i'm not suffering from epilepsy i don't think its actually going to succeed.

Unfortunately we're going to have to wait until our respective drug administration authorities approve these substances onto our local markets.
 
Just did some reading on it then. Look its definitely interesting however at the end of the day we have three options

1. (+)-Naloxone
2. ibudilast
3. Morphine-6-glucuronide

Either way those 3 options are technically unavailable, at least in Australia. I had a senior consultant imply (barely that) ibudilast was available in the US in high end-clinics but considering the fortune one would have to spend it would probably be cheaper to setup a company and then use it to order one of those three substances from chemical supply houses. Although it'd still cost a fortune. Ibudilast, outside of countries that prescribe it, cost $2k a gram via chemical supply companies (well at least back in 2012 that was the case). The most realistic option is to fly to Japan and try to convince a doctor however considering customs, language barriers, laws and regulations and the fact that i'm not suffering from epilepsy i don't think its actually going to succeed.

Unfortunately we're going to have to wait until our respective drug administration authorities approve these substances onto our local markets.

It's unfortunate that governments are so slow to approve such brilliant treatments, until they do it is up to us to make the most of what we have. For example natural and synthetic antioxidants such as vitamin e, n acetylcystine or even better acetylcystine amide, ascorbic acid as well as commonly available pharmaceutical drugs. These include: The L type calcium channel blockers like vyrapamol and isaradapine, as well as the endothelin antagonists. Both these classes of drugs are antihypertensives used for the control of high blood pressure. However not all antihypertensives lower drug tolerance. Four example the nitrate compounds such as nitroglycerin and sorbitol dinitrate work by generating large quantities of nitric oxide which is a free radical and key mediator in opioid tolerance. Conversely inhibitors of Nitric oxide synthase enzymes, particularly those selective for the neuronal enzyme can slow, prevent and reverse opioid tolerance. Methylene blue is a selective neuronal nitric oxide inhibitor, so it may be a good supplement to use along with others or alone for slowing tolerance. As nitric oxide is one of the downstream products and mediators of NMDA receptor activation, inhibiting its production in neurons offers the benefits of NMDA antagonists without side affects or alteration of the opioid high. A less well known but supposedly easy to obtain substance is the CKK antagonist proglumide, though if used to often a tolerance to it can build up. However if The tolerance is short lived and reversible then it should not be much of an issue.
Another substance you can look into is the antibiotic minocycline, it is a powerful suppressor of microglial activity, while also blocking neuron death via suppression of apoptosis. It is currently being studied for treatment of schizophrenia and severe depression.
 
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I have only done a small portion of research on Ibudilast, but is it the PDE-4 inhibition that causes a reduction in tolerance and withdrawal symptoms? Because if so, Kanna (sceletium tortuosum) is also a PDE-4 Inhibitor, although most likely not nearly as strong as ibudilast, could it still have some favourable effects on opioid tolerance?
 
I have only done a small portion of research on Ibudilast, but is it the PDE-4 inhibition that causes a reduction in tolerance and withdrawal symptoms? Because if so, Kanna (sceletium tortuosum) is also a PDE-4 Inhibitor, although most likely not nearly as strong as ibudilast, could it still have some favourable effects on opioid tolerance?

To be honest, I'm not sure if it is specifically PDE4 inhibition or general inhibition of many pde enzymes that give ibudilast its affects on opioid tolerance, if I find the answer, I will post it hear on this thread. It should be said however, that pde4 inhibitors are powerfull anti-inflammatory and immune modulater substances, so they possibly have an affect on opioid tolerance via suppression of microglial activity. The drug aprenilast is a selective pde4 inhibitor being studdied to treat arthritis because of its power as an anti-inflammatory. The affects and mechanism of kanna alkaloids are fascinating in my opinion. They act as potent seratonin reuptake inhibitors as well as potent pde4 inhibitors. This pharmacological profile makes kanna extract an interesting and promising area of research in the field of addiction treatment.
By the way have you tried kanna, if so please post your experience,, it would be interesting to know what combined seratonin reuptake and pde4 inhibition feels like.
Thanks
 
I have used kanna on and off for many months now at dosages between 400 and 500mg, non-fermented. It has worked great as a mood enhancer and motivator, but does not give any high that i could describe. Its a very background kind of substance, but it is very nice to have around. It goes well with kratom too, by enhancing the stimulatory effects.

I have noticed no effect on my tolerance to kratom while using kanna, and i have used it daily for up to two weeks at a time before. This is why i asked about the PDE4 inhibition because i thought maybe at higher dosages, it might work better for tolerance to opioids
 
I have been considering acquiring some Ibudilast 10mg tablets, for the period leading up to withdrawal (tapering) and throughout - when I actually decide to taper off of my 4-8mg/day bupe dose.. Looks like promising stuff, super interesting.

A. <3
 
I have been considering acquiring some Ibudilast 10mg tablets, for the period leading up to withdrawal (tapering) and throughout - when I actually decide to taper off of my 4-8mg/day bupe dose.. Looks like promising stuff, super interesting.

A. <3

ok but really important. You need to take the ibudilast a couple of weeks before you stop using. You'll find that if you take ibudilast that you should be able to lower your opiate dose significantly as your body will stop producing the factors that create dope sickness (and tolerance).

I would also recommend that you look at 30mg. Some of the studies i've read had users dosing at 30mg a day.

So, a good week before you plan to stop using. Start taking 30mg ibudilast once daily.

Mods.....seeing that ibudilast can't be used to "get high" is it ok to ask for sourcing on this seeing it has massive HM value?
 
ok but really important. You need to take the ibudilast a couple of weeks before you stop using. You'll find that if you take ibudilast that you should be able to lower your opiate dose significantly as your body will stop producing the factors that create dope sickness (and tolerance).

I would also recommend that you look at 30mg. Some of the studies i've read had users dosing at 30mg a day.

So, a good week before you plan to stop using. Start taking 30mg ibudilast once daily.

Mods.....seeing that ibudilast can't be used to "get high" is it ok to ask for sourcing on this seeing it has massive HM value?

Thanks for these great posts, Chugs. Good shit. Reminds me why I first came to BL.
 
Do you think ibudilast could have some serious Side effects? If not it would probably benefit all of us even if we are not opioid dependent.
Also what do you think ultra low dose naltrexone would do in combination with ibudilast?
 
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