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    Serotonin syndrome from mdma 
    #1
    Greenlighter Phat Gatmasta's Avatar
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    This question is out of pure curiousity actually.
    What are the limits of getting serotonin syndrome?
    Basically what must one do to actually bring that upon themselves?
    I've had my share of rolls in my days. I went through phases and ive done
    more mdma then I could explain, also mixing it with alcohol and other substances.
    I am sure alot of us understand what I am saying. I am sure alot of
    Us has done an unspeakable amount of mdma you know?
    Is serotonin syndrom an often occurence? Ive never known anyone
    Nor have I heard any stories about people getting it.
    I would love to read a detailed answer as to why and how this could happen.
    Please and thank you

    -Aaron (Phat Gatmasta)
    =]
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    Serotonin syndrome is sometimes used by misinformed people as a "catch all" for adverse drug reactions. Yes, you can get serotonin syndrome from consuming massive amounts of MDMA, but most of the time its due to MDMA mixed with other drug(s). Individual reactions vary a lot.

    There's no possible way for us to know what dosage of chemicals one would have to take for them to get serotonin syndrome. Certain combinations of drugs increase the risk of serotonin syndrome. But, because everybody's brain is different, there's no way for us to know for sure.

    Again, and I stress this: "Serotonin syndrome" is generally overused and widely misunderstood. Just because you had a bad reaction to a drug or a combination of drugs doesn't automatically mean you had serotonin syndrome.

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    #3
    Bluelight Crew Folley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeighborhoodThreat View Post
    Again, and I stress this: "Serotonin syndrome" is generally overused and widely misunderstood. Just because you had a bad reaction to a drug or a combination of drugs doesn't automatically mean you had serotonin syndrome.
    Yup.

    Serotonin Syndrome is hardly ever caused by simply using MDMA too often, that's 5-HT downregulation that you're thinking of...


    SS is almost always caused by taking MDMA (or a substance like it) and SSRIs, MAOIs, DXM, tramadol or many other chemicals at the same time. It can be caused by other things, but MDMA induced SS is almost always a bad reaction between two drugs.




    Read up on what SS is, and take a look at the drugs that cause it. It may save your life one day.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome
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    #4
    Take it from someone that has firmly diagnosed himself as suffering a severe 'Serotonin Syndrome' reaction, it IS quite different from the typical MDMA experience.

    But the intensity is the key difference.
    The actual symptoms and their progression is VERY similar to the events that normally occur while using MDMA.
    It is like a mirror image of 'rolling' - extreme cortisol response being the greatest and most obvious link.
    But I would expect the cortisol response of Serotonin Syndrome to be much more extreme and enduring, which is saying a lot since 'normal' MDMA use causes an 800% increase in cortisol release!

    Think of cortisol as the brain's defense mechanism against serotonin - which is known to damage receptors and transporters in high amounts.
    The brain produces serotonin and cortisol in tandem - so a massive increase in serotonin reliably leads to the other.
    The 'comeup' I felt during serotonin syndrome was FAR more intense and frightening than ANYTHING I have ever felt in my life, and I expect this to remain true for the rest of my life. I cannot express firmly enough how much of a nightmare it really is.

    As euphoric as MDMA is, SS is torturous.
    It is the evil twin of rolling!

    For clinical Serotonin Syndrome to occur, most people have to use two or more offending agents.
    That means that an SSRI, St. John's Wort, or especially an MAOI carry a much higher risk.
    I have seen more reports of SS from tramadol and Effexor on BL than from any other combination.

    But MDMA is one of the most POWERFUL serotonin releasing agents widely used, so it can actually increase the risk of SS substantially.
    It has even been reported that preloading or postloading with 5HTP has lead to the horrible 'syndrome'.

    The fact is that the term itself is very revealing - 'syndrome' means that medicine and science have a very limited grasp on the actual events occurring.
    They know that loss of speech, extreme anxiety, fever, stiff muscles, destruction of skeletal muscle tissue, extreme abdominal pain, chest pain, tachycardia, and fear of death...these are all common symptoms experienced by victims of this 'syndrome'.
    When severe, these symptoms reach such a point that kidney failure, liver failure, swelling around the brain, heart-attack, and stroke have occurred.
    In YOUNG healthy subjects...

    They also know that tapping spinal fluid will demonstrate a higher level of serotonin metabolite which proves serotonin is at high levels, not to mention brain scans that demonstrate higher brainstem serotonin production.
    This is the definition of Serotonin 'Syndrome' - the constellation of symptoms I described PLUS high levels of brain serotonin activity.

    This is a pretty limited definition.
    I have always said that other medical conditions are much more thoroughly understood.
    If you break your arm you have a 'fractured ulna', not 'bone syndrome'.

    Do not allow medical terminology to lead you to the belief that the CNS is somehow within the grasp of modern medicine.
    Because it is not.
    And even the most informed specialists that study the brain will admit that the exact role of serotonin is VERY hard to understand.
    It plays a role in a VAST number of brain functions, from memory to planning, language, emotion, sexuality, DIGESTION, body temperature...
    And it does all these things without being the direct cause of ANY of them.

    It is the great moderator of the brain.
    The indirect commander and coordinator of a shocking number of brain functions.

    But its PRIMARY function, and its root, is in the gut.
    Serotonin is the 'serum' that 'tones' or contracts the smooth muscle of the intestines.
    And the brain evolved around the first nervous system in the GI.

    To understand Serotonin 'Syndrome' scientists need to more fully grasp the intersection of two vast universes.
    So the question you are asking is quite difficult to answer.

    But true 'clinical' SS where the symptoms reach emergency status, is indeed rare.
    Often there is an overlap of MDMA plus another substance.
    But not always, and alcohol seems to make it more likely to occur - not surprising since alcohol kills nerve growth factors and anti-oxidants in the brain.

    The PRIMARY risk factor for SS is DOSAGE.
    Taking high or repeated doses of MDMA causes greater depletion of serotonin and subsequent neurotoxic damage to cortical SERT and receptor down-regulation. This is thought to be caused by a nasty dopamine metabolite making it into dried up SERTs (transporters).
    This causes the mitochondria to spill out of membranes and form PEROXIDE with the lipids (fat) that your brain is constructed with!

    Keep in mind that a controlled version of this process may be occurring during 'normal' use.
    And this is the great debate that some people still image to be taking place.
    The truth is that most scientists have accepted that research demonstrates detectable cognitive changes in even moderate MDMA users.
    The effects take time to become apparent, with speech and other tests only showing change after many months or over a year.
    It is thought that MDMA is causing cortical 'damage' or changes in MOST users that are thoroughly tested.

    The good news is that the effects are normally moderate as well.
    But the conclusion is unavoidable - MDMA is causing change in the highest regions of the brain, likely permanent, to MOST users.
    And for this reason, as well as my own intimate experience with the symptoms and progression of SS, that I assert the following:

    Taking MDMA is a controlled, predictable, and euphoric version of Serotonin Syndrome.

    It causes MANY of the same symptoms seen in 'clinical' SS, including high cortisol levels, anxiety, raised body temperature, tense muscles, difficulty urinating due to ADH release, abdominal discomfort, insomnia....the list goes on.
    The difference is the intensity, extent, and outcome of the progression of symptoms.

    I believe that in true SS, unlike typical MDMA experiences, the imbalance of dopamine does not re-balance.
    And the higher brain, especially the prefrontal cortex, are not properly activated.

    The transmission of serotonin is limited to lower portions of the brain, causing a severe shift of dopamine out of the frontal lobes.
    With typical MDMA use, serotonin does indeed inhibit dopamine, but then it is RELEASED to surge forth and cause the most intense euphoria.

    The positive aspect is missing with SS, likely caused by a physical process that prevents serotonin and dopamine from reaching the higher brain, and instead the energy that would normally make MDMA a positive experience is transformed into what could be considered the greatest suffering that a human mind can experience.

    The 'serum' that 'tones' the intestines plays a vast and widely unknown role in brain function.
    It inhibits not only dopamine transmission (except in the primary reward pathway), but it also inhibits neuronal function of many kinds.
    It is a leash - an inhibitory system - that the brain grows around.
    It also has the effect of INCREASING blood flow at the same time that it inhibits neurons!
    The entire brain is densely innervated by the nerves that extend to and dominate the intestines.

    Perhaps it is the intestines that are innervating the brain...

    The wide reach of the brain-gut circuitry defies explanation for now.
    And so does the true meaning of Serotonin 'Syndrome'.
    But this BL member believes that all of us are enduring SS each time we roll.

    And even if it never really turns on you, because you have self control and know how to limit your dosage and space properly, you are still causing minor 'damage' in the highest cortex circuitry.
    If you chose not to limit dosage and space properly, the data is CLEAR - most MDMA users discontinue before 100 doses and even 'heavy' users tend to stop around 200-300. This is pretty important, because other drug users can use thousands of times before reaching the conclusion that they should stop themselves. Some never do.

    I hope this helped.
    It has been a while since I posted.

    Life is still hard for me, 20 months post SS.
    I can't believe it hasn't stopped yet, but the anxiety portion is pretty much GONE by now.
    Now I find myself struggling cognitively, including with language and mathematics.
    Just as the research suggests...

    Whatever you do, take less than 200mg per session.
    Do NOT redose.
    Space your rolls by 90 days minimum.
    Do NOT drink with MDMA.
    Take lots of Vitamin C.
    And avoid other serotonin 'agents' around the time of rolling (up to a week before and after).

    Oh yeah - keep it cold.
    Lowering body temperature is the primary defense against Serotonin 'Syndrome', and it is shown to directly lower MDMA toxicity in a number of animal studies.

    Good luck!
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    #5
    Bluelight Crew Folley's Avatar
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    Good to see you around FBC



    I swear man you need to write a book, you've already put enough pages on BL to write one
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    #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folley View Post
    Good to see you around FBC



    I swear man you need to write a book, you've already put enough pages on BL to write one
    +1 Agreed.

    FBC, your posts are all spot-on. True HR.

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    #7
    Always learning from your post man. I agree especially with that last part. I used to be kick-ass at math, taking calculus in high school doing good and shit. I'm literally scared of doing addition and subtraction in my head nowadays cause I always fuck it up. Great time to be a chem major in college right..... at least my memory doesn't seem half as bad as my math skills, but even that has taken its toll.
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    #8
    I'd like to explain my experience! Which I have shared closely with FBC. And he has provided much needed reasurence though my recovery! I binged on MDMA over a weekend, november 26th 2011! I dont know how much I took but I am not joking when Im talking over 4grams of as pure as you like mdma! I only came up properlly once and that was the firt bomb I took. I had taken coke before this and thought mdma was the same, I had very little and poor understanding about the drug! I wish I had been taught the risks properlly in school. not just told that you can die first time! They should be more detailed! I went to work the day after the binge feeling fine, untill the next day when I crashed HARD. I felt like I was in another world! I cant describe the feeling... I just felt so not normal. but stupidly I smoked weed as i thought this would help, another bit of poor understanding of my nervous system.

    For weeks I was scared to go to bed. As soon as I would drop to sleep I would fall into the scariest night mare you can imagin, basically I actually thought I was dying in my own bed, I have never been so scared in my entire life. and I was alone. All I could do was scale the internet to see what was wrong with me, I did this for weeks and weeks every night. All the stories saying your seretonin will regenerate within two weeks. mine did not.

    I felt severe anxiety ALL day long. My body was constantly tense, worried and scared. At work I had to go to the toilets and cry my eyes out. I thought I had ruined my life. I beleived I would never feel normal again. I moved back home to live my parents, I coudnt live with my flat mate any more. as much as i wanted to, the flat reminded me of the binge and i coudnt escape it. Being with my family brought releif but only moderate. There wasnt a day when i didnt cry, it was the only thing that made a small difference in how i felt.

    Sleeping didnt go back to normal for months, now I can sleep hapily but a couple of months ago every night would entail another scarey and twisted dream. Each week my symtoms would change. The worst being my vision. I wouldnt be able to look at somethign with out my eyes wanting to roll away. I didnt know what was up with me until I spoke with FBC on here. and this was the first night I was back in with my parents. Only then did I realise what damage I had done. I had seen the doctors twice and is only wordse were, you need to find ways to relax.

    Working infront of a computer was so diffucult, I cant explain the vision disturbances. But they were horrible. Eventially, after exersicing HARD 3 times a week and doing weights every night my anxiety and worry subsided. I cannot remember when. and now I wish I had written a diary of my symtoms. The list of things I was feeling could go on forever: sharp pains in my head, legs and arms! weird dreams, could not sleep, head pressure and stress which made going to work almost impossible.

    I am still recovering now, I see floaters in my vision every day which is crippling me the most, aswell as visual snow! the snow doesnt bother me but the floaters are very distracting. I first noticed them in May this year and they have got worse ever since them, although I am not letting them ruin my life like some people have that i have read about.

    I am just thankful that the anxiety, stress and deppression has subsided. I feel good in my self as long as i dont let the floaters bother me. After ll I can see perfectly!
    I hope any one that reads this realises how dangerious mdma can be. granted I took a stupid amount, I know this, but I didnt know that then, as in a night I have taken much more than 4 grams of coke. I was just not aware of what to do, and neither were my friends. We had half an ounce of the stuff between 5 people. It was intended to sell but nothign was sold. just 4 bags went down the toilet.

    I also hope that any one that reads this that may be going though hell.... to know that it does get better and only time can heal. as well as a healthy life style.

    Thanks, needed to get that off my chest again.
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    #9
    Hey Papoose,
    That sounds nasty and I’m glad you’re feeling better. I’m not sure what you are describing is serotonin syndrome though. Serotonin Syndrome is an acute condition which should pass quickly once the drugs are out of you system. What you seem to be describing might be the cause of MDMA induced damage to serotonin axons.

    I had a relatively minor case of serotonin syndrome due to a very stupid drug mixture (no MDMA involved). I had all the standard symptoms such as super-fast heartbeat, diarrhea, nausea, and large swings in blood pressure. It came in waves and a few times I almost lost consciousness. My normal blood pressure is right at 120/80 rock solid and I remember seeing one reading at something like 90/55 with a 130 resting heart rate. I was dizzy, had trouble walking, but luckily I didn’t have hyperthermia.

    Anyway, after the first 12 hours I was feeling a lot better and 24 hours later most all the symptoms were gone. It still took 3 or 4 days to feel like myself again but I had no lasting problem. From everything I have read this is the usual case with serotonin syndrome. All the literature I have read says that after 24 hours the effects should have abated. That was certainly my experience.

    I think people are assuming that any issues after taking MDMA are serotonin syndrome but that is not necessarily the case. MDMA is believed to cause damage to serotonin cell axons at certain doses but that is not the same as serotonin syndrome. Of course you could have both but they are still distinct things.

    TL;DR Everything I have read about serotonin syndrome describes it as an acute, serious, but short condition. That was my experience and I had no lasting effects. I think what people are describing as serotonin syndrome is really an effect of MDMA toxicity.

    Just my thoughts, so you guys let me know if you think I am off base.
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    #10
    I don't think Papoose entered this thread to claim that he experienced SS.
    However, you entered the thread to argue that he did NOT...

    My opinion is that the 'normal' MDMA experience, neurotoxicity, and Serotonin Syndrome ALL have an overlap.

    You are correct - SS that occurs apart from MDMA use tends to resolve within 24-36 hours!
    This is because MOST serotonergic substances - virtually ALL of them - are FAR less potent in the serotonin releasing capacities.
    MDMA is labeled a 'neurotoxin' by countless research studies due to this very powerful property.

    It goes a BIG step beyond that of SSRIs...
    It reverses the transporter pump, instead of just halting certain ones.

    So SS from medications and SS from MDMA are drastically different experiences..
    But again, Papoose is not here to claim he experienced SS.
    He probably found this thread simply because he saw my post, and he found my guidance through a difficult time in his life to be of great value.

    And he too feels the calling to warn others: MDMA is far more dangerous than is widely believed.
    The message is received Papoose, by someone.

    I am glad that your experience with SS resided so quickly.
    I remember reading SO many times that, if treated promptly, Serotonin Syndrome often results in NO NEUROLOGICAL SEQUALAE.

    This simply means that if supportive care is given quickly, such as lowering body temperature and withdrawing the 'offending' medications....possibly supporting electrolyte and kidney function....that MOST patients will NOT have serious long-term effects.

    GREAT, for them.

    Time and again I saw this in medical studies of SS.
    "If everything goes well"...

    MDMA is special.
    It causes a prolactin release that takes WEEKS to occur with SSRIs!
    And it does this in an hour and a half...

    Ok.

    I think I have said enough.
    It should be clear that SS is not just a 'short' and brief condition, and that it CAN lead to long-term and SERIOUS neurological side-effects.
    In other words, it can destroy your soul.

    If such a thing exists, I believe it arises from the connection between the body and mind.
    And the intestines are wired straight into your highest cognitive pathways.
    This is the circuitry that MDMA relies upon for its massive and 'magical' effects.

    Here is an example of an SSRI causing SEVERE 'neurological sequalae' in a single dose.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_4gLZrqlik

    Two minutes in he describes waking up the first morning after his first dose.
    He knew 'immediately that I had poisoned myself from taking the Lexapro...my life was forever changed, looking back it appears as if I had had a severe reaction known as Serotonin Syndrome..."

    Damn.
    Be careful with MDMA.
    Respect it.

    And listen to those who spend their precious time, during the hardest time of their lives, warning those willing to read these threads on BL.

    Surely the youtube video, and mine and Papoose's story, are the exception not the rule.
    But doesn't our experience, and ALL the research on MDMA, prove that something bad is happening to everyone that uses MDMA?

    Even if they don't sense it?
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    #11
    No I'm sure you are right. I Didnt have serotonin syndrome. But what I had I feel was probably worse, with months of constant suffering! I dispise drug use and will never ever touch a single drug agAin. Be it weed or even cigarettes! My body is a temple now!!!
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    #12
    Well, let me say first what inspired me to post in this thread was not to belittle either your or papoose’s experiences. It sounds like you guys have both had a rough time. It was also not my goal to trumpet the safety of MDMA. I believe there is ample evidence that MDMA damages the serotonin system, at least at high or frequent doses. Damage to brain systems can have very negative subjective effects. Due to these concerns I think we both agree that people who still wish to use MDMA should do so with extreme caution. I think on all this we agree on this. Of course agreeing doesn’t make for an interesting conversation so let’s see if there is anything we don’t agree on.

    The purpose of my post was just to say that serotonin syndrome and MDMA induced neurotoxicity are not the same thing. The reason I thought this was important is I see a bunch of posts on several different boards that seem to associate any MDMA problem with Serotonin Syndrome. I often see posts like “I binged on MDMA three weeks ago and now I’m depressed. Do I have Serotonin Syndrome?” In my non-expert opinion things like depression, brain zaps, and sleep problems are generally a sign of low serotonin which is why there are often found in people who stop taking SSRIs. Serotonin Syndrome is caused by massively too much serotonin and I think it is important to make the distinction. Of course someone can have an acute Serotonin Syndrome and then have lasting effect from low serotonin due to damage caused. My point was simply that it is possible to have Serotonin Syndrome without major neurological problems and major neurological problems without having Serotonin Syndrome.

    The one other point you made that I don’t necessarily agree with is ”doesn't our experience, and ALL the research on MDMA, prove that something bad is happening to everyone that uses MDMA?” I don’t think that is necessarily true. First off let me say that I am NOT an MDMA advocate, nor do I recommend people take it. As I stated earlier in this post, I agree that there is ample evidence that large doses of MDMA cause serotonin cell damage. However, with many toxins, damage is only caused when a certain threshold is reached. For example, take Tylenol (APAP). It is a nasty liver toxin that is the cause of the vast majority of acute liver failure in the industrialized word. Its damage is massive and irreversible, yet millions of people use Tylenol in small doses all the time with no ill effects because they keep the dose under the toxic threshold.

    Now the fact is that we don’t know where the damage threshold for MDMA is in humans, or really animal, at this point. A typical dose used to intentionally induce massive damage in rodents varies but is often something like 20mg/kg every 2 hours for 4 doses. That kind of dosing regimen has been proven to cause significant and obvious damage. However, another study gave rodents, if I remember correctly, 1.5mg/kg once every two weeks for a number of months and were able to detect no damage. That dosesn’t prove that no damage was caused of course, but it simply shows an inability to measure any damage if it did exist.

    My point is that it is entirely possible that a human taking 100mg of MDMA twice a year is not causing any lasting damage at all if it is below what the body’s defenses can manage. Now where this line is research has not determined and I think it is fair to recommend people not take MDMA because of the possible damage. That line may be well below the active dose. However, the idea that everyone who takes any amount of MDMA is causing lasting damage is not yet supported by the research. Either position is speculation at this time.

    I believe you are familiar with a lot of the studies I mentioned so I did not post links. If you need them I can look them up but I don’t have them handy. Please let me know your thoughts. I enjoy discussing drugs and drug policy with thoughtful people who have done their research. Also I apologize to papoose if it sounded like I was belittling his experience. This thread was about Serotonin Syndrome which is why I posted what I did here.
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    #13
    Bump
    I wanted to bump this thread because I have been experiencing what I can only describe as possible SS after-effects that are completely ruining my life. While it's not from MDMA use, some of my symptoms were similar to those described here and I am hoping maybe to get some insight. I posted in a different forum about this a few weeks back and told them I was going to see a neurologist about it (the 5th one) and he was stumped. I mentioned I would update on my symptoms/prognosis, and this thread seemed like the perfect place to do it. I have now seen 5 neurologists and 1 psychiatrist and none of them has been able to help me at all. It seems like this is the right thread to discuss this issue which continues to ruin my life and cause debilitating symptoms.

    I took a mixture of herbal supplements including 100 mg 5-HTP and 100 mg Butterbur for 2-3 years with no adverse effects, but this summer I took 3 unisom (doxylamine succinate) on 3 different occasions while on these supplements and I developed muscle twitching in my arms, legs, and calves, had a lot of anxiety, muscle jerking at night in my knees and calves, heavy sweating when asleep, terrible insomnia when not on the medication, woke up literally jumping off my bed, and woke up to tightness in my chest/shortness of breath which was present while laying down as well as for 15-20 seconds after standing up. I couldn't sleep for 7 straight days after the 3rd dose of unisom and the muscle twitching was quite annoying and frequent.

    A few weeks later, while still on these supplements, I took one 5 mg Zolpidem pill and experienced a very rapid heartbeat, popping noises in my head, hallucinations, restless legs, and no sleep. I also had diarrhea in the morning. Then, for days afterwards, my muscle twitching spread all over my face, chest, and shoulders. I stopped taking the supplements shortly afterwards. Two days after taking the Ambien, I experienced nightly jerking movements in my calves, knees, neck, shoulders, arms, fingers, and toes along with shock like sensations in my face as well as involuntary facial grimaces, which kept me from sleeping. I experience my neck jerking involuntarily from the left to the right multiple times per night. My sleep also became very light and broken up - deep sleep was disappearing. I developed a strange sensation of something moving behind my Adam's apple in my throat which still persists to this day. I also started to develop more and more frequent bowel and urinary movements.

    I thought maybe I was having withdrawals or something from the supplements, so I took them again for 3 days and also took an L-Theanine capsule (100 mg). I had taken L-Theanine before the Ambien incident with no problems. This time, after I took it, I experienced a dramatic increase in the intensity, frequency, and location of my muscle twitching to include my chest, abdomen, buttocks, and back. All of my previous sleep jerking returned at once and I experienced some new ones as well, including my neck jerking back and forth and All the previous Instead of relaxing me, the L-Theanine made me hyper, irritable, anxious, and I experienced akasthesia (restlessness). As if my sleep wasn't broken up enough already, it continued to worsen and I experienced only light, intense REM sleep episodes which were shortening and shortening as the days rolled by.

    At this point, I cut myself off from all herbal supplements and hoped that things would get better. They did not. I experienced the strangest allergies to things I was never allergic to before, each time precipitating an increase in the frequency, intensity, and location of my muscle twitching and nightly limb jerking. This included things like bright fluorescent lighting in Target (triggered me twice), parmesan cheese on pizza, soy products or anything containing soybean oil, sitting in a stuffy hair salon (this triggered a major increase in symptoms), eating a large marshmallow (it contained different types of sugar), anything containing preservatives, anything fermented, and anything with too strong a scent.

    Most recently, my wife bought me some lavender oil to put on my pillow to help me relax and it instead increased my symptoms even more and caused my back-and-forth neck jerk and abdominal jerk to become another one of my regular nightly jerking motions, even happening in my sleep as well as before sleep. My sleep is incredibly light, frequently interrupted, and filled with non-stop muscle twitching and frequent limb jerking and shock-like sensations. My neck jerks so frequently now that I actually had to purchase a soft cervical collar to allow me to sleep without injuring my neck. My twitching is extremely widespread and is now pretty much everywhere including my lips, all over my scalp, all over my neck and back of neck, all over chest, abdomen, and happening several times per second at the worst and every 1-2 seconds at the best, all day and all night. It never ends.

    Additionally, my bowel movements are completely out of whack (sometimes having to go 8-10 times in a day) and I can't hold down liquids either. All of my bloodwork came back normal, so I don't have any vitamin deficencies or diabetes or liver/kidney damage, etc.

    So, from those of you experienced dealing with or having had SS, does it sound like I had several instances of serotonin syndrome and permanently fucked up my serotonin neurons and possibly some GABA ones as well? Has anyone heard of symptoms like the ones I am having? It makes daily life unbearable and I am always depressed day in and day out. Before all of this, I weighed about 20 lbs more, went running 3-6 miles every day, and was a very happy family man with a good career. Now I am barely holding onto my career, my family has trouble being around me, and I feel like I am dying every day.

    Could damage have been done from the accidental 5-HTP/Unisom and 5-HTP/Zolpidem combination that might mimic the damage done by an MDMA/SSRI combination, SJW/SSRI, or Effexor/Lexapro combination? I mean, I never got a high fever. I am not sure if I had seizures (I did wake up startled, jumping out of my bed three times while the Unisom was in me), but I never once thought to go the hospital (even with the tightness in chest/shortness of breath because it went away).

    My muscles just twitch, twitch, twitch every freaking second of the day from head to toe and everywhere in between and then when I lay down at night it takes me forever to fall asleep with the jerking/shock-like sensations and the twitching and when I do finally fall asleep, it's short, light, and dreamy.

    Any insight here would be appreciated. So far 5 neurologist and 1 psychiatrist have been of no help. I am running out of ideas and I have always found the most insightful and thoughtful and honest info coming from bluelighters. Thank you!
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    #14
    Bluelighter
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    Seventh, wow I am truly sorry. That is crazy I have never head of such a reaction. The only solace I can offer is that MDMA related neurotoxicity can usually correct itself, although it takes a long long time. I hope whatever was triggered on your end shares the same prognosis.
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    #15
    Bluelighter Thou's Avatar
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    I recently overdosed on something like 40 20mg lexapro tablets.

    Would have sucked hardcore but I took 19mg kpin before I went to the hospital.

    Benzo's really are lifesavers when it comes to that nasty shit. First time I had it was with dxm and an ssri I forgot I'd taken. Dumb. That one was way worse than the last one, but again, 19mg klonopin will save you from just about anything.

    Just a disclaimer I have a huge benzo tolerance and that amount didn't even get me high. That's a HUGE dose for an intolerant user. If you should ever get serotonin syndrome go the nearest ER and have a doctor give you benzos.
    Last edited by Thou; 01-11-2012 at 00:35.
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    #16
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/ma...nted=all&_r=2&

    When the patient finally woke up a week later, it was clear her brain was injured. Her speech was jumbled and slow. Her vision was impaired. She had to learn to read and write again.
    not really serotonin syndrome, but damn

    Last edited by cope; 01-11-2012 at 01:50.
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    #17
    wow, hope everyone is doing alright now!
    I know not to abuse it.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawglaw View Post
    Seventh, wow I am truly sorry. That is crazy I have never head of such a reaction. The only solace I can offer is that MDMA related neurotoxicity can usually correct itself, although it takes a long long time. I hope whatever was triggered on your end shares the same prognosis.
    Thanks Dawglaw. I'm just wondering if anyone here can look at my symptoms and possibly tell what might be going on. I'm just guessing it was Serotonin Syndrome given my symptoms, but I'm really not completely sure, to tell you the truth. It had been 20 years since I last took any prescription or non-prescription medication although I had been taking supplements for a few years prior to all of this. I know you guys aren't doctors, but you sure as hell seem to know a lot more than the ones I've been seeing.
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