• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!
  • MDMA Moderators:

Moonrock Molly

You are telling everyone that MDMA consists of two molecules and one of them aint MDMA. No one said anything about impurity. Personally if you word it like "MDMA in its crystal form can only be 84% of active MDMA this is because of the way salt bonding works" people get it. They dont have to know why.
This get's paraphrased by the average person (yes many lurkers here who do not even have accounts!) to mean "dude, your MDMA can't be more than 84% pure" if their dealer says it's pure MDMA. This leads to more confusion and a distortion.

84% active MDMA is 100% pure. plain and simple. this is confusing to most people.

This is translated to mean the highest purity is 84%, which is false. What is true is that 84% of the mass in purest HCl form is freebase. That's it. It's still 100% pure product.

MDMA in pure freebase form is a highly corrosive volatile oil that is unstable in standard environments and not suitable to a consumer.

The average user here is a MDMA consumer, not a chemist. Saying it's 84% pure is false. Saying it's 84% MDMA base is true. The consumer product is still 100% pure.

If this forum was full of chemists this argument might be worth hashing out. To most people here, it's simply confusing as hell and will lead to more misinterpretations by 16 year old lurkers who have not had or paid attention to a single day of the most basic high school chemistry class, than actual spreading of knowledge.
 
Last edited:
This get's paraphrased by the average person (yes many lurkers here who do not even have accounts!) to mean "dude, your MDMA can't be more than 84% pure" if their dealer says it's pure MDMA. This leads to more confusion and a distortion.

Heres something to consider:

I know from reports and general hanging out on synth forums Acetates and Phosphates are used. Despite what is said about everything being HCL. Acetates and Phosphates are also relatively cavelier free and are relatively non hygroscopic and are relatively stable.

Why would you use a phosphate for example if you were making MDMA crystal?

MDMA Molecular Mass - 193.2 g/mol
Phosphoric Acid - 98 g/mol

MDMA molecule mass in MDMA phosphate is = 66%

if you are in the business of selling MDMA by the kilo say for arguments sake sells for $30,000 (this figure is fictional)

Imagine 1kG of MDMA costs you $10,000 to make. (this figure is fictional)

If you make Phosphate MDMA instead of Hydrochloride MDMA you save $1800 in product on every kilo.

That to me would provide quite an incentive to supply MDMA Phosphate instead of HCL.

If you send this in to edata for GC/MS they are not going to say adulterated they are going to say pure.

If you marquis test the puddle will go dark purple.

84% active MDMA is 100% pure. plain and simple.

84% active MDMA would indicate an HCL salt. So yes would indicate a 100% pure MDMA HCL salt.

this is confusing to most people.

If edata are measuring molecule only people have to get their head around this or the dose information on there wont mean shit. To get an accurate HCL dose (if that is their reference point) then they have to add 16%.

MDMA in pure freebase form is a highly corrosive volatile oil that is unstable in standard environments and not suitable to a consumer.

It might be suitable to smoke as the melting point will be lower. I havent yet figured out if you can do this.

The average user here is a MDMA consumer, not a chemist. Saying it's 84% pure is false. Saying it's 84% MDMA base is true. The consumer product is still 100% pure.

Saying its 84% pure in a sense is true. It only contains 84% mass of the active CNS ingredient.

Saying its 84% base is not correct. It is only base in its purest form with no bond (ie its free).

If this forum was full of chemists this argument might be worth hashing out. To most people here, it's simply confusing as hell and will lead to more misinterpretations by 16 year old lurkers who have not had or paid attention to a single day of the most basic high school chemistry class, than actual spreading of knowledge.

I am not sure if I agree with this. I personally think its quite simple. Any educated 16 year old could get their head around this with a bit of guidance and learning.

I dont think everyone is a chemist or infact wants to be a chemist but they do like to know about dosing and compound strengths.

Imagine a time when edata could contain isomer ratio / salt type and all the mG quantities of everything in the pill.

I think it would certainly explain a few more things than the HCL assumption world we currently find ourselves in.

At the end of it all does + or - 16% dose make much difference? I dont think its life and death but I also think its something for people to be aware of 16 year olds included :D
 
When they do this semi-melting think is it press into big blocks or slabs
Cos it sometimes has the aprearance it has been
 
When they do this semi-melting think is it press into big blocks or slabs
Cos it sometimes has the aprearance it has been

Yes correct. The main motive initially was for smuggling (it reduces the air mass in crystals) but as its so easy to "fuse" salt crystals it quickly became the done thing for appeal and marketing purposes. Due to this awful simplicity it is a very common occurance amongst wanna bee MDMA gangsters.

Unfortunately at this critical fusing stage if you play your cards right (ie in melting point selections) you can add addulterants and cuts just like with powders. Because many users know nothing of this practice "Moon Rocks" frequently trick people. To be honest reverting back to the start of this thread this is why I get so narked when I hear of a poor user who has just been sold some 99.7% "moon rocks" because as you will see from below invariabley they are lucky if the fuzed salt is 40-50% pure.

I personally like to put ALL the information out there even if it risks a few getting confused.

Anyway without further-a-do here is a guide on how to be the star of the Rave and become Captain Moonrock

MDMA_Moon_Rocks.jpg


How to make an MDMA Brick with 1kG of MDMA or how to make "Moon Rocks"

(1) Place MDMA Salt in Flexible Silicon Mold

(2) Place mold in oven with temperature set to just above MDMA melting point approx 150oC

(Be careful about the temperature as this will vaporize the MDMA salt above the MP. Oven temperature gauges are notoriousley bad. Lazer thermometer advised ;) )

(3) Once the all the salt has melted turn off oven and allow oven to cool slowly to room temperature

(If you remove the brick from the oven immediately it will cool too quickly and crack)

(4) Once the mold is at room temperature and the salt has resolidified remove from oven

(5) Using disposable gloves push the newly formed cast out of the silicon mold

You can either make your own mold or buy ready made molds from your local cooking store

There is no limit to what shape you might like to make

Warning! many users think if your sourced MDMA crystal is solid then it means pure MDMA. This is bullshit. Reason in step (1) of this process add Methylsulfonylmethane which will melt and diffuze into the brick and you now have more "MDMA" Crystal catch my drift ;)

Because the Methylsulfonylmethane has a melting point lower than MDMA (150oC) it just dissolves into the brick. Very easy technique and as you can see not above the limits of your typical street dealer bozo.

If the MDMA is white you cut with Methylsulfonylmethane (MPA)
If the MDMA is brown you cut with Maltose (brown sugar)

I have heard users complaining about fused crystals that are a mixture of brown with traces of white. This is when a street dealer has used a cut that has a melting point higher than the MDMA. The cut just sinks into the brick not melting. If the MDMA is yellow or brown you can see the merge of the two different compounds and hence the brown and white mix.

If someone wanted to be a complete tool you could also add an adulterant at process (1) such as a piperazine to make up for the lack of MDMA with the MPA or maltose fusion. All you would need to do is select an RC that has a melting point below 150oC. A nasty idea but please be aware this is how you can polute MDMA "moon rocks" very easily.

Moral of the story once again - test kit - dont assume MDMA "moon rock" is pure cause as proven in many cases the street dealer bozo is always trying to trick you.


Voila an MDMA Brick!
(this ones actually meth but you get the idea)

10_Dec_Meth_Brick_Solo.jpg
 
Last edited:
My friend has aquired a big rock of mdma. It is one that was melted using this process. Part of the outside of the rock is round (it was done in a round bin and compressed).

My question is. Does this process decrease purity? It was done with pure 84% mdma.

This rock is damn hard! Almost like a real rock. Takes some real force to crush.
 
Last edited:
My question is. Does this process decrease purity? It was done with pure 84% mdma.

This rock is damn hard! Almost like a real rock. Takes some real force to crush.

LOL do you mean 84% + 16% :D

I obviousley cant comment on such dastardley deads..

However, if you were to want to melt some sucrose and make a toffee brick as long as you were to maintain the melting point of the sucrose at 186oC and no higher then little product will be vaped. The higher the temperature got above this the more damage would occur.

Hence why you would want to monitor the oven temperature with a laser thermometer or equiviliant.

Applying heat to a specific temperature and then applying pressure from all sides at the correct moment would be quite a tricky task to figure out.

You would then also have to maintain the pressure until the product solidified. A very tricky task me thinks.

Possible but would need something custom built or industrial to achieve.

The theoretical methods discussed above are more likely to occur in the real world I would guess. Once something solidifies again it is usually pretty solid.

The methods discussed above are just theories to dispell myths about moon rocks. I have no real life experience in such activities :)
 
Last edited:
Post edited. Can you edit and delete my quote as well. Yes please advise on my question of purity. Thanks.
 
Saying its 84% pure in a sense is true. It only contains 84% mass of the active CNS ingredient.

Saying its 84% base is not correct. It is only base in its purest form with no bond (ie its free).
ahem, not to be rude, but do you understand what base is? Base IS the active CNS ingredient.

100% PURE MDMA HCl = 84% MDMA base.

Saying something is less than 100% "pure" implies that there are impurities, and that further purification process can be undergone.

Saying 100% MDMA HCl = 84% MDMA base is correct. Base is the unbound molecule. 84% is the amount of BASE in the MDMA HCl molecule. Obviously it's not in "freebase" when it's bound as an HCl salt. But the BASE MDMA molecule still exists in the HCl salt, in a portion of 84% by molecular mass. It's easily separable from the HCl salt.

You can keep arguing this for sake of having the last word, but 100% pure MDMA, as a consumer product is 84% MDMA molecular "base".

Saying "you're MDMA is not 100% pure, it's only 84%" is semantics. MDMA in it's purest consumable form is 100% MDMA HCl. 84% of the molecular mass is in MDMA base, bound to the 16% HCl ion.

Again, let's define: purity:

Purity is the absence of impurity or contaminants in a substance.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/purity

HCl ion is neither an 'impurity' nor 'contaminant'. It is a simple molecular bond added to make the "base" more stable in a regular consumer environment.

Adjective:
pure (comparative purer or more pure, superlative purest or most pure)
free of flaws or imperfections; unsullied
free of foreign material or pollutants
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pure#English

Again, we are not chemists. Nobody here is messing with the freebase. MDMA, as far as for harm reduction sake from a strictly consumer end, is 100% pure at 84% MDMA base and 16% HCl ion.

Saying that 100% pure is only 84% is plain false. This myth gets repeated over and over, and I rarely ever see anyone here ever say the word "base" or HCl in the same sentence as "84% pure MDMA".

The 84% number should ONLY be referred to with the terms "base" & "HCl" in the same sentence, because that's precisely what the number refers to. But this will be repeated over and over as "MDMA can only be 84% pure" without the terms "HCl" or "base" in the sentence. That is WRONG to say "84%" without saying "HCl" and "MDMA base".

futura said:
I am not sure if I agree with this. I personally think its quite simple. Any educated 16 year old could get their head around this with a bit of guidance and learning.
How educated is the average American 16 year old lurker of this forum? The average 16 year old here copies "the smart kid" in high school chemistry, does not even know what molecular mass or HCl ions are, and does not care to learn about this. They are simply interested in learning some basic shit about taking "E"/"XTC", staying safe at raves etc. They do not have the mental capacity to read about HCl ions and chemistry.

Half of them get confused when you tell them MDMA releases serotonin and downregulates the SERT, which is why long breaks are needed. Explaining molecular weight and HCl salts is pointless, and just going to be paraphrased to mean "MDMA can only be 84%"

Imagine a time when edata could contain isomer ratio / salt type and all the mG quantities of everything in the pill.

I think it would certainly explain a few more things than the HCL assumption world we currently find ourselves in.
I could imagine a time, but when will that be (if ever?) The DEA only allows Edata to post ratios of base active chemicals to eachother for US pills. Streetwork has a different system perhaps. But they are unclear how they calculate the mg's, salts, etc. So we can just assume for dosing sake, they mean HCl.

At the end of it all does + or - 16% dose make much difference? I dont think its life and death but I also think its something for people to be aware of 16 year olds included
Maybe not life or death, but at what point do we draw the line? Perhaps 16% doesn't seem like it's a big deal, but what if the person already consumes 400-500 mg at once, wants to bump it up 16%? So then they take 580 mg, instead of 500? What point does the dosage cross the threshold of 'overdose'. What point does it cross the threshold of hyperthermia? Where do we draw the line?
 
How educated is the average American 16 year old lurker of this forum? They do not have the mental capacity to read about HCl ions and chemistry.

Uuuummmmmm..... :? :?



84% should never be used though. If I'm talking about absolutely pure MDMA, I say 100%. There is no reason to use 84%, ever.... especially not on a forum like this. Everyone takes MDMA HCL, every single time.

You have like 3 forensic tests that say they found a different salt, and no one gets the freebase... when 99% of MDMA that has been tested is MDMA HCL, you use that as the standard.



1 in a billion lumps of coals can be a diamond, but you won't hear people calling coal diamonds... even if they are both made of carbon
 
Uuuummmmmm..... :? :?



84% should never be used though. If I'm talking about absolutely pure MDMA, I say 100%. There is no reason to use 84%, ever.... especially not on a forum like this. Everyone takes MDMA HCL, every single time.

You have like 3 forensic tests that say they found a different salt, and no one gets the freebase... when 99% of MDMA that has been tested is MDMA HCL, you use that as the standard.



1 in a billion lumps of coals can be a diamond, but you won't hear people calling coal diamonds... even if they are both made of carbon

^ hey folley, I know you're a young'un ;) & I think you would wholeheartedly agree you are definitely well above average in your age group for your comprehension of molecular chemistry, ionic bonds, salts etc.

I think what you're saying is that you agree, and that the 84% is incorrect in regards to purity

It confuses more people on here than it educates. People who actually learn from this number have a genuine interest in chemistry and how molecular mass and calculated, salts etc. and like you said, from a consumer point of view, 84% should never be used.

The only people fucking with freebase would be producers, not consumers. 99.99999999% of people here are on the consuming end.
 
ahem, not to be rude, but do you understand what base is? Base IS the active CNS ingredient.

I assumed you meant base as in freebase.

Definition - Freebase or free base refers to the pure basic form of an amine, as opposed to its salt form.

To decypher what an isolated base means I looked up the definition.

Definition - A base in chemistry is a substance that can accept hydrogen ions (protons) or more generally, donate a pair of valence electrons.

Definition - A Base or Alkali (in chemistry ) means having a pH (on the pH scale) of more than 7 out of 1-14 (7 being neutral, and less than 7 being acid). It is a substance that can accept protons.

defenition - A base is a chemical species that donates electrons or hydroxide ions or that accepts protons.

Once the MDMA molecule has accepted the proton from the acid I dont know if it remains a base? i dont know if you are right or wrong?

How do you define base simply?

but if the purpose of you referring to base is to simplify things then I might disagree with this plan.

This is definitely getting out of the domain of the typical user particularly if we are referring to very specific chemistry terms in this way. we are now getting into the realms of defining the difference between bases and freebases. That is fine but if in your argument you suggest I am being pedantic with the 84% issue then I might suggest this is also going in the same direction.

100% PURE MDMA HCl = 84% MDMA base.

if your definition is correct then yes this is true. But as stated above this is not making things simple which I assume is the basis for your argument.

Saying something is less than 100% "pure" implies that there are impurities, and that further purification process can be undergone.

Agreed - if you want to make MDMA 100% pure the acid molecule is the impurity.

And yes a further purification can be done by bringing the MDMA back to freebase form.

Saying 100% MDMA HCl = 84% MDMA base is correct.

I dont know about the reference to base. But yes this makes sense.

Base is the unbound molecule.

Interesting you say this. thats how I interpret base. The only issue is the molecule is bonded. I dont know if this still makes the MDMA molecule a base?

84% is the amount of BASE in the MDMA HCl molecule.

Dont understand what you mean?

Obviously it's not in "freebase" when it's bound as an HCl salt. But the BASE MDMA molecule still exists in the HCl salt, in a portion of 84% by molecular mass. It's easily separable from the HCl salt.

Makes sense

You can keep arguing this for sake of having the last word,

Its not a last word issue its an issue of what information we present to the typical user. The outcome of this will influence my HR advice I give out.

but 100% pure MDMA as a consumer product is 84% MDMA molecular "base".

For HCL yes. This rule applies as long as we mean HCL otherwise not true.

Saying "you're MDMA is not 100% pure, it's only 84%" is semantics.

Yes we are effectively looking into the meaning of this comment.

MDMA in it's purest consumable form is 100% MDMA HCl. 84% of the molecular mass is in MDMA base, bound to the 16% HCl ion.

Its a relatively complex way of saying it but yes this is correct.

Again, we are not chemists. Nobody here is messing with the freebase. MDMA, as far as for harm reduction sake from a strictly consumer end, is 100% pure at 84% MDMA base and 16% HCl ion.

Were not messing with freebase but it does exist. Maybe lets see what streetworx say.

Saying that 100% pure is only 84% is plain false. This myth gets repeated over and over, and I rarely ever see anyone here ever say the word "base" or HCl in the same sentence as "84% pure MDMA".

Its not false. its not a myth. You dont need to say either base or hcl it only contains 84% of active content.

The 84% number should ONLY be referred to with the terms "base" & "HCl" in the same sentence, because that's precisely what the number refers to. But this will be repeated over and over as "MDMA can only be 84% pure" without the terms "HCl" or "base" in the sentence. That is WRONG to say "84%" without saying "HCl" and "MDMA base".

If this is some kind of simplification process you have me baffled?? i think we are either saying 84% MDMA + Acid or we are just saying MDMA HCL I assumed that was the basis of the discussion.

How educated is the average American 16 year old lurker of this forum? The average 16 year old here copies "the smart kid" in high school chemistry, does not even know what molecular mass or HCl ions are, and does not care to learn about this. They are simply interested in learning some basic shit about taking "E"/"XTC", staying safe at raves etc. They do not have the mental capacity to read about HCl ions and chemistry.

Half of them get confused when you tell them MDMA releases serotonin and downregulates the SERT, which is why long breaks are needed. Explaining molecular weight and HCl salts is pointless, and just going to be paraphrased to mean "MDMA can only be 84%"

Well were not just talking about Americans of course. I still think this is a little unfair. I cant say what someone may or may not understand. I dont think however this is a good argument to limit any form of information. Your argument is kind of censorship based in a way. Not good me feels.

I could imagine a time, but when will that be (if ever?) The DEA only allows Edata to post ratios of base active chemicals to eachother for US pills. Streetwork has a different system perhaps. But they are unclear how they calculate the mg's, salts, etc. So we can just assume for dosing sake, they mean HCl.

For now we are assuming but lets hope this gets cleared up soon enough. I have the relevant emails out there just a waiting game. I think the outcome of this will be quite interesting.

Maybe not life or death, but at what point do we draw the line? Perhaps 16% doesn't seem like it's a big deal, but what if the person already consumes 400-500 mg at once, wants to bump it up 16%? So then they take 580 mg, instead of 500? What point does the dosage cross the threshold of 'overdose'. What point does it cross the threshold of hyperthermia? Where do we draw the line?

Yes valid point. I guess see what edata come back with. will be interesting to see. Might change things a bit..
 
Last edited:
Once the MDMA molecule has accepted the proton from the acid I dont know if it remains a base? i dont know if you are right or wrong?
It does not remain a base, but once it turns into "the active CNS ingredient" it is considered "base" MDMA molecule.

Well were not just talking about Americans of course. I still think this is a little unfair. I cant say what someone may or may not understand. I dont think however this is a good argument to limit any form of information. Your argument is kind of censorship based in a way.
You can do a factual analysis on BL's traffic, and you will find the vast majority is from the US. All I'm saying is despite the rest of the world being literate in chemistry, I am ashamed to say I don't have that much faith in the average chemistry knowledge of the typical raver kid in the US who lurks on this site.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bluelight.ru#

^ just the facts on traffic. It seems AUS has a lot of traffic too. But this chemistry discussion may be a little bit advanced for average users, and may lead to confusion and misinterpretation.
 
^^ Very fair points above.

To forward this debate to stage 2. I will await the info coming back from edata or streetworx. I would assume the answer for one would be the same for the other.

Been a pleasure debating with you Simply . Lets hope theres some content in all that lot of interest to others.

I will update as soon as possible :)
 
sorry to bump a relatively old thread, but the other night my sister said she got some moonrocks and the package said made in amsterdam or some shit. is there an RC on the market being sold as moonrocks?> u know kinda like the way they sell all the other rc;s and such>? i woudn think a dealer would write made in amsterdam on a little plastic bag or something. but from the effect she described it sounded like E but it wasnt speedy she said, had jaw cleniching but her heart wasnt racing.

i know this is practically asking " i had a yellow powder i found under a sink and took it and im fucked up, was it lsd?" i just wanted to know if anyone has heard of an rc being packaged and sold as moonrocks. thanks.

if not and its as good as she said it is and it IS realy just fused MDMA salts, i might have to try some.
 
Hello medicine I think your best bet would be to try a variety of reagent tests and try and narrow it down this way.

To be honest the term moonrock is used to try and indicate quality or strength. It wouldnt surprise me if RC suppliers are now making "moonrocks" to look like MDMA "moonrocks".

i woudnt think a dealer would write made in amsterdam on a little plastic bag or something

I think they would write Kermit the frog on the baggie if it would some how add appeal to the product. Majority of dealers these days are totally immoral. They care about nothing other than green.
 
I read somewhere I cannot mention that all "moon rocks" are actually 100% pure MDMA HCL that is cut down to 85% MDMA HCL, and that is re-rocked into larger chunks that make is seem purer and more desirable to the average user... when in reality it's an impure product
 
I think a "moon rock" can be almost anything. From pure fused HCL salts to hydrated "watered down" crystals to a nasty fused cut. Some of the stuff I have seen of recent on here with black traces in it looks very sketchey. Certain cuts with lower MPs than MDMA might burnt or char in this way.
 
I read somewhere I cannot mention that all "moon rocks" are actually 100% pure MDMA HCL that is cut down to 85% MDMA HCL, and that is re-rocked into larger chunks that make is seem purer and more desirable to the average user... when in reality it's an impure product

It sounds unlikely that all "moonrocks" are made like that.
 
Hello medicine I think your best bet would be to try a variety of reagent tests and try and narrow it down this way.

To be honest the term moonrock is used to try and indicate quality or strength. It wouldnt surprise me if RC suppliers are now making "moonrocks" to look like MDMA "moonrocks".


I think they would write Kermit the frog on the baggie if it would some how add appeal to the product. Majority of dealers these days are totally immoral. They care about nothing other than green.


thats the thing, she said the guy bought it from a shop in amsterdam and it had i guess dutch written all over it. im thinking they dont sell MDMA over the counter in holland, especially not in professionally printed packages. she said .2 was going for 4o and a g for 2oo. From what she said it had all the ear marks of real MDMA, the empathy the soul clearing, jaw cleniching and eye wiggles. are there any RC's that do that? plus the duration was about 6 hours which is on par for real MDMA.

ive had a rough past few years and would really like to have an MDMA therapy session, id never in a million years take a pressed pill, bc just like my sister said there was no jittery come up, her and her bf were swinging in a hammock and soon they felt weightless, huge pupils, no visuals, just mind and body.

sorry for all the questions, you obviously know what you are talking about so sorry for picking your brain. i guess my main point, any RC's that are sold in packages in the DAM called moonrocks with those effects?

ive had molly plent of times, even stuff that looks like these new fangled "moonrocks" all they were was brown crystals slightly crushed, almost like a pack of raw sugar and it was DEF amazing quality MDMA
 
they don't sell MDMA over the counter in Amsterdam as far as I'm aware.
 
Top