• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Serious Warning about Ethylphenidate aka Ethylcaine - Danger to your testicles?!

100 percent. Procedures that are enantiomer specific, enantiomer preserving, and those that produce racemates are quite obvious. If someone can handle synthesizing ethylphenidate, they can handle navigating stereochemistry.

ebola
At least you would think so. Do they label it accordingly is the other question though. I can only stress how shocked I was when receiving a psychedelic substance from a reputable lab, a generous amount of it. According to NMR analysis the purity was very high, but nonetheless they skipped some very easy to perform cleaning procedures. I have consistently found non water soluble substances in the product, which can easily be avoided by dissolving the substance in water and filtering it. It's a very short and easy process. Remaining impurities could've been taken care of with some activated charcoal or further recrystallizations. These labs just don't give a flying fuck about consumer health, the more substance they can pump out in a day, the more money flows into their pockets.

Some of these labs also seem to limit themselves to very specific substances and fail to extend their offers to substances with structural differences, with such narrow specializations you could almost get the idea that the chemists behind the synthesis aren't very knowledgable when it comes to chemistry, but instead just built a cheap and very basic kitchen lab. I've never seen these labs from the inside, never talked to any of the responsible chemists, but there's no denying the quality often leaves room for improvement, even when talking about very reputable sources. It is remarkable that we see a lot of DOC, DOI and DON being produced which are the easiest three to synthesize in that group, but DOM seems to be rare as hell despite it's supposed superiority according to trip reports floating around. It makes me wonder: Is there less demand for DOM because the cost per dosage is higher or are these labs just very amateurish?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing to what you said at about stereochemistry at all. If they should produce a racemate though, the separation process (while pretty simple with two enantiomers) isn't all that accurate. It depends on how many times you go through the process what the ratio of enantiomers will be in the end, if I am not mistaken.

These labs are basically made up of criminals, and do not necessarily contain able chemists. They export substances which they to be illegal in the countries of destination and are willing to mislabel them as something else. That isn't exactly the behaviour of professional chemists, but closer to what a professional criminal would do. Anyone can do a synthesis when taught by someone else. Think clandestine methamphetamine laboratories run by drug crazed rednecks (or is that a cliché?). You do not necessarily need much knowledge about what you are doing as long as you know what to do. This will reflect onto the quality of the product. You don't even have to know what an enantiomer is to perform such procdures, eventough I do not know how difficult an ethylphenidate synthesis is, what route they're chosing and what starting materials they have available.

In theory you are of course correct though. It would on the other hand make sense to produce a racemic product when a starting material is cheaper in that form. They would end up with the same amount of product, nmr analysis would not show the enantiomer composition, eventhough the effects would be diminished or different depending on the substance in question. Advantage for the lab in that case would be less production cost and higher profit. These are just speculations...
 
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c00k said:
Do they label it accordingly is the other question though.

I think that confusion would more likely arise in communications between mid-level distributors in the US, UK, and elsewhere and the Chinese chemists from which they're purchasing. "Whoops, the chemist thought I wanted l-ethylphenidate? Well, now I gotta sell this shit anyway..." It's mainly that I got a vibe of "the Chinese are incompetent" from bolinas, which requires empirical data, lest we simply reproduce our own stereotypes.

Some of these labs also seem to limit themselves to very specific substances and fail to extend their offers to substances with structural differences, with such narrow specializations you could almost get the idea that the chemists behind the synthesis aren't very knowledgable when it comes to chemistry, but instead just built a cheap and very basic kitchen lab.

I think that we are instead seeing the effect of capitalism on patterns of motivation among professionals. These are industrial labs producing by the kg+. But can skipping a couple washes save a few yuan without eliciting too severe of consumer protest? Then they'll fucking skip them... :p

It is remarkable that we see a lot of DOC, DOI and DON being produced which are the easiest three to synthesize in that group, but DOM seems to be rare as hell despite it's supposed superiority according to trip reports floating around. It makes me wonder: Is there less demand for DOM because the cost per dosage is higher or are these labs just very amateurish?

DOM is more widely prohibited as a controlled substance; in the US, it's schedule 1.

These labs are basically made up of criminals, and do not necessarily contain able chemists. They export substances which they to be illegal in the countries of destination and are willing to mislabel them as something else.

I disagree. They are pumping out shit-tons of grey market research chemicals and almost none that are scheduled in the US.

ebola
 
Ethylphenidate is intrinsically caustic, I have twice recrystalized a medium sized batch until I had large high purity crystals. I gave 30mg to my GF and she experienced a nosebleed after a single use. It was the first nosebleed she had ever had.
 
Hey, this is a comment to all those out there who think it "might just be psychological" or sitting funny....

No.

Every single time this stuff went up my nose, my balls hurt. Every single time for the last several times. I tried to ignore it. I TRIED to pretend it was unrelated. Ingestion of this chemical makes my balls hurt. Period. I'm not a moron. I just got an honours degree in chemistry at a very reputable university. The scientific method is not unknown to me.

Hypothesis: Snorting this shit will make my balls hurt.
Procedure: Snort this shit.
Results: Balls Hurt.
Conclusion: Snorting this shit makes my balls hurt.
 
Hypothesis: Snorting this shit will make my balls hurt.
Procedure: Snort this shit.
Results: Balls Hurt.
Conclusion: Snorting this shit makes my balls hurt.

For some reason that made me chuckle. I did blast my way through a gram of this stuff but I think I will just source some methylphenidate for next time. Some of these newer RCs are turning out quite nasty it seems...
 
Ethylphenidate hurting your balls??? =D Haha, I laughed out loud.
First of all you shouldn't snort ehtylphenidate. The way it burns in my nose can't be healthy. Oral works just fine... (longer duration is a nice advantage too)
I don't get it why people get chest pains or other strange problems. This drug is a good method to stimulate production, work, studying. Keep the dosage rather low though.
I find it very smooth imo. Nasty is a completely wrong word.

A double blind study would be better than Benze's conclusion, that's science unworthy.
 
I wasn't too concerned about the burning nose. Oral didn't work well for me. Also... I was using it instead of cocaine, which I like to avoid. But to replace it... I still feel the need for lines.

Totally not science unworthy. Ethylphenidate, without question, makes MY balls hurt. Fact.

This is SEVERE pain in the depths of my scrotum. I tried REALLY hard to pretend it was unrelated. Whether it makes YOUR balls hurt is not the question being addressed. It makes MY balls hurt, with 100% certainty, and pain serves to discourage further injury. This substance, 100%, is injurious to MY balls. Maybe nothing severe. Maybe something quite severe. But I don't understand why a harm reduction forum would not want to at least keep note of the fact that some percentage of the population gets sore balls from this. Again, I am not the first person to address this ball pain.
 
Ethylphenidate hurting your balls??? =D Haha, I laughed out loud.
First of all you shouldn't snort ehtylphenidate. The way it burns in my nose can't be healthy. Oral works just fine... (longer duration is a nice advantage too)
I don't get it why people get chest pains or other strange problems. This drug is a good method to stimulate production, work, studying. Keep the dosage rather low though.
I find it very smooth imo. Nasty is a completely wrong word.

A double blind study would be better than Benze's conclusion, that's science unworthy.
Anecdotal reports are not "science unworthy". The first stages of clinical trials are performed on small groups and if certain side effects occur even with single subjects, the drug is usually withdrawn from trials...

Just cause double blind studies are the gold standard does not mean every other report has to be ignored. I'm sure you have heard of the introduction of thalidomid.

I wasn't too concerned about the burning nose. Oral didn't work well for me. Also... I was using it instead of cocaine, which I like to avoid. But to replace it... I still feel the need for lines.

Totally not science unworthy. Ethylphenidate, without question, makes MY balls hurt. Fact.

This is SEVERE pain in the depths of my scrotum. I tried REALLY hard to pretend it was unrelated. Whether it makes YOUR balls hurt is not the question being addressed. It makes MY balls hurt, with 100% certainty, and pain serves to discourage further injury. This substance, 100%, is injurious to MY balls. Maybe nothing severe. Maybe something quite severe. But I don't understand why a harm reduction forum would not want to at least keep note of the fact that some percentage of the population gets sore balls from this. Again, I am not the first person to address this ball pain.
Just ignore these people. They're usually way too caught up in whatever drug craze the internet allowed them to enter, probably still in their stimulant honeymoon phase or whatever. Either way you did the right thing to report such problems and if reports of similar issues accumulate, these folks will be forgotten quickly. Thanks for your concern for the health of the drug community!
Would you mind copy-pasting the other person's report about this issue?
 
people are taking too much of this. as in 10 times too much... at least. i say ban RC's unless you want to make them yourself!
 
I have 3x recrystalized a batch of confirmed identity (via MP and GC-MS) and it still gave nosebleeds to my friends. I think this material is intrinsically caustic, it is not the result of an impurity.
 
No shit, this is caustic... it's supplied as a HCl salt...

Pretty much every primary/secondary amine small-molecule amphetamine-like drug I can think of is going to be corrosive to nasal mucosa.
 
The question is rather as to whether ethylphenidate is more caustic than hydrochloride salts of similar compounds. Anecdotal reports to date are rather disconcerting...

ebola
 
I dunno, ask anyone who's snorted 2c-x and I bet they'll tell you aout nasal damage.
 
Anyone who has snorted 2C-x with enough regularity to notice any damage is braver than me. Still, people snort methamphetamine and mephedrone regularly without too much trouble, I can vouch for 2C-x being much more painful than meph, I can believe that there are degrees of ungoodness.
 
The problem with snorting the 2c-x series is the constant build up in pain for 5 minutes, and the fact that it plateaus for a good 5 minutes too!
 
Anecdotal reports are not "science unworthy". The first stages of clinical trials are performed on small groups and if certain side effects occur even with single subjects, the drug is usually withdrawn from trials...

Just cause double blind studies are the gold standard does not mean every other report has to be ignored. I'm sure you have heard of the introduction of thalidomid.

I've heard of it, pretty tragic :/
My reply was a little bit too emotional. Bluelight is a wonderful site, but sometimes I hate the thousand and one posts in the big and dandy threads. I find it hard to build rational info in my head.
His report sounds like one of the 'on 4-aco-dmt the visuals were like dmt'... (there's dmt in the name....)

Does anyone has an explanation for the burning sensation? It feels like eph causes a nuclear waste land after snorting :p
 
Totally not science unworthy. Ethylphenidate, without question, makes MY balls hurt. Fact.

It's been noted before, hence you finding reports of this side effect already. Without any kind of medical analysis of your balls in relation to this substance you have no proof of it being anything other than a possible sensitivity to this drug in certain people, that you took to big a dose, or that it may be more peripherally vasoconstricting (complimented by the alcohol maybe?) than expected.

Just because my prescription Adderall sometimes makes my balls hurt when it raises my blood pressure too high doesn't mean it's scientifically or statistically significant or without reasonable explanation.. For someone who is in the chemistry field you really don't sound like someone who understands responsible drug use, let alone understands that there could be many possible unforeseen reactions to a research chemical of questionable production/origin. Next time try using Occam's razor before you start swinging wild.

As far as this being caustic or how caustic, salt+water=acid so no matter how you slice it they just about all feel like bleach going up (ime at least). I guess what acid is liberated from the salt probably effects the strength of the burn though.
 
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salt+water=acid

er...no. salt+water = cation + anion in solution (eg, a sodium chloride solution does not liberate any kind of acid). The modified organic compound will take an additional proton, acting as the cation, the de-protonated acid acting as the anion (eg, chloride, sulphate). The pH of the solution will not be acidic.

(note: I could be wrong--I have not taken chemistry formally.)

ebola
 
It the most simplest terms, the salt of a strong acid and a weak base will be slightly acidic in solution, and the salt of a weak acid and strong base will be slightly basic.

Ep-NH.HCl (+) H2O --> Ep-NH2+ (+) Cl-
Ep-NH2+ (+) H2O <----> Ep-NH + H3O+

The H3O+ ions make the solution acidic.

Methylphenidate for example has a pKa of 8.9 (http://www.erowid.org/pharms/methylphenidate/methylphenidate_info1.shtml) and so a 0,1N solution in water would have a pH of 4.95 which is moderately acidic
 
The other thing to consider is the osmotic pressure from having concentrated salt solutions around your nasal mucosa.
 
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