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Kratom Addiction/ Need Help After Withdrawals Are Over

Hey guys. Another kratom-fighter here. I'm currently on day 5 of cutting it 'cold turkey' and it's pretty awful but I think I'm starting to turn a corner with some of the withdrawal symptoms (the physical ones, at least). It's a bit encouraging, but I know I'm only at the start of a long battle to true sobriety.

Firstly, I'd just like to say that this is a great thread with some great words and advice. Kudos to those of you who are on the right path and fighting that fight. Especially pods; your positivity is great.

My (familiar) story: ordered an ounce of kratom last September after hearing all the nice things about it, and I've always been one to experiment with substances. I've enjoyed the occasional roxy/oxy, but never had a habit with them, mostly because they are way too expensive, but also because I knew and heard of tons of people in my town who had serious problems with the stuff. That and I just never really had a problem with addiction. I smoked weed on and off but never found it to be difficult to quit. Never been a big drinker. This is where the kratom is sneaky and charming, though. It's legal, relatively cheap (compared to pharm opiates), 'natural,' and generally has a pretty decent reputation. And I of course could never get addicted to anything; I was beyond that, I thought. So my guard was down.

The other element that led to my abuse of the stuff is that I suffer from depression and anxiety, which seems to be a common thread between all of us who have found ourselves in a bad relationship with this plant. Alcohol never made me feel better like it does for some people; after a few months of regular weed-smoking I would just get really bored with it and stop without any serious issues, and it didn't help me otherwise.

Kratom though, seemed to give me strength. It just made me feel good, with extra motivation and desire for socialization. It kind of seemed to cure me of my depression/anxiety. From early on though, I wasn't really so naive as to think this plant was the answer. To be honest, I was pretty self-aware that I was abusing the plant from pretty early on (after I got a feel for it). I hoped/expected it would give me the strength to improve my life in various ways. Ultimately it might have improved my performance at work, but other than that it didn't really affect my life in a positive way, aside from just making me feel nice. Artificial internal well-being. Completely selfish, and lazy, in a way. Instead of working hard to build a quality, healthy life, I skipped the hard stuff and just ate some plant powder to give me some instant satisfaction. You all know the drill, there.

Anyway, after a month or two I was having a 10g or so dose every night after work, pretty much without missing a dose. Only when I was late on ordering more did I miss one, and after making that mistake a couple times I learned to be well-stocked so as to not have to go through that rough 24-48 hours. Maybe 5 months in I went to doing 2 smaller (maybe 5-7g) doses per day, one to start my day and one to end it. At some point around then I got into the habit of taking a moderate dose before work, which became pretty necessary as working with the short-term withdrawals or comedown effects was pretty unpleasant, and working while on a fresh dose was much more pleasant and effective.

It was like 3 months ago that I decided to start cutting down. I began to only take enough to make me feel normal/functional, instead of an amount that would be more like a high. Of course, I started to experience more and more unpleasant hours in my day, and I got to a point where I felt like I needed 3 small doses per day instead of two. One to start my day (which is usually my work dose), one after work (so I could actually enjoy the rest of my day/night and be somewhat productive), and one slightly smaller one later in the night to get me a decent night's rest. It was around this time that I started to really hate this substance; or moreso, hate that I felt enslaved to it. Hated being miserable and useless without it. Hated knowing that I wouldn't be able to be a good friend, a good son, etc. without eating this horrible-tasting plant three times a day. Once again, if you are reading this you know the feeling. I basically got to a point where I decided, fuck this. No more. If I'm eating this awful-tasting stuff three times a day just to feel normal, then what's the point? Why spend the money to eat this nasty powdered plant that makes me feel 'decent' for an hour or two.

It's crazy how you get sucked into it. I pretty much knew it was bad news for me from very early on, but didn't do anything about it until the negatives overwhelmed and upset me. I used it to fill a void, and it ended up creating a bigger void. Now I have stopped using it and all there is is one very large void.

I have cheated a bit, though, since quitting. I got some percocet from a friend and have used 7.5mg doses of it before work to allow me to function. I know this will only slow the process, but I can't afford to take time off work, and being at work is a hell of a lot better than laying in bed at home, tossing and turning with complete physical and mental discomfort. I find that being active helps. I suppose it distracts from the negative aspects. It's sort of like going to work sick; you kind of forget that you're sick because you are so busy. I also happen to be a month into opening a new restaurant. I'm a server, and there's no way I could handle running around, taking care of 6 different tables, timing out a dozen different meals, composing myself and being pleasant to customers and co-workers, etc. if I were going through the pure withdrawals.

So my plan, sort of, is to use the percocet for work and when I have other engagements that require a certain level of focus/composure etc. for the first five days. No kratom, but 15mg of percocet a day instead. Today will be the last of the percocet, and I definitely won't be getting anymore because that shit is expensive and obviously I don't want to develop another bad habit. Even with the small percocet doses, that only buys me about 2 hours of feeling pretty good, another 2 hours of feeling 'ok', and then the withdrawal symptoms quickly creep back in and it's back to the bottom.

I also happened to buy some etizolam a couple weeks ago, and so I've been taking those to help me sleep (though they are so short-acting that I sometimes have to get up and take more to get back to sleep). Also been taking smaller doses here and there during the day to ease my mind a bit, though it's far from a complete cure of the psychological symptoms. I also find that weed can either help or make things worse. I'm careful about when I have a smoke, because sometimes it'll just make me really sleepy in a bad kind of way, so I have to lie down, and up with a couple hours of really bad sleep that I wake up feeling horrible from.

I feel like there's more I should elaborate on as far as my recent recovery regiment, but I need a break from blabbing my boring story. Just wanted to join the club, I guess. Don't really have anyone IRL I can go to; I was glad to find this thread.
 
haha I can't believe how large that wall of text is. I would condense it but I don't really have the time, so... sorry, haha.

I actually have some questions and such, more about fighting the withdrawals, I'd like to bring up but I'll have to do that later.
 
Kosmos7 said:
haha I can't believe how large that wall of text is. I would condense it but I don't really have the time, so... sorry, haha.

I actually have some questions and such, more about fighting the withdrawals, I'd like to bring up but I'll have to do that later.
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Welcome K7! Your post wasn't boring man. It was a good read, honest, and yes, familiar. It's good for everyone here to know they're not alone. As was mentioned here a time or two, I think most people do OK with not getting sucked into Kratom, but man, some of us sure the hell do.

I'm kinda confused why percocets? That kind of stuff, IME, has tougher withdrawals that come on faster, hit harder when they do, and then last longer. It sounds like you're bouncing around with your dosing plans, or should I say lack of plan? So, are you going with no more kratom, quitting the percocet, and using the etizolam for sleep? I'd never heard of etizolam, but read about it just now. It's pretty short acting. Do you have access to a doctor? Maybe you should try ambien or temazepam? Both are hypnotic benzos that last for a good night's sleep, preventing that need to take more in the middle of the night.

As far as fighting WDs and getting through the psychological phase after, much has been said in this thread regarding that. Read through a bit more if you get a chance and feel free to ask me any questions. Also feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything real personal. Better to keep most of it here though as it helps others.

So, it sounds like your habit is less than a year old. That's a good thing, a young habit. The longer the habit the tougher the road. Your road will be tough anyway. They all are. My suggestion would be to do some more evaluation and personal reflection. See where your habit is now. If you can, try not to jump around between substances. If kratom was your DOC then perhaps you should taper down from that? I don't know you though, and damn sure don't know it all. You might do well to use the percs to get through. I'm not sure how you'll be able to taper those though.

The other option besides tapering is CT. Seems that's not an option for you, and I don't recommend it personally. For some though, it is the only way. I had a hard time controlling myself during my pod taper, and now that I'm stabilized on kratom, I'm having a hard time not getting recreational with it... Just trying to use it to taper down to no more opiates or opiate like substances.

So, post your questions about fighting WDs and we'll see how we can help, RIGHT GUYS? 8(
Besides fighting WDs, you can do things to lessen them.
And this should be done with an eye on making the post-physical, that is, the psychological phase afterward less difficult.
It gets talked about like it's 2 different things, the physical WDs and then the PAWS (the psychological phase).
But really one bleeds into the next, though they are different.
I'm rambling!
My point is that one should start doing things during and towards the end of the physical withdrawal that will transition into the part after, making all of it much easier.

Let us know how you are doing, and ask away. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

All best,
Podsnomo
 
Here's another story I'm pasting from another site. Name omitted.

Again, for those thinking Kratom is a joke... read this:

"Long story short, I've been on and off various opiates/opiods since about 2003. I got RX'd Tramadol for some chronic back pain I was having - and still have a bit of, but it's completely manageable with exercise - and got hooked. Managed to get off that and didn't use anything for about 3-4 years. Then I messed up my ribs and got a script for Percocet, and I was off and running. I was in school at the time, plus working almost full time, and I guess I was trying to medicate the insane amount of stress I was under. My days began at 6-8 AM and ended at 1-3 AM, lather, rinse, repeat. I gave up EVERYTHING for my education, because I knew it was the only thing going to better me in life, and I didn't want to end up where my family had ended up, because none of them ever went to school. But I lost 25 pounds because I never had time to eat, most of the week I was either a mess of rage or near tears because I never had even ONE free minute for myself, there was always more things to do than hours in the day but yet everything HAD to get done, and the percs gave me energy and mellowed me out.

Looking back it was a dumb thing to do, but you all know how it is. Nobody ever wakes up one morning and goes "Hey, I have a great idea! Let's become and addict! That'll solve ALL our problems!"

From that time to this, I'd kicked and relapsed a few times. I never had a huge habit by most people's standards, and I knew I could deal with the 3 days of WDs if I had a long weekend. So, whenever my tolerance started getting too high, or I didn't have the money, it wasn't the hardest thing on earth to kick.

Then I got the job I have now, which pays pretty well, and I met a buddy there who had a buddy who had a script, plus he knew a few other people, so a virtually endless supply of pills came my way. I also discovered poppy seed tea, which, if you have a steady supply of "dirty" seeds, which I did, is a a very REAL opiate.

My habit got pretty heavy. It never, ever, interfered with my being at work or how I did my job, I have too much a sense of responsibility for that I guess. But I got to a point where I was sick of pissing that much money away for basically nothing.

Somehow, I don't remember how, I discovered kratom. Cheap, 100% legal in the US (where I am), and it worked to keep the WDs away. It also helped with my back pain, when it flares up.

You can guess where this is going. Now I'm hooked on the fucking kratom. And for the life of me, I *cannot* kick this shit. I can handle WDs. But it's like they never stop coming off kratom. By the end of 3 days, I'm just as sick as I was on Day 1, by the end of 5 days, I'm just as sick as on Day 3, by the end of 10 days, I'm almost but not quite as sick as I was on Day 5.

I don't know what the fuck to do. I've tapered - I actually have pretty good willpower and the ability to moderate when I really want to kick, but it doesn't seem to help at all. I was down to 1/2 teaspoon at 12 hour intervals at one point, then jumped from there, and I was STILL just as fucking sick as if I'd jumped from my "usual" dose. I don't HAVE 10+ days to be sick. I'm a manager where I work, and I need to function. If it was 3 to even 5 days, I could suck it up. But feeling weak, dizzy, sweaty, cold, nauseous, heartburn, the shits, not sleeping, body aches, and all the other fun stuff you get takes such a toll on my by that time, I can't take it anymore and go back to using.

My buddy kicked, so I don't want to ask him to hook me up anymore. That's not cool. I know he makes his own choices just like I do, but I'm not sure I could have OPs, OCs, or percs on hand for someone else and not indulge. I'm not going to put him in that spot. I can get tramadol online just like anyone else can, so I was thinking maybe going onto that and then tapering off tramadol might help. Only thing is, tramadol seemed to be more addictive faster than any other pharm I've had. I know kratom alkaloids are related to yohimbine, would taking that maybe mitigate the WD from kratom? I need to get off this shit, I don't like not having any control over it what so ever, to the point where I can't kick even if I'm determined to do so.

Getting into a treatment program isn't an option for me, because I don't think any suboxone docs or 'done clinics around here even know about kratom, and I do have legit pain that needs medical help now and then. If I go into treatment, I'll never get any kind of effective pain relief ever again.

I'd really appreciate any help or suggestions anyone can offer, and please don't tell me to man up, that it's "just" kratom. I know my way around opiates, and this isn't "just" anything. This is serious, real shit I'm going through."

that's all he said.
peace,
pnm
 
The percocet was a short-term thing. I actually used the last of em tonight for work. My idea was that I'd stop the kratom, take a light perc dose every now and then, as needed, to function, and hopefully get through some of the worst/early part of the kratom withdrawal in the mean time.

So I'm off work until saturday morning, when I've got a double that'll last 10 hours or so. And another one sunday. Depending on how I feel, I might have to go back to the kratom to get through those days. Like, a small dose to get me moving. Obviously, I'd rather not have to do that, but at least I will have gone about a week without it.

I'm just not really sure if I can get completely off it without taking at least a week off work to try and sort myself out. I'm really hoping that I'll feel decent enough this weekend to not feel the need to turn back to it, but realistically it doesn't seem likely. Either way, it will be difficult; the question is exactly how difficult. I've worked a double without any kratom the whole day and it sucked but I got through it. But it's kind of easier to do it when it's just one day and you know you'll have some tomorrow, or there's some waiting for you at home that got delivered while you were at work. Knowing that there's a 'light' at the end of the tunnel helps.

But now I've got two of these shifts in a row where I need to wake up much earlier than I'm used to, and it's just fuckin daunting. And if I get through it, I'll be 'treated' to a day off monday where I'll probably do nothing but feel like shit all day.

Another common kratom addiction story I've seen is where the person tries to kick it, finds that it just fucks their life up too bad for too long without the stuff, then they end up back on it and say "Well, I guess this is just how it will be for a while." In a way, it makes a lot of sense. Choosing between going through hell for an unknown duration of time, likely weeks if not months, or eating a gross plant a couple times a day to stay regular. It's really a dilemna, because both options have major drawbacks. Do you go through months of feeling awful to hopefully find peace at some point, or keep riding that wave. On the kratom, you can at least control when you will feel good or not.

I think there can be great difficulty depending on your life circumstances. A lot of people start using kratom because they are depressed, feel worthless, unconfident, anxiety issues, etc. They find the cure. So after you have learned to depend on that cure, taking it away just leaves a very large hole. They likely had poor coping mechanisms to begin with, and found life to be harsh and difficult before the kratom. So AFTER the kratom, you're back to where you were, except you've got a whole new set of problems to deal with, and your ability to cope with the difficulties of life are even weaker than they were before. Hopefully though, you learned some things and it won't be so much like reverting; but it seems like that's more or less how it is for a lot of people.

Shit is complex. Life is rarely ever easy, and I think that's one of the lessons that a drug addiction can teach you. That you can't rely on a substance to articficially make you feel good; or at least, a lot of us can't. At the same time, it is merely adjusting some chemicals in your brain that might be the difference in giving you the energy/strength to do what you want/need to do in life. If you think about all the babies born from a night of alcohol, or all the people who rely on caffeine, it suggests that there's nothing inherently wrong with consuming a chemistry-adjusting substance every day. So of course, that means it's all just different from individual to individual.

I'm not sure who would like having to eat a foul-tasting plant multiple times a day, especially knowing what will happen to you when you STOP taking it. It's very conflicting, because that seems to strongly tell you both to stop using it as soon as possible, and to also never stop using it. Very confusing. It's cruel, really.
 
I guess that's the thing that makes kratom so uniquely difficult to stop using versus stuff like heroin or whatever. People more often use kratom to function throughout their day; they don't use it to get fucked up. So it's incredibly difficult to quit in its own way. Not to say that quitting heroin is easier than quitting kratom, obviously. Just different.

That said, I'm seriously considering just throwing the in towel for now, and waiting for a better time to get off this stuff. Dealing with the opening of a new restaurant has been really stressful and I can't afford to take time off. I'll save up and take a week or two off when it reaches the slowest point (which will be in a month or so), and meanwhile I'll actually do a proper taper instead of just eyeballing it in a spoon, sometimes taking more than necessary out of carelessness, which surely has not helped. And I'll get some loperamide (never got around to getting any this time), sedatives/weed for the sleep, and try to get some proper exercise in as well. Right now I have a hard enough time exercising with the kratom, let alone without it, because of how busy I am.

But the idea of 'wasting' these 5 days and giving back in isn't sitting well either. I feel the need to suffer through this, like I've deserved it, like it's all coming back to me. If only I had a job that was less social-intensive, focus-requiring, etc. this might be more feasible. But going into work with a really poor mental/physical state could lead to bigger problems like serious issues with co-workers or customers. I get in stressful situations all the time where I feel on the verge to lose it and do something that would get me in trouble, but I keep it in check. As of now I'm in good standing all around, well-liked and respected, but it's taken a lot out of me just to get to and maintain that point. Feels like it takes everything.

Tell me if I'm just using dangerous rationalizations, but I feel like I might have rushed into this out of impulsive frustration and a better time and a better plan might be the right way to go. Obviously it all depends on how I feel. I haven't worked a shift without either the kratom or, more recently, the perc, in a while. If it's just one day without it's pretty bad but manageable, just because one day of feeling crappy is nothing compared to weeks or months of feeling even crappier.
 
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I feel you Kosmos. I've got be on my toes too for my job. And right now I'm sitting here with the chills, waiting for the loperamide to knock them down a bit so I can take my morning 3g of kratom.

Yes, you are rationalizing, but I think you might also be right. However, I wouldn't call it dangerous rationalizing, because luckily we're talking about kratom. If it were H I'd be telling you to shut up and get into detox. With H it's life and death. With kratom it's lifemanageable and lifeholyfuckingshitthissucks(temporarily).

So, it's good you know you're rationalizing, but you still have your head screwed on straight about getting off the stuff somehow. I think this trial run at quitting taught you a lot. It was similar for me with poppy pods. I had to wait for the right time. My gf went out of town for a long weekend and I attempted a cold turkey quit. Big mistake. I made it until she got back, but then on day 5, it was still getting worse, so I caved, made some tea out of the stems I had, and ordered more pods. I then waited for my next opportunity. She was heading out of town again for a conference a couple months later. So I got enough to start a taper and worked my way down from very high doses to tiny ones, and then jumped from there and switched to kratom, the lesser of two evils... or maybe just the different of two evils. For me, it's a lesser evil anyway.

I think you've got it right. You need to be prepared and you need to have some wiggle room job-wise and life-wise. For now, try to use at a base line. Measure your doses. Keep track of them. Try not to use for a high if you can, just to get by. This will make your upcoming taper easier. Buy a "jewelry scale". (Who the fuck weighs jewelry on $20 scale?) Anyway, they work. And don't try to put the powder on the scale. Most have a "tare" function that will zero out the weight of a container. Use an empty pill bottle. Put it on, hit tare, add your kratom dose, and see how much you're taking. Then try to keep that consistent. The scale will come in handy in your taper as you can drop as little as a tenth of gram each time you drop, though you might consider lots of different dose-dropping plans. We can discuss that more later. Just order a scale for now.

Then, when you are ready to do a proper taper, get your loperamide on hand, some good supplements, healthy food. Get some high-calorie ensure or something for days when the last thing you wanna do is eat. You can knock those back and you get calories and lots of vitamins. Nutrition without having to eat basically. These and other steps will give you a physical advantage for the quit. They will also give you a psychological advantage of having an arsenal of stuff to combat symptoms while at the same time helping your body and brain heal and start to return to normal, pre-addiction levels. This is a long road, as I am learning and many have told me about. But each day gets better, and the biggest thing you'll have spurring you on, in addition to our support here, is your FREEDOM from needing to take something every single friggin day!

You can and will get there Kosmos. You still sound determined to quit, eventually. That's a good thing. Be kind to yourself. Don't think of this as a set-back or find reasons here to tell yourself you can't quit. You can. Think of this as some lessons learned, bide your time, stay functional, and start mentally preparing for the awesome thing you're about to do. When the time comes to go through the taper and quit, which is hard but not as hard as CT, get a piece of paper and write on it in large letters: "You are a wonderful person and you're doing something incredible for yourself. You are worth it. Keep calm, keep on, keep faith." Something like that. And put it somewhere where you will see it often.

You got this, and I got your back. Take it easy Kosmos. And again, be kind to yourself about all this.

peace,
pnm
 
slayerhatesusall said:
Even if you don't take kratom every day you can still get slight w/ds from it after awhile, took about 4 weeks of me using it every 3 days to get some slightly annoying w/ds that last around 5 days. Nothing serious though but still annoying.
And how are you guys spending $80+ a week on kratom? You must be using extracts, when I was using it on a daily basis it never cost me more then $40 a month even when I was using a little less then half a pound of it per month once I had built a good tolerance up to it. I never used extracts except for free samples I got due to the insane price compared to the ground up leaf, they seem like a huge ripoff pricewise.
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Well you must have had a cheaper vender than I. The vender I went through charge about 30-35 per QP but it was the best quality out of all the vendors I tried. I would go through about a HP per week and I paid for express shipping an extra 15 bucks. Ended up being around 86 while I was at this level. After a while I could make the HP last two weeks but yeah.
 
Kosmos7 said:
I guess that's the thing that makes kratom so uniquely difficult to stop using versus stuff like heroin or whatever. People more often use kratom to function throughout their day; they don't use it to get fucked up. So it's incredibly difficult to quit in its own way. Not to say that quitting heroin is easier than quitting kratom, obviously. Just different.

That said, I'm seriously considering just throwing the in towel for now, and waiting for a better time to get off this stuff. Dealing with the opening of a new restaurant has been really stressful and I can't afford to take time off. I'll save up and take a week or two off when it reaches the slowest point (which will be in a month or so), and meanwhile I'll actually do a proper taper instead of just eyeballing it in a spoon, sometimes taking more than necessary out of carelessness, which surely has not helped. And I'll get some loperamide (never got around to getting any this time), sedatives/weed for the sleep, and try to get some proper exercise in as well. Right now I have a hard enough time exercising with the kratom, let alone without it, because of how busy I am.

But the idea of 'wasting' these 5 days and giving back in isn't sitting well either. I feel the need to suffer through this, like I've deserved it, like it's all coming back to me. If only I had a job that was less social-intensive, focus-requiring, etc. this might be more feasible. But going into work with a really poor mental/physical state could lead to bigger problems like serious issues with co-workers or customers. I get in stressful situations all the time where I feel on the verge to lose it and do something that would get me in trouble, but I keep it in check. As of now I'm in good standing all around, well-liked and respected, but it's taken a lot out of me just to get to and maintain that point. Feels like it takes everything.

Tell me if I'm just using dangerous rationalizations, but I feel like I might have rushed into this out of impulsive frustration and a better time and a better plan might be the right way to go. Obviously it all depends on how I feel. I haven't worked a shift without either the kratom or, more recently, the perc, in a while. If it's just one day without it's pretty bad but manageable, just because one day of feeling crappy is nothing compared to weeks or months of feeling even crappier.
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I think you bring up a very rational point here and I don't think your just using dangerous rationalizations. I know for me personally the w/d took at least two-full weeks. During this time, if I was at work, I wouldn't have done too hot and I'm sure that I might have lost my job anyways. I think the reason that I was able to get through it is because I could fall back on my family for help. Which is kinda the fucked up thing, addicts always fall back on their family when they try to quit. Shouldn't be their responsibility but I am very grateful my family was their for me. I was about to relapse on day 5 but thankfully my dad intercepted the order and said he'd hold onto it until I could make the right decision. I'm very glad he did this for me, giving me 1 more day, I decided to sell what I had. That was really the hump for me, day 5. Day 6 my physical w/d stopped so I moved on to taking ambien at night to help with anxiety. Anyways... lol my point is that I needed help to get through the hard part. If you have the option, I would even consider rehab treatment if it's covered my your health insurance. The only reason I got through day 5 was because my family intervened on me. Yeah I was pissed off at the time, but I'm thankful they were there.

Your right, having some free time is very important, but most people give themselves too little. If you can take the time off of work than I would recommend at least taking two weeks off. If your in rehab, most likely your company should not be able to fire you because addiction is technically a disability- I think lol
I would check it out but I think everyone should consider rehab as an option, even for something as "silly" at Kratom.
 
^Good advice Beat It, but Kosmos works as a server...waits tables. I did this for years. Unless Kosmos is serving at some 5 star, I doubt time off for rehab is an option.

For the health of the nation, a 2-4 week rehab should be covered for anybody who wants it. But that's just not the way it is... Sorry, don't want to turn this thread into a policy/morality debate.

It's just that I'm pretty sure it's not an option for him/her. Kosmos, you male or female? Like it matters. ;)

So, like me, K probably needs to get this done at home. If only we all had the luxury of taking a break from our lives to overcome our addictions!
 
Yeah no worries! :) I don't have health insurance, but a lot of health insurance agencies covers rehab, at least to my knowledge. My main point is I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own.
 
^Not that I'm totally recovered either. Still got that monkey on my back. Just past the hard part.
 
Beat It said:
Yeah no worries! :) I don't have health insurance, but a lot of health insurance agencies covers rehab, at least to my knowledge. My main point is I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own.
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Beat It said:
Yeah no worries! :) I don't have health insurance, but a lot of health insurance agencies covers rehab, at least to my knowledge. My main point is I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own.
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Yeah, rehab is great, if you can afford the time and $$. You said you couldn't have done it on your own. Bingo. For addicts: alone it is too much for us. Some get support here, some in 12 step groups, some from family and friends. For sure, having support peeps in place is one of the keys. Preferably multiple modes of support. But if all somebody has is BL, then thank jeebus for that, at least.

I'm so glad to hear that you're past the hardest part Beat It. As the OP, it's wonderful that you got closer to where you wanted to be when you started this thread. That monkey might hang around for a while. You might feel no cravings, no anxiety and all that for a while, and then get whammied with cravings or some mood problems or whatever down the road. No problem. You can handle that. The good news is that on average it will only get better for you from here...so long as you stay clean.

I'll be catching up with you soon. My pod habit was BAD, so my kratom use now got into a bit of more flux than I would have liked. I actually took 3g four times today. Loooong day, but I don't wanna be upping my doses. My damn mail-order kratom didn't come in on time, so I had to get some more mini-mart shit. When my mail order gets here I'm going to weigh it out, plan it out, and make a taper plan just like I did with the pods. I've been through some tough shit on those damn pods, so I'm pretty confident I can handle the road to being kratomnomo too.

What I did with the pods was plan out all my doses, when my drops would be, how much, and so on. A couple times I had to adjust the plan and stay on a lower dose longer before the next drop, esp after I got ahead of myself once and did too big of a drop. But looking back, that larger drop worked out well. I just gotta keep the path and soon will be free.

Hang in there, take it easy, and let us know how it continues to go for you now that you're FREE. (free at least from taking shit everyday, even if that monkey is loath to go, it will).

All my best, major props, mad respect,
and as always,
peace,
pnm
 
podsnomo, your a sharp guy and give great advice. I second everything you say and especially about the supplements, Im tapering (or trying) and Ive noticed a huge difference in my energy level. Can anyone give me some advice or tips on how to start my taper? and maybe a game plan? the problem is i have a good stash and am tapering to lower the cost and bring back some of the earlier effects. im around 15-18g a day, use it for work and sleep. I am prescribed 10mg valium daily for anxiety and can probably get a script of ambien. I have been taking less but its really hard when your really bored and sitting at home. I do a lot skateboarding, atleast 2 hours a day, but the RLS makes it really hard to get motivated and warmed-up. Any advice would be appreciated, I have read the whole thread and its a great discussion.
I am considering asking someone to hold onto it for me but i think i can do this on my own, or atleast im going to try.
 
Like you said, pods, this was a learning experience. What I learned was that I was blaming the kratom for personal problems in my life that I actually have total control over.

I believe what drove me to say 'it stops here' in regards to the kratom usage, was that I kinda blew off my mom's birthday a couple weeks ago. Granted, I worked all day and didn't get to see her, but I didn't even end up getting her a card or anything. When I was finally able to see her I got her something and there wasn't really a real external issue but it upset me internally, for sure, that I didn't get to do anything more than tell her happy birthday. It was especially bothersome because she's going through some hard times herself (whole other story) and I know it would have made her feel good if I went out of my way for her in some way.

I was intending to do something for her like take her out for lunch or something but the pendulum swing of the kratom effects didn't coincide with the free time I could have made for her. I blamed myself, like I often do, but I ultimately told myself that my use of the kratom was the real cause of it all. In a way it's true. But at the same time I could have planned out my time better, or simply have manned up and did something outgoing without an immediate boost from the kratom. It was still completely in my control, in the end.

And this ties into the bigger picture of my life where I just haven't been taking care of myself very well. Not eating enough (I'm way too skinny, 5'10 122 lbs, and I feel like most people think I do heroin or something), not exercising, almost entirely cutting off my social life (though i get lots of socialization in at work and consider many of my co-workers to be friends). Just generally treating myself poorly. The kratom, once again, could be said to have played a part in this, as it has the power to make you feel good in spite of not eating well, getting exercise, having a social life, etc. I can treat myself really bad but still feel pretty good for a decent portion of the day (though it's not uncommon at all for me to feel depressed even while on the top end of a kratom dose).

I've learned, I think, that the kratom played a part in some problems I've been having, but ultimately it isn't the cause of it all. And to put so much blame on it is to rid of myself of self-responsibility, and THAT is dangerous.

What I want to do is find a decent routine to keep me in a decent state with the kratom, and use the stuff to be more productive. Honestly, as motivating as it can be, I often times just use the peace of mind it brings me to enjoy something leisurely and unproductive (various internet wastes of time, etc.). I didn't care. A lot of this poor self-treatment was a result of fairly recent girl problems that kind of set me on a bad path. Part of me kinda just gave up on life. I enjoyed my job more than anything, so I just worked all the time and used the rest of my day to drift off into leisure. Ironically, it didn't really bring me any peace. Excessive leisure, for me at least, just makes me feel worse and worse.

I could go on and on about the specifics of my depression (been pretty depressed for about 7 or so years now). I've felt for a while that I'm just not learning; I'm not growing or experiencing. Sometimes, it's really fucked up, but sometimes I wish that something tragic would happen in my life, like losing a loved one or something. Or a crazy near-death experience. Or just something to wake me up and realize that life is happening but I am not. So I think here is a lesson; without the 'crutch' of the kratom I've been shown just how hollowed out my life has become.

This is all really negative-sounding. I'd like to cut that stuff out more in general, starting right now.

I actually made a list earlier tonight of things that really make me happy. Completely honestly, I am usually in such a haze of anxiety and depression that I can't even remember the way happiness feels, or how to obtain it, or what it is, even. It's like a completely foreign thing to me. But there are actually many things that make me happy, I realized, and I generally don't live with those things in mind at all. Just an easy but very true example: physical activity. Every time I go outside and play some basketball at the park, go rock-climbing, or just ride a bike, I really enjoy it and feel pretty good afterward. But I almost never do these things. That's a real common thing though; most people would like to be more physically active but can't find the energy/motivation to do so. But that I actually really enjoy physical activity and have the time to do it, but don't... It's confusing. Why would I not do something that I really enjoy and would be really good for me? This is kind of getting into another area entirely, but basically I feel like at some point in a depression or whatever you stop understanding or caring about the value of taking care of yourself. And this experience has woken me up a bit.

So I need to improve the quality of my life. There's a ton of ways I can do that, and so I'm working at it. One idea I've got is to practice preparing and cooking quality, balanced meals, and cook for my mom. She doesn't eat well either, but I know her tastes, and if I were to make her meals myself I know she would enjoy and appreciate that. And it would give me a hobby and skill to work on. I also have been making music for a long time, which I've been steadily productive with for a while but ultimately not really doing anything with it, and I want to take my craft more seriously and really develop my sound (I make weird, abstract electronic music, mostly). And a couple friends of mine started a new band recently and they want me to be a part of it; they're already playing shows around town and really working at it, but I've been too detached and weighed down by self-loathing to engage myself with what they're doing.

Honestly I just didn't care for a while. I've known all along that if I could just take care of myself better, take life more seriously (my job is the only thing I really take seriously and give most of what I got toward), things would have to improve... But internal issues made getting myself out of the hole seem literally unimaginable.

Another thing I've thought about for a while in my recent state of depression is how I've felt like I am constantly on the verge of a serious breakdown. And that I need it. Like I said earlier, I wanted a wake up call, something, even if it's tragedy. Maybe also, though, things aren't as bad as I've been constantly telling myself for so long now. And maybe this experience will be my breakdown, my tragedy, to ignite the spark of life within me.
 
silentcowboy said:
podsnomo, your a sharp guy and give great advice. I second everything you say and especially about the supplements, Im tapering (or trying) and Ive noticed a huge difference in my energy level. Can anyone give me some advice or tips on how to start my taper? and maybe a game plan? the problem is i have a good stash and am tapering to lower the cost and bring back some of the earlier effects. im around 15-18g a day, use it for work and sleep. I am prescribed 10mg valium daily for anxiety and can probably get a script of ambien. I have been taking less but its really hard when your really bored and sitting at home. I do a lot skateboarding, atleast 2 hours a day, but the RLS makes it really hard to get motivated and warmed-up. Any advice would be appreciated, I have read the whole thread and its a great discussion.
I am considering asking someone to hold onto it for me but i think i can do this on my own, or atleast im going to try.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your kind words silentcb. So, for starting a taper... I'll give you a rough suggestion and you can modify it to suit your needs. You say you're at 15-18g/day. If that dose is good enough for you, that is, keeps you OK, then you should just start the taper there. For opiates, people often drop by a third every three days. So days 1-3, keep your 18g and mentally prepare for the taper. Days 4-6, 12g. Days 7-9 8g. Days 10-12 (now thirds don't work) 6g. Then once you got that low, drop 1g every three days, and as you get lower, drop .5g every three days.

The thing with a taper is that you should set up a plan you think will work, then be prepared to adjust it. If you find your drops in dosages are hitting you too hard, you might drop less, or you might stay on a lowered dose longer until you feel better on that dose before you drop again. You gotta know this is not an easy road, it's just that it's WAY easier, IF you have the willpower to stay with it, than quitting CT.

Many can taper, many cannot. If you find you cannot, and you still want to quit. Wait. I'm sleepy. You'd just like to lower your tolerance?
If that's the case then what I have read but not tried is that doing half your normal dose for one tougher-than-usual week will drop your tolerance. Not sure for how long, or how well this works.

For the RLS, bananas and weightlifting. If you can eat a nanner or 3 a day, maybe even take a potassium supplement too, that will help. For many, lifting weights, and I mean like wearing yourself out (carefully! no injuries!) can leave your legs with no more restlessness in them. There are other threads I think just about RLS. People who've never had an addiction get it sometimes, and varying things work for varying people.

Another way to taper, if you want to quit, is to plan the whole taper. Weigh out all the doses and put them in those tiny drug-dealer bags. Mark them with dates. Have someone (sounds like you have someone who might help) dole out what you've planned for yourself. And then, just take your lumps as they come. Do what you can to deal with the WDs, mild as they might be on a taper. And use the time on that tough road to get ready for living life on life's terms, without the substance.

Gotta respond to Kosmos now and get ready for work. Let me know if I can be of more help.

peace,
pnm
 
Kosmos7 said:
Like you said, pods, this was a learning experience. What I learned was that I was blaming the kratom for personal problems in my life that I actually have total control over.

I believe what drove me to say 'it stops here' in regards to the kratom usage, was that I kinda blew off my mom's birthday a couple weeks ago. Granted, I worked all day and didn't get to see her, but I didn't even end up getting her a card or anything. When I was finally able to see her I got her something and there wasn't really a real external issue but it upset me internally, for sure, that I didn't get to do anything more than tell her happy birthday. It was especially bothersome because she's going through some hard times herself (whole other story) and I know it would have made her feel good if I went out of my way for her in some way.

I was intending to do something for her like take her out for lunch or something but the pendulum swing of the kratom effects didn't coincide with the free time I could have made for her. I blamed myself, like I often do, but I ultimately told myself that my use of the kratom was the real cause of it all. In a way it's true. But at the same time I could have planned out my time better, or simply have manned up and did something outgoing without an immediate boost from the kratom. It was still completely in my control, in the end.

SNIP for space.

Another thing I've thought about for a while in my recent state of depression is how I've felt like I am constantly on the verge of a serious breakdown. And that I need it. Like I said earlier, I wanted a wake up call, something, even if it's tragedy. Maybe also, though, things aren't as bad as I've been constantly telling myself for so long now. And maybe this experience will be my breakdown, my tragedy, to ignite the spark of life within me.
Click to expand...

Wow dude. I stand in respect and applaud your courageous honesty here. Getting honest with yourself is key to a recovery. I'll try to address what I have thoughts on, but you said a lot, so I hope my response will do your post justice. Truly though, this honesty and self-reflection has the ring of someone who can do this. Bravo!

OK, so the big picture first. Coming out of an addiction is HARD. It sucks. But what everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who has gone through it and come out on the other side will tell you is that it is a whole new world out there without the addiction. Once the physical WDs pass, then the psycholgical phases lessens over time, and eventually, like 4-6 months, you're back to pre addiction normality, mostly. You'll always be an addict. But you don't have to always be a user. That 4-6 months sounds awful, I know, but during that time it gets better from day to day, week to week, until one day you'll realize you're sleeping well, doing things, not depressed, and that you haven't thought about using in weeks. That seems like a long time, but you're buying back the rest of your life. Small price to pay, no?

First things first. Before you even think about the kratom taper and eventual quit: START TAKING CARE OF YOU! You said it all. I don't need to give you advice on what to do, you just need to do things you enjoy as much as you can. But don't be too hard on yourself. Start out with something very manageable and set some specific goals. For example, you might try to do at least one thing a day that's active and enjoyable. Plan them out. Start a journal. You might decide to go for a bike ride 3 times a week, even if it's just for 10 or 15 minutes. You ask why you wouldn't do something you enjoy that's good for you. Fucking paradoxical aint it? I know exactly how you feel. Sometimes it's a matter of sheer will. Or, what I'd do is just force myself to start the activity. Just think about the start of the bike ride. Just think about getting on the bike. Then, one foot in front of other foot. Don't think too far ahead. Just get your ass to the bike. Baby steps. Now put your ass ON the bike...etc. You see.

And you gotta nourish yourself. Sounds to me like you're putting pretty much everything ahead of your own well being. I know how that goes. That's how I got a bachelor's, master's and a doctorate! Bad way to do it, but that's how it happened. You gotta not just take care of yourself, but care for yourself. You are important, valuable, worthwhile, loveable and you are loved. You would do well to take steps to get closer to loving yourself half as much as some of those in your life love you. We're talking big-picture shit here man. Years on down the road which will matter more, how well you do your job over the next several months, or how well you care for your own wonderful, valuable life? Perspective.

You said you've been depressed for 7 years? So, it could be the not taking care of yourself, or you may be one of those people who's just depressed. Have you talked with your doctor about an anit-depressant? Welbutrin worked wonders for me. Just a thought. You might just find that your depression subsides when you start loving yourself and putting yourself as a higher priority. You will find out. This honesty you're showing and your commendable self-reflection will serve you well here.

Congrats on making that list. You say you don't even remember happiness or how it feels. I bet contentedness sounds like a foreign language. Here's the rub. It comes back, but you have to buy it with work, with getting through the tough road. The road is there for you. It leads to a whole new world where happiness, contentedness and peace await you. But it is not near, not from this side. When you get there, it seems it didn't last that long, and MORE than worth the struggle. The road is there. Take the first steps. Along the way, be KIND to yourself. Love you. And always remember, you are worth it. And yes, you sure as hell can do this!

The idea about cooking is excellent. Start with that. It's doable. If it feels like to much effort, just break it down. First, just get in the car. Then just get to the store, etc., until you're home with food. Don't think about everything. Just get out the first couple of things and start cooking. These kinds of continued little steps are part of the road back to the you that you want.

Now, as far as the breakdown, tragedy. I hope you don't need that. All you might need, or just really benefit from, is a good hard cry. Go somewhere where you can do this comfortably if you can, or when no one else is home. If you believe in a God, go with that, if you don't try to imagine the collective goodness of humanity. All the people out there doing good. Bring all those people into a big cluster in your mind. Imagine all that goodwill and love, all that selfless service going on everyday, tirelessly. We see all the bad on the news. The good isn't covered. It's there though. Try to bring all that into a pool of loving power in your mind, or in a big, bright cloud above and around you. Now cry out to it. Beg for this to be taken from you. Relinquish yourself. Submit to a power greater than yourself. And, if you can, just fucking cry. Hard. For as long as you can. Especially if, as I suspect, you've not cried for a long time.

This is the part of AA that works for everybody, even if you can't or won't buy into the whole 12 step thing. My higher power, simply, is love. All the good people, doing good, out of love, is the manifestation of my higher power. I don't believe in a god, but I've seen enough good people do amazing things for their fellow humans that I sure as shit believe in love. Big time.

So maybe it's not tragedy that needs to kick you in the balls, but a bolt of inspiration and love from within. If my suggestion works, great. If not, you might find something else to bring that out. It needs to come out. Give voice to your inner pain. When that pain can cry, scream, whatever, it's like letting air out a balloon.

You'll then find in recovery that you'll be needing to deal with emotions that you've been tamping down with the kratom for so long. It'll be OK man. It's painful and rewarding at the same time. And remember, with this tough road you are buying back the rest of your life. We should all feel lucky the price is so low, though we all know that at times it seems impossible. It IS possible though.

Last thing advice-wise: you said you need to take life more seriously. IMHO that's the opposite of what you need. Just take more honestly and with more reflection and humility, just like you've already started to do in your post. Let the fucking idiots on the TV news worry about being serious. Fuck that. You need more fun in your life, and you need you as a higher priority. Don't be serious about, be passionate about it. It's about love, play, life, doing, and being better, kinder to yourself. You are worth it.

Bravo a second time on your honesty. You've made a great start. Be proud of yourself. Be kind to yourself.

If no one has told you that they love you today,
well, I do.

Gotta get to work now.

peace,
pods no more
 
Kosmos7 said:
BTW I've wanted to get a decent scale for a while... Does this one look good enough? http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Gram-Jewelry-Scale/dp/B000O37TDO
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Perfect. I wouldn't trust it to weigh jewelry, but it will suit your purposes to a T. Once you get it, get a handle on how much you're taking, when, and maybe why. A good idea is to start a journal. Write down how much you take, the time(s), and a little note or two on how you're feeling. Like, are you in WDs, or just kinda low feeling. Eventually you'll use that info to reflect on why you use, and that will help you to start taking only when you really need to. This will give you a good idea of where to start that proper taper. It'll be up to you whether you want to start your taper more comfy and go slow, or if you want to be more aggressive. Thing is, you have to figure it out for yourself using your own judgement, my humble advice, and the experiences of others as you can find on other forums. Look around.

Good for you in all departments!

all my best,
pnm
 
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