Opioids Have YOU experienced precipitated WD's when IVing Suboxone w/ no other opiates in U?

[Tommyboy]

Have YOU experienced precipitated WD's from IV Suboxone w/ no other opiates in you?

We were recently discussing this topic in this thread, and had wanted to get a poll going in there, but I figure it is deserving of its own thread.

So for those of you that have IV'd Suboxone (buprenorphine and naloxone) with no other opiates in your system, did you experience precipitated withdrawals, or no? We all know that taking suboxone will put you into precipitated wd if you have other opiates already occupying your receptors, no matter the ROA. The naloxone is said to be a deterrent for those that wish to IV the suboxone, but let's see what you all have to say.

A poll would be would be fantastic. And remember, the question isn't about going into precipitated withdrawal if you took the suboxone too soon after other opiates, this is strictly about IVing the suboxone after waiting the appropriate amount of time, or IVing it after administering it using nasal, sublingual, plugging, or any other ROAs.

Along with your answer, please include the dose, and any other relevant information.

 

[Tommyboy]

As for me;

I have used suboxone via IV once, and did not experience precipitated withdrawals. I had taken it sublingually for 3 days in a row before that, at doses of 2-8mgs. I then IV'd a little over 1mg on that third day, felt a delayed rush, and was fine.

 

[spacejunk]

i've shot it a couple of times; never had precipitated WD.
for that matter, i've also consumed suboxone with (small amounts) of other opiates (codeine, poppy tea - on separate occasions) in my system, and i've never had precipitated withdrawals.
not that i would suggest anyone do the same thing (i didn't know about that phenomenon when i first tried subs recreationally) but i'm guessing it could be because i was on a fairly low dose (of other opies and the subs) at the time, thus my receptors weren't flooded?
anyway, that's off-topic - i IV'd suboxone with no complications.

 

[BrokedownPalace]

MOD NOTE: Poll added - 1/13/12

 

[Znegative]

Just voted to no. I HAVE experienced precipitated withdrawals, but it was from sublingual suboxone during induction. I used to shoot my suboxone every day and never had a problem as far as withdrawals go. I would get a kind of mini rush a minute after the shot (sometimes even get that dope taste in my mouth) and the bupe would kick in.

I do want to express that I shot very low dosages of suboxone, usually .2-.3mg per shot. The largest amount of suboxone I shot at a single time was 8 mg, which is obviously way too much

 

[Tommyboy]

MOD NOTE: Poll added - 1/13/12

Thanks man. You wrote the date the American way though.

 

[andghosts]

I did not experience precipitated withdrawal following 8mg and 16mg Suboxone doses via IV and/or intranasal ROA with 4 and 9 days clean of opiates nor did I following 6mg, 8mg and/or 18mg Suboxone doses via IV and/or intranasal ROA following moderate to heavy opiate use (heroin, fentanyl and hydromorphone) within the last 24, 48 and 72 hours. I feel that precipitated withdrawal is nothing more than a scare tactic to deter addicts from abusing it. This makes sense since the Buprenorphine to Naloxone ratio is 4:1 and Buprenorphine's half-life of 20-70 h outlasts Naloxone's mere 1-1.5 h, although isolated and exceptional cases are possible.

 

[Jabberwocky]

When I used to use heroin, I found I only had to wait only about six hours after my last dose (generally intranasal) to avoid P/W. Once I even avoid them after just four hours.

However, I took a wopping dose of loperamide (about 180mg) the other day, as I was out of Suboxone. First of all, the loperamide got me off substantially even though the bupe was still in my system - with opioids like hydrocodone I would have to wait a week+ to get a buzz. The next day, when I got my Suboxone script refilled, more than 24hrs after taking the loperamide, I had what I believe to be a mildish case of P/W. It was like a really bad, but thankfully really short, if intense, episode of withdrawal following a big dope habit. The worst part about it was the intense anxiety and sweating, but a hot shower too care of that and in about an hours.

A half after it came on I was starting to feel substantially better. Two hours after taking the suboxone, maybe three, I ended up catching a nice buzz from the bupe. It was of an intensity I hadn't experienced in years, not since I used to take bupe recreationally and didn't have much of a habit.

I love happy endings

 

[Znegative]

I did not experience precipitated withdrawal following 8mg and 16mg Suboxone doses via IV and/or intranasal ROA with 4 and 9 days clean of opiates nor did I following 6mg, 8mg and/or 18mg Suboxone doses via IV and/or intranasal ROA following moderate to heavy opiate use (heroin, fentanyl and hydromorphone) within the last 24, 48 and 72 hours. I feel that precipitated withdrawal is nothing more than a scare tactic to deter addicts from abusing it. This makes sense since the Buprenorphine to Naloxone ratio is 4:1 and Buprenorphine's half-life of 20-70 h outlasts Naloxone's mere 1-1.5 h, although isolated and exceptional cases are possible.

Precipitated withdrawal is very real, but i believe you are right, in that it has nothing to do with the naloxone. Subutex can put you into precipitated withdrawal just the same. And it also doesn't matter how you take your suboxone/buprenorphine, as I mentioned above I believe, the only time I had really bad precipitated withdrawal was twelve hours after my last shot of opana, and I took 2mg sublingually. It an hour or two and was really fucking uncomfortable. I feel like taking suboxone sublingually too early actually makes the precipitated withdrawal last longer.

 

[Crankinit]

edit: just realized this thread was actually created in response to the discussion in my original thread about my experience, so this post is rather redundant Decided to delete what I originally wrote (just earlire) and replace it with the older, slightly more accurate account from the original thread for the sake of posterity.

Background: I'm on 24mg of suboxone film a day, and have been for the last two months, during which I've stuck to the program and avoided all other opiates.

Now earlier this afternoon I was bored and had some fits around, so I did some reading to confim what I remember reading ages back, and every single source I came across suggested that the bupe had a higher affinity for the receptors than the naloxone, and as such you could IV bupe without going into withdrawal.

So I went through the process of prepping up my dose, I only used 16mg, dissolved, filtered, etc. Hit a vein and shot.

Within 15 sconds I had a horrible tingling feeling run down my body. Within 30 seconds I was drowned in sweat. Within a minute I had to rush to the bathroom and was struck by horrible nausea and diarrhea at the same time, having to throw up into a bowl while sitting on the toilet. I continued sweating profusely and just generally feeling horrible (my eyes dilated to the point that I looked like I'd been smoking ice) and my heart rate shot up dramatically. most of the symptoms abated within30 - 45 minutes, although the nausea persisted for another hour or so until I IM'd an anti-emetic. Eventually once the nausea was suffiently under control I necked some benzos and passed out for a few hours, then woke up fine.

I brought it up and some people suggested that the naloxone was overpowering the bupe because of the dimnished returns and eventual ceiling dose, which in retrospect seemed obvious, so I decided to try experimenting again with IVing various lower doses under the 8mg range. Each time I had the same result, not so dramatically, but a definite case of precipitated withdrawal, complete with sweating, pain, dysphoria, diarrhea, tachycardia, anxiety and dilated pupils, each time it would last 2 - 3 hours, then I'd revert to a slightly stronger than usual bupe effect. Luckily I learned my lesson and dosed promethazine beforehand, so no nausea or vomiting. Eventually gave it up for a waste when I got down to, I think it was 2mg, and still felt pretty shitty for the first few hours after the shot.

In none of these cases had I dosed any opiate other than suboxone for at least several weeks prior.

 

[twotoomany]

If you don't have opiates in your system, it can't be precipitated withdrawal, can it? PW is caused by the bupe kicking other opes off the receptors. Maybe you have an allergy to naloxone or bupe?

 

[deidara]

I've shot suboxone in doses ranging from 1mg to 4mg and have always been fine. I'm not surprised by the results of this poll so far at all. IMO the naloxone is completely inert, a simple scare tactic. It's funny how doctors think addicts are dumb though, when I was trying to get on bupe, I wanted a doc that would prescribe generic subutex, because I don't have insurance and it's about half the price of the films. The doctor that I saw thought I was just trying to get them so I could abuse them, and when I told her suboxone films are just as abusable as straight bupe, I mentioned bupe having a higher binding affinity than naloxone, and the much longer half-life, she didn't really know what to say. I think she realized I'm an educated junky and she couldnt trick me, so she just gave me the subutex. HA!

 

[Crankinit]

If you don't have opiates in your system, it can't be precipitated withdrawal, can it? PW is caused by the bupe kicking other opes off the receptors. Maybe you have an allergy to naloxone or bupe?

It can also be caused by naloxone kicking bupe off the receptors, it would seem. Usually this requires a higher dose than you get in suboxone, but apparently that isn't the case for me (and I've spoken to others who've also experienced it). There's a very immediate, obvious difference between precipitated withdrawal and an allergic reaction.

 

[Slum Survivor]

i used to IV bupe both subutex and suboxone... then i had a break for a while like 6 months. got hooked back on H, and just tried to IV a VERY small peice of a strip about 9-10 hours after last IV H dosage. it was the first time in my life ive ever had P/W and it was horrible for about an hour.

now that the P/W has subsided a bit... can i use more bupe without getting more P/W? its been about 12-13 hrs since last H IV at this point.

The P/W also flared up my sciatica really badly for some reason... my leg is killing me. im certainly scared of P/W now and never use to understand it.

 

[Slum Survivor]

whoops i was way off subject last night. sorry folks. i ended up spending a few hours in the local emergency room last night with my sciatica. i was screaming in i was such pain.

but to answer the original topic... i dont think the naloxone can do anything to the bupe. ive shot peices of strips too many times for that ot be the case. never did the suboxone itself cause P/W because of the naloxone in my case.

ive never ever had P/W except for my mistake last night, when i must of still had quite a bit more dope left in my system than i thought. as soon as i took that needle out i knew i was FUUCKED!! super bad w/d right away, that led to a life changing-ly bad night.
i had to get a anti inflammatory shot of something that starts with a T that i cant seem to remember enough of the name to find online at this point. and they gave me two 5/500 hydro's (big whoop, i know) and a 5 mg Valium tablet. i was sent home after that took the edge off ever so slightly and they gave me a script for 20 more 5/500's and 20 more valium, along with some ibuprofen.
relief didnt come until i managed to get my hands on more dope earlier today. luckily i think my sciatica is starting to calm back down as time is passing as well.
its almost like the shot of suboxone caused this whole mess tho... so perhaps the naloxone DID get me that time since i didnt already have sub in me and wasnt sick enough yet?

all i know is precipitated W/D is the worst thing ive ever been thru... id compare it to going thru a bad acid/shrooms trip while already experiencing opiate withdrawal at the same time.

im sry for rambling on but wow... i thought i was gonna die man.

im very scared to shoot the sub strip again, but am desperate to make a single strip last as long as possible. i sure hope we are all mostly right that the naloxone cant touch the bupe...

DOSE SHOT: less than 1mg. ive never shot more than about 1/4 of a strip at a time ever. cant imagine getting much more out of it either.

 

[mrflowers00]

i've never IVed suboxone out of fear or pwds but i have snorted it and didn't have any pwds

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

This is mostly abnormal....I've just had a small withdrawal from snorting like 1/6 of a 8mg suboxone....i guess it was a part with just a lot of naloxone in it because I started to get depressed, then cold sweats (but minimal thankfully) and then I took the largest solid dump (without pain) I ever saw and I can't flush the toilet yet because I know what'll happen, even just tiny nuggets caused by methadone gave me a lot of problems before...sorry but I gotta be clear.

I never thought the eventuality would happen to me though. Note to self, just sublingually take your damn suboxone.

 

[mrflowers00]

i've never done it but i don't see why a different ROA would cause something like pwds

 

[Tommyboy]

i've never done it but i don't see why a different ROA would cause something like pwds

The company behind suboxone [reckitt benckiser] claimed that the naloxone in it became active when IV'd and would cause precipitated withdrawals, thus preventing it from being able to be IV'd. That's the whole reason they got away with making it and having it prescribed instead of subutex. As seen by the poll and many other posts, it was just a ploy to increase sales.

 

[dopemegently]

It didn't make me sick when I tried it once, but it felt nothing like when I used to IV subutex. I have no idea why.