Friends with a racist.

[Kenickie]

I have this Swedish friend who talks about how whenever Swedes and Norwegians meet up or end up in the same bar. They tell racist jokes about each other. And the MORE racist and offensive it gets the more wild and fun the party gets.

 

[freddy47]

^I fail to see the significance of your double

Swedes and Norwegians are different peoples if you're implying that they aren't.

They are both Scandinavians sure but no less different.

 

[thujone]

i'm astounded at the responses in this thread. i have absolutely no space in my life for friends who have any bigotry in them, what so ever. i even shut my father out for a year while i was dating a hispanic man because he had racist attitudes towards hispanic people. i want to think that he got over it before he died but who knows?

i'm one of those people who cyc says would suck the joy right out of a room, because usually, i'm the only not white person in the room, and i refuse to have any of that shit around me. it's pure poison and i will not subject myself to more micro aggressions than i already deal with. it took me a few years to get there but i won't stand for it anymore, ever. i would give your friend an ultimatum, because honestly, if i met you and your friend at the same time and she said something and you were there, even if you confronted her about it, i would assume you shared the same feelings because you chose to remain friends with her. it's not funny, it's not okay, it's not just words and it's ridiculously privileged to even be having this conversation.

That's disappointing. Tolerance goes such a long way against racism that it's not even funny, especially because most of the people in our age group who might be considered racist are merely acting as conduits for the bigoted sentiments of their family circle. I've personally known at least a dozen people during my life who have been profoundly influenced by people who were tolerant enough to show them the ugliness of bigotry, and seen only anger and misery result when someone had an opportunity to be tolerant and shuttered up/stormed away instead. It's very difficult to help other people appreciate what makes you different from them if you aren't first willing to appreciate what makes them different from you; blemishes and all.

To the OP: don't laugh at the jokes and people will stop telling them to you.

 

[Gnarles Bronson]

I think it all depends on if you are being serious or not.

The problem with this girl was that she wasn't telling a joke, she was using a real life example to justify her racial prejudice.

 

[freddy47]

I found this funny.

http://dailycandor.com/what-europeans-think-of-each-other/

 

[Cyc]

side note: why does having a racially diverse group of friends make it "okay" to tell more racist/race based/racially insensitive/questionable jokes/comments/whatever? shouldn't the exact opposite be true? shouldn't it be now that you are friends with asians/hispanics/black people, you are more aware of your own behavior? i don't understand this at all. ethnic friends does not = a pass.

I think you really have to be aware of the context here and perhaps I didn't do a good job setting the scene. You're talking about people who have been friends for a long time, and a culture that is far less racially charged than (from what I understand) exists in the Mid-west and Southern US - then you have to add partying and a raucous sense of humour. It's not racist 'jokes' more like racist derp. It's nonsense.

It's like, we'll be playing a game and someone will make a little mistake and their sig. other will yell, 'You dumb cunt!' and everyone laughs. Or my gf got a volleyball injury and for the next two weeks I walked around telling everyone, 'she just wouldn't listen..' With my buddy's native girlfriend, if she gets really excited, I will tell her to chill out, relax, and be more like the grazing buffalo. Don't get the impression that I walk around to people on the street and act this way, and it's not like, "Three guys walk into a bar.." This is just a stupid sort of thing that evolved with a very specific group of people who have been trying to one-up each other in terms of outrageousness for years. If there's anyone else in the room, it doesn't fly. And really, this is the sort of thing that we've lost interest in as we've all gotten older. I was referring back in time.

Actually, the most offended someone got was last summer, when the CFO of my buddy's company came up to another friend's place after the strip club. This is a German company and the CFO is German as well, here on a working Visa. We were all drinking pretty heavy, headed up to order some food, and my friend (who doesn't work for this company) starts goosestepping toward the elevator, saluting along the way like an asshole. The German CFO, not knowing us very well, got very offended and almost left, but after a lot of apologizing and explaining, ended up staying. So, I definitely get what you mean that it's not appropriate for everyone.

Racism gets laughed out of the room - but context is everything here. Without that, you risk offending someone. We're the type of folks who debate things at length. If there's nothing to debate, we'll debate the bloody weather for an hour. If anyone had any serious racist sentiments, it would get floored for discussion and it would be taken care of. I don't want to play the black girlfriend card here, but I don't think I could be with my partner for the last 6 years if I had racism in my heart. Living in Canada, she has never experienced real racism, other than once in high school when she traveled to Texas for Drum Corps. To her, racism is something you read about in 'Roots' or watch in, 'The Help' - It's just not part of our daily lives.

To me, racism is ridiculous. I don't see why we should treat it with such a solemn respect. I can think of no better way to take the power away from bigotry than to laugh at it.

 

[freddy47]

Actually, the most offended someone got was last summer, when the CFO of my buddy's company came up to another friend's place after the strip club. This is a German company and the CFO is German as well, here on a working Visa. We were all drinking pretty heavy, headed up to order some food, and my friend (who doesn't work for this company) starts goosestepping toward the elevator, saluting along the way like an asshole. The German CFO got very offended and almost left, but after a lot of apologizing, ended up staying. So, I definitely get what you mean that it's not appropriate for everyone.

That is just not funny. In fact I would say that is a terrible and tasteless joke.

Here is a way funnier German Joke.

German pilot, German airline, German airport: Asks tower a question in German.

Tower (in English): If you want an answer you must ask in English.

German: Im German, in Germany, flying a German plane.. why do I have to speak English?

English pilot: Because you lost the bloody war…

 

[Gnarles Bronson]

In Heaven…

the mechanics are German
the chefs are French
the police are British
the lovers are Italian
and everything is organized by the Swiss.

In Hell…

the mechanics are French
the police are German
the chefs are British
the lovers are Swiss
and everything is organized by the Italians.

I think theres a difference between racial jokes, (or in this case jokes about nationality) and racist jokes. (I thought the above was pretty funny fwiw.)

Racist jokes are only funny if you don't mean them. I think jokes about nationality can have a little more leeway; I, for one, amn't really offended when people make jokes about fat/stupid americans; I guess because I partly agree, and partly can take it to mean americans who aren't me. Making a racist joke is necessarily inclusive, so if you said white people are fat and stupid I would be more offended.

 

[Cyc]

That behavior doesn't fly where I'm from. Though, I think I'll grant that it has special significant down here, like casually calling somebody a Nazi in Europe does. Suffice to say its "not ok". Its cool and all to have a "safe space" to work out taboos, and I think for most people, telling racist jokes is about the flirtation with the forbidden, and learning about/probing societal boundaries, but you need to own up to the fact that when you joke about lazy mexicans, or poor driving asians, or greedy jews, you are contributing, in aggregate, to some of the nastiest impulses in history. Food for thought.

To the OP— I'd just stop spending much time with this person. They sound chronically ignorant and incurious.

I will reflect on this. To be honest, I never thought about it as an impulse that contributes to an overall damaging effect, but more like something to be cleansed through catharsis and humour until it's dispelled and harmless.

I guess it comes down to the belief of whether blindness to racism contributes to it. Definition of racism aside, some might argue that the worst proponents are those who allow it to continue around them. I've always disagreed. It seems to me that the quickest way to beat racism is to cut through it, not tiptoe around it. I'd like to think that I simply take racial equality for granted, and that racism is some silly meme to make fun of.

 

[freddy47]

I think theres a difference between racial jokes, (or in this case jokes about nationality) and racist jokes. (I thought the above was pretty funny fwiw.)

Racist jokes are only funny if you don't mean them. I think jokes about nationality can have a little more leeway; I, for one, amn't really offended when people make jokes about fat/stupid americans; I guess because I partly agree, and partly can take it to mean americans who aren't me. Making a racist joke is necessarily inclusive, so if you said white people are fat and stupid I would be more offended.

IMO there is a fine line between definitions of nationality and race.

For example would you consider Chinese and Japanese people to be of the same race? Some would. I and others would say definitely not. Nor would I consider French and Germans of the same race either. Although they both arguably descended from Germanic tribes during Roman times I don't think that necessarily means they all fit into the same category. What I am saying is it would be easy to group all us Asians up as being of the Asian race. But I think most people especially in Asia would say Koreans are different from Japanese and Chinese different from Koreans etc...

Jews for the most part (or at least as far as I can tell) are white in that they have white skin. But the Holocaust is considered to be racially motivated and the Germans are also white. Same thing with the Rwanda genocide. Here you have the Hutus (black) and the Tutsi tribe (also black) killing each other because of racial hatred.

In short the definition of race is vague and people still debate on what actually defines a race.

 

[axl blaze]

race-oriented jokes are one thing, but I don't think I'd tolerate a racist person enough to befriend them. racism is just the one thing that truly hurts and confuses me greatly. it's just something that I can not imagine

 

[Busty St Clare]

Like most things it is only offensive once someone is offended. If someone isn't pulled up for a racist joke or remark then they might not realise the problem. The only thing worse than a racist is someone who sits beside them and is silent. We should be able to laugh at ourselves but intelligent people know when humor has turned to hatred. Blind hatred to complete strangers simply due to their heritage is a disease far more hurtful than a joke about a stereotype.

Some people have justified reason for their hatred. I find it had to begrudge many of the WWII vets I have met who survive being Japanese prisoners of war. Obviously today's Japanese generation had nothing to do with their horrific torture but I guess they have earned their prejudices through a lifetime of horrific memories. Hopefully their hatred will eventually be buried with their passing.

Like it or not stereotypes exist for a reason. Germans are humorless more often than not, the French do come across as arrogant while the loudest and proudest are usually American (unless there is a drunk Australian in the room). I used to live and work in an English town where more than half the population was Indian or Pakistani. The under current of racism here was some of the worse I have ever experienced, a lot of it earned though. Even my Asian mates would agree that you are more likely to be ripped off in a business deal from one of their own, it is just a culture of haggling I guess, where as I would be more aware of my safety when walking past a group of white men. It is called playing the percentages.

There will always be times when such stereotypes are incorrect but that doesn't mean you should completely ignore them. Insurance companies use a whole range of statistics when setting rates of their premiums. Is it sexist when they determine a difference between women and men? Probably, but that doesn't stop them charging more. The same could be argued for a lot of racial stereotypes. The problem arises when you use these prejudices to blind yourself from a persons real personality.

To paraphrase Austin Power's father, " I hate two things in this world, the racial intolerant, and the Dutch "

 

[freddy47]

^100% agreed

 

[Max Power]

Like most things it is only offensive once someone is offended.

If a racist joke is told in the woods and no one is there to hear it, is it still offensive?

One thing I've notice is there is funny "racial humor" out there, albeit uncommon, but if you're observant/intelligent enough to realize it's satire and completely tongue-in-cheek, you appreciate the joke because it was actually funny (structure-wise, maybe it was a good pun or whatever). On the other hand, a true 'racist', 'prejudiced', whatever person might hear the same joke and laugh, but also nod his or her head in agreement and completely miss out on the fact it was told with the underlying assumption the stereotypes are false and/or grossly exaggerated for comedic effect. So you have two people hearing the same joke and laughing at it (because it was funny), but only one of them believes the premise is completely factual. "Playing off a stereotype" is one thing, but actually wholeheartedly believing that stereotype is another.

 

[LuGoJ]

I have a lifelong friend that became racist after being locked up, had some bad experiences in there and it fucked with his head. I made it very clear that I don’t agree and that I don’t want to hear any comments about his beliefs and he has respected my wishes for the past 10 years. Good people say, do and believe dumb things all of the time. Hopefully one day he will see how stupid he is being and maybe I will help him realize it but I’m not going to throw him out of my life because of a silly belief he has. I would like to think my friends wouldn’t disown me because I had a wacky belief.

 

[Samadhi]

I've been amazed at the casual racism that i've experienced since living in Queensland. I grew up here, and then moved to Melbourne for a few years; i'm not talking about overt name calling, etc (although i'm sure it happens ), but things like cab drivers thinking it's ok to tell a racist joke (which they are immediately pulled up about), a white man in a shopping centre seeing a group of islander youth mucking around and giving them the stink eye - then looking at me with knowing eyes, as if i'd just roll my eyes and commiserate with him - he got the stink eye right back. They are just a couple of examples, and maybe because i lived in such a multicultural place for a while, coming back has made me more aware? I've heard indigenous folk referred to as 'coon' and 'boong', again, very casually. It's like there is complete ignorance that those terms are derogatory and very offensive to indigenous Australians. I simply don't tolerate it - the ignorance pisses me off as much as the subject matter (the racism). There just seems to be no awareness, and an inherent selfishness to the behaviour. There is no thought to how their language could affect people around them. If I hear it, I have *no* qualms about speaking up.

To the OP - if your friend's behaviour offends you, tell her. It's pretty simple.

 

[Belisarius]

I have a close friend who's openly racist--especially when he's in his cups--though he's a member of a minority himself, and has other black friends. It's just one of the reasons I limit my contact with him; that I'm still friends with him at all has more to do with a stubborn, foolhardy loyalty to my own (like the OP, he's my oldest friend, and we've been through a lot together) than my lack of offense, because I know if I were around him too long I'd snap. Time is slowly cleaving us apart, which is all to the good for more reasons than I'm willing to get into; perhaps if you don't want a violent break you can similarly just slowly peripheralize her.

And--on a lighter note--as long as we're talking nationality jokes, here's a BBC parody from MadTV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9dn1HhYXpE

 

[Miss_vanilla]

I've been amazed at the casual racism that i've experienced since living in Queensland. I grew up here, and then moved to Melbourne for a few years; i'm not talking about overt name calling, etc (although i'm sure it happens ), but things like cab drivers thinking it's ok to tell a racist joke (which they are immediately pulled up about), a white man in a shopping centre seeing a group of islander youth mucking around and giving them the stink eye - then looking at me with knowing eyes, as if i'd just roll my eyes and commiserate with him - he got the stink eye right back. They are just a couple of examples, and maybe because i lived in such a multicultural place for a while, coming back has made me more aware? I've heard indigenous folk referred to as 'coon' and 'boong', again, very casually. It's like there is complete ignorance that those terms are derogatory and very offensive to indigenous Australians. I simply don't tolerate it - the ignorance pisses me off as much as the subject matter (the racism). There just seems to be no awareness, and an inherent selfishness to the behaviour. There is no thought to how their language could affect people around them. If I hear it, I have *no* qualms about speaking up.

I cringe when I hear words like that. It sounds so ignorant I can't help but think badly of them. Maybe that says more about me than them, I don't know, but it's a knee jerk reaction which I can't control. Worse, when they say, "oh I'm going to offend the PC police" then proceed to make an offensive comment - if you know it's offensive, then don't say it! Since when is being respectful of people "PC" anyway?

I can't agree it's just 'words' either. Words have incredible ability to harm or heal. Words cause wars, abuse, violence, they can change a community culture to look down on certain demographics. It's not like primary school when mum told you to ignore someone if they were mean to you, as we get older words and the way we relate to people become so much more important.