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Safer Use of Stimulants FAQ revised

Since this is about stimulants and safety, and I am an exercise physiologist, I'd like to add my knowledge. It is important to have a strong heart if you are a stimulant user. Stimulants put stress on the heart and raise HR. For most young people, the stress to the heart from use isn't much of a problem. It becomes much more so if alcohol is combined. Try to limit alcohol use with stimulants as much as possible. For safety, any person using coke, MPH, amp, should perform moderate intensity aerobic exercise a couple times a week to keep their heart strong (of course not while on the stimulants).
 
I appreciate your work in gathering and writing all of this information, ebola.

Major props.

<3
 
Very useful information; I will be saving the page in order to look back and follow some of the supplements described above. I do a pretty good job with the very basics--I am going to look into the 5htp though, it seems like something my body would benefit from greatly (duh :p)

Just a question though but first some basic facts about me; I naturally have very low blood pressure I believe around 120/60. I don't quite understand the ratio well so I could be way off haha. I use speed in small doses almost daily. I am a yoga instructor/personal trainer-so if you could imagine I'm very active and exercise quite a bit on the stimulant. I always have been active and healthy. I do weight training, calisthenics(this about 5 days a week in a sauna) along with getting back into a light cardio regimen. (I had a back injury due to over training and in September was ordered not to exercise until better, I was out 7 weeks) At this point is when I started buying the speed because my prescribed anxiety meds (klon.) I was asked to take more for my back in order to relax the muscles around the nerve endings by my L5 (very lower back), I couldn't take and work, so I did speed to take the pain away and made sure not to over do it.

I've kept using because it helps my focus, energy levels (due to anxiety and clinical depression I never had a lot of energy to make it through my day but still had trouble sleeping so traz. is given to me as well)

Sorry for the rant but wanted to give some background info for proper advice/feedback

If I'm following the basic health tips for stimulants including taking supplements, am I doing the "right" thing and being precautious to the point where the negative effects from speed will be greatly reduced/hindered?

p.s: When I did my own weeklong binge of info on speed and how to stay healthy while using I found out my already prescribed pills (Prozac or Flux. , Trazadone & Klon.) are the perfect combination :p
 
Amphetamines dexmethylphenidate and methamphetamine. Is it possible that the dexmethylphenidate can trip a UA for methamphetamine. I know on multiple occasions amphetamines like adderall have shown up positive under amphetamines (witch it should) but also as methamphetamine. This problem is huge. It's denied people jobs, it's got kids that are on aftercare or probation locked back up. I've heard theories that amphetamines taken in high doses can chemically bond somehow and actually turn into methamphetamine in the body. There's been court cases were innocent people who have to take there ADHD medication get accused of abusing meth. I'm wondering if focalin(dexmethylphenidate) can also show up as a methamphetamine or amphetamines.
 
I've been an avid amphetamine user for 4 years now; I'd like to add my two cents.

First of all, every amphetamine/methamphetamine user needs to be well aware of the obscene half-life of these substances. Meth has a half life between 9-12 hours and racemic amphetamine has a half-life of 12 hours for the dextro isomer and 13 hours for the levo isomer.
Think about the math in that. If you take 100mg of amphetamine at 8 in the morning, you're still going to have around 50mg in your system at 8-9pm. You definitely aren't going to get any quality sleep that night.
This is where the comedown/crash and associated anxiety/depression come into play -- the amphetamine is still in your system and is still affecting the central nervous system, but because your brain has simply run out of the resources required to produce positive effects, the positive effects of euphoria and motivation dissipate and all you are left with is a dirty paranoid delusional feeling. So, you end up not being able to sleep or recover due to the amphetamine still being in your system, but you can't get high again because your brain has ran out of resources.

When you are at this stage, there are two types of drugs which will help (albeit they are frowned upon); these are Benzodiazepines and Opiates. Benzodiazepines will help by inhibiting synaptic activity perpetuated by the lingering levels of amphetamine - benzodiazepines will alleviate both the negative physical effects of the 'amphetamine crash' as well as the negative mental effects (neurosis, paranoia, anxiety, obsessive thinking, etc).. Benzodiazepines are actually used by hospitals as a first line treatment for a stimulant overdose in the ER; so the medical use of benzodiazepines for stimulant "comedowns" is entirely legitimate.

Now, the second drug which will help an amphetamine comedown is of course opiates. Opiates will work magic for alleviating a stimulant comedown. Opiates will dilate blood vessels, and reverse some of the negative physical effects caused by amphetamine's vasoconstriction properties. Opiates will also relax muscles which amphetamine would otherwise leave completely tense. Opiates will also alleviate any physical pain from the amphetamine comedown, and also alleviate any anxiety/depression.
Interestingly, using opiates in this manner has far less consequences than one would assume -- its almost as if opiates used in this way balance out the body, and therefore have no real physical consequence. However, I must say that using opiates in this manner is extremely addicting - far more than taking opiates by themselves. You're basically speedballing except being smarter about it.

Alcohol can help with an amphetamine comedown, but I personally have found that if you're going to use alcohol to mitigate a comedown, its best to drink alcohol while your amphetamine is still in effect, rather than drinking alcohol after the amphetamine is mostly worn off. I don't really know why alcohol seems to help more if you drink it while you're still tweaking, other than that maybe amphetamine makes it harder to get hungover while its still in affect, but drinking alcohol while coming down can most definitely make you hungover and cause the comedown to be even worse.
 
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jessylee said:
Just a question though but first some basic facts about me; I naturally have very low blood pressure I believe around 120/60.

This is actually well within the 'normal' range.

IntelligentJunkie said:
If I'm following the basic health tips for stimulants including taking supplements, am I doing the "right" thing and being precautious to the point where the negative effects from speed will be greatly reduced/hindered?

Stimulants will induce muscle-tension that will exacerbate your injury. You cannot counter this effect outright with supplements. It is ill advised for you to take stimulants for now.

I know on multiple occasions amphetamines like adderall have shown up positive under amphetamines

Amphetamine and meth share some metabolites (actually, amphetamine is a minor metabolite of meth), so the amphetamine screen on the testing panel is actually somewhat general. Amphetamine is not methylated in vivo.

I'm wondering if focalin(dexmethylphenidate) can also show up as a methamphetamine or amphetamines.

Methylphenidate is structurally unrelated to amphetamine and will thus not show up as amp on tests.

ebola
 
Ebola? said:
Methylphenidate is structurally unrelated to amphetamine and will thus not show up as amp on tests

This is all true; I seem to recall methylphenidate having the tendency to cause false positives for cocaine, but I ay be confusing the similarities in their pharmacological methods of action.
 
This is all true; I seem to recall methylphenidate having the tendency to cause false positives for cocaine, but I ay be confusing the similarities in their pharmacological methods of action.

Cocaine and methylphenidate share almost no structural similarity whatsoever; they share similarities only in their mechanism of action (dopamine reuptake inhibition). Isn't testing talk sort of against the rules?
 
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Cocaine and methylphenidate share almost no structural similarity whatsoever; they share similarities only in their mechanism of action (dopamine reuptake inhibition). Isn't testing talk sort of against the rules?

It is, in and of itself. The question was regarding structural similarity - a topic which you aptly addressed.

Thanks, SpunkySkunk :)

~ Vaya
 
This is actually well within the 'normal' range.

ebola

That was a guestimate. I know it is within the "normal" but considering everyone is different as when I meet with my doctors they consider it to be low. I've taken my blood pressure while on Meth and that seems to be within the 'normal' range as well. It is quite peculiar
 
I use a heart rate monitor while I exercise to manage aerobic/aerobic while riding a bike. My "trained state" resting hr was at one point 55 bpm. My performance declines alongside my stats within a couple of days. I use the heart rate monitor to avoid damaging my heart while training for peak health. It has a up and a down range, avg hr etc.

My resting hr when I use my adderall is avg 80 bpm.

I personally use 250mg Country Life Chelated Magnesium ( oxide is shitty, and its the first ingredient on the label ) and 100mg Magnesium Carbonate 2x daily before and after I take the speed. I take 30mg Delsym brand pure DXM before and after I am done using speed. Its tough to distinguish bewtween what is right/working for you if you dont keep stats. Im comfortable keeping a Health Journal that I use daily.
Oh yea, my psyche gives me Clonodine/Trazadone/xanax to crash. It works. Just have to be careful about NOT building a tolerance to the Xanax.
And dont take any alcohol if you have taken any more than 75mg of DXM. You will have stroke like symptoms for a few days to a week.

Sourced from: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/16932-bioavailability-elemental-of-magnesium-types/

The effectiveness of a magnesium supplement is determined by its...
[1] amount of elemental magnesium in the compound (i.e., the general weight of magnesium to total chelate weight); AND
[2] bioavailability (i.e., amount that is absorbed in the intestines and ultimately available for biological activity in your cells and tissues)

So I'm trying to compile a list...

Magnesium Sulfate ---> Elemental Mag = 10%, Bioavailability = ?
Magnesium Chloride ---> Elemental Mag = 12%, Bioavailability = ?
Magnesium Oxide ---> Elemental Mag = 60%, Bioavailability = 4%
Magnesium Carbonate ---> Elemental Mag = 45%, Bioavailability = 30%
Magnesium Hydroxide ---> Elemental Mag = 42%, Bioavailability = ?

Magnesium Citrate ---> Elemental Mag = 16%, Bioavailability = 90%
Magnesium Lactate ---> Elemental Mag = 12%, Bioavailability = 99%
Magnesium Glycinate ---> Elemental Mag = 18%, Bioavailability = 80%
Magnesium Malate ---> Elemental Mag = 6.5%, Bioavailability = ?
Magnesium Taurate ---> Elemental Mag = 9%, Bioavailability = ?

Alot of those elemental numbers came from this government website so it's probably pretty accurate. But "bioavailability" is apparantly a new concept in the world of magnesium and actual numbers are harder to track down. Lots of websites said that Citrate had the highest levels, but I actually read that Lactate did, with Citrate following behind it. Then, because Malate and Taurate are also Chelates, they have high %'s too.

What threw me for a loop was on Relentless Improvement's website, for Ortho Bone, AOR's data sheet says the following: "But compared to other sources of the mineral, magnesium oxide has extremely low bioavailability (22.8% ) .... Magnesium citrate is certainly somewhat better, at 29.64% absorption, but it’s still far from the best magnesium you can choose. Much better absorption is available from other forms – especially fully-reacted magnesium aspartate, with a remarkable 41.7% bioavailability."

That really threw me for a loop. Every single site that has listed the bioavailability for oxide has said it is either 4% or below... I have no clue where this 22.8% is that AOR is listing is coming from. If it were that high, it would make Mag-Oxide pretty worthwhile, but we all know it's a worthless supplement even with an elemental of 60%... Also, that 29% for citrate is screwey too... Citrate has the highest or second highest bioavailability... If it were just one weird number from AOR, okay fine. But two really odd numbers makes me believe that AOR's facts are wrong. Anyway, I'm not here to call AOR into question because I love them, I'm just trying to get legit numbers for the rest of the above listed magnesium compounds (or correct any mistakes I have) so I can order the proper supplement.

Btw, what is "Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate"? Is that another name for Mag Citrate? I can't quite figure it out.


EDIT: So just for those non-math inclined people out there, this is how you calculate how much mag a pill has:

(mg powder in pill ) x (elemental % )/(100) x (bioavailability % )/100 = actual mag you are getting

Example: 500mg Mag Oxide
(500mg ) x (60% )/100 x (4% )/100 = 12g of magnesium


I am certain that No maufacturers list the elemental % for their products, so whatever, but read the conversation below for an idea of why it should be: sourced from that link above

Kind of a big difference eh? In my opinion, someone should sue the manufacturers for false advertising. Who the hell (Excuse my language) knows this crap?

In a perfect world, that would indeed be true; but the reality is, it's not. A simple way to demonstrate this is with bioavailability. Obviously it plays a big difference in the amount of magnesium that you are actually getting, but do you really think that the manufacturers are including it in their calculations? I have 500mg mag oxide here and they weigh 1.3g. 60% of 1.3g is 780mg. The bioavailability is only 4% or so, and that means the pill is only 31mg of magnesium once digested. So basically, if the supplement manufacturers are not being up front about the bioavailability, then we cannot assume they are being upfront about the elemental % either.
It's not that they aren't being upfront about bioavailability, they just aren't saying anything about it. That's not the same as lying. If they say their pill has 250mg of elemental magnesium and it doesn't contain that amount, that is lying, and could bring the FDA down on them. (For pharmaceuticals, and soon, I think, for supplements.) I trust the big name supplement makers not to get something as basic as that wrong. I don't like to deal with little rinky-dink outfits because I don't know if they have the resources to get anything right.

Most people don't visit this place, nor spend any time thinking about their vitamins. We are the exceptions, the 1%. Let's talk about the other 99%. If there was just 1 form of magnesium, fine; leave bioavailability off; no big deal. But in a pharmacy, they have tons of different types of magnesium. Not just oxide, but many others. Where am I going with this? Well...

Let's say I have a life-threatning illness that only magnesium can solve. The doctor tells me, you will live if you get around 500mg a day, but you will die if you don't. I go to the store, and pick out a bottle of 500mg magnesium oxide. Obviously I die, because I'm only getting ~20mg of magnesium if bioavailability is not factored in. Now here is the question: Who is my estate going to sue? I am a lawyer, and I can tell you right now, the answer is not clear. I want to hold the doctor liable, but I also feel that the manufacturer holds some blame too. I don't know, that's just what my gut says. So the common answer is to simply sue them both and then have them fight it out in court for liability.

Also, if you really want to get down and dirty with technicalities. The front of my bottle just says Magnesium 500mg. Nothing else, except for the logos and random marketing stuff. It's not until you flip it over and read the ingredients do you see "magnesium 500mg as magnesium oxide". If bioavailability didn't matter, then it shouldn't matter what kind it is and thus leaving it off the front of the label would be okay. However, because it plays such a big role, there should be an astric by the 500mg on the front of the bottle or something, and then below it, indicate that it's in oxide form or something to that effect.

Here is another example that would never happen, but it drives the point home. Say you buy a pack of gum. The front label says "Hubba-Bubba - Amazing Gum (7 sticks)", but when you open it up, you see how all the 7 sticks have been already chewed. You flip the package over on on the back it says "7 sticks - previously chewed". Are there 7 sticks in the package, yes, so they didn't technically lie. But don't you feel that in some way, the consumer was duped because he didn't get what he expected? Yes. While I cannot pinpoint with 99% accuracy where the consumer could sue the manufacturer for this, I'm virtually certain that given some time, I could find something.
 
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This is for the most part not the case. Stimulants appear to trigger nausea via some more direct, neural mechanism distinct from their cardiovascular side-effects. Indirect dopaminergic agonism looms large, as d2 agonists are quite reliable nauseating agents. But really, if experiencing hypertension so significant as to pose danger, the dosage of the stimulant is too high in the first place, so there won't be that much one can do at home to combat the hypertension directly.

ebola

I didn't know that, i thought it was mainly the gut 5HT that caused the nausea from stims and have never experienced nausea from dopamiergics except from that times i assumed it to be from the above 200 systole wich i can quite easily get, can have 180 from normal stress. But indeed amp got som serotonergic properites so sensitive individuals might be effected from that or it is the d2 as you said. I have succefully counteracted nausea from serotonergics with Nutmeg seeds, also a anticholinegic and contains week phenetylamines. Drawbacks might be that it is quite diuretic and longlasting but its natural and provides highly needed minerals and good antioxidant properties. It is also competitively MAO-B inhibiting, the extreme oxidator of monoamines in the harsh enviroment of the mitocondria where it produces wery reactive species. MAO inhibition also upregulate the antioxidant system by fooling the cells that there are more dangerous action than there actually is.

Im sruprised that deprenyl has not been mentioned, a irrevesible MAO-B inhibitor with strong neuroprotective properties and after regular use desensitize alpha-1 receptors blocking part of the stress on the vascular system. But one must be very carful about the dosage and start very low and gradually increase dosage as it will make things worse until desensitized. I never go above 5mg/week at which dosage it is perfectly combinable with stimulants after acclimatization.

What i consider most important to save the brain is to upregulate the antioxidant system, done by mao inhibitors, cordyceps (and some other shooms), Proanthocynides like Grape seed and Pine bark extract, Schisandra, Gotu Kola, Bacopa and Ashwaganda. The last three are greate natural sedatives that increases cognitive functions. These compounds are cheap if you buy them in bulk. I try to have as many of those i can afford, also try to drinking different kinds of Tea; I drink green, black, rooibos and a mixture of "evening herbs". Since different compounds affect different cells, tissue and systems i think a wide spread is best.

You also need the minerals for these antioxidant enzymes, high dosages of Zinc and some Copper, Manganese and Selenium. The last three sould not be consumed during high stress condition but rather after and before due to their pro oxidant effects. I belive Zinc is a stronger nmda antagonsit than manganese and could be used in dosages far far above 40 mg a day, if copper is supplemented. Oysters are very good food if you can afford it.

Curcumin is one of my best guess as defence against amp toxicity. Uridine/Cytidine, Omega-3 and lechitin are important nutritions for membranes and read the wiki about citicoline where cytidyne is converted to uridine that is the active component. citicoline increases dopamine receptor desity, restores dopamine levels and increases glutamate uptake reducing its toxicity, lechitin also contains inositol which is important for the serotonergic system. With the food we eat today we are quite mineral and methyl group deficient. Methylfolate, Methylcobalamine and Trimethylglycine/Sam-e provides methylgroups that are important for membrains and neurotransmitter syntesis.

Vitamine D is also neuroprotective and should be supplemented with atleast 4000 IU (EU upper tolerable) on days with inadequate UVB exposure, dont just get a partial agonistic D2 in RDI levels.

Autophagy upregulation removes damaged debris , Lithium paba and trehalose should do this.

Adequate intake of Thiols/Sulfur-compunds is needed for termination of reactive species, crosslinking with other things that can be excreted/autophagysized. Suicide anti-oxidants are kinda the only exogenous anti-oxidants that make sence since the capacity of our antioxidation system most often are rate limited by the reducing enzymes. Melatonin is a non sulfur example that has neuroprotective properties, supplement or avoid wavelengths shorter than 530nm in the evening/night. Garlic contains a lot of thiols.

Im not sure if cAMP and simmilar secondary messengers should be up or down regulated but im leaning against upregulation for increased transciption rate. Forskolin and sesamin raises while cannabis lowers.

I think souldle fibres are great for water absorbtion rate, making a slow releas gel in the gut.

And then there are Neurotrophic factors; increased by serotonin, Noopept and Lions Mane.
 
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What do you guys think about adrenegic antagonist like beta and alpha-1 antagonists?

And also what about the combination of reuptake inhibitors like methylphenidate and cocaine
 
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I personally use 250mg Country Life Chelated Magnesium ( oxide is shitty, and its the first ingrediant on the label ) and 100mg Magnesium Carbonate 2x daily before and after I take the speed. I take 30mg Delsym brand pure DXM before and after I am done using speed.

Do you think there are any difference in the passage of the BBB for magtein compaired to generic amino acids? Do you feel nmda antagonism?
 
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coccie said:
Im sruprised that deprenyl has not been mentioned, a irrevesible MAO-B inhibitor with strong neuroprotective properties and after regular use desensitize alpha-1 receptors blocking part of the stress on the vascular system. But one must be very carful about the dosage and start very low and gradually increase dosage as it will make things worse until desensitized. I never go above 5mg/week at which dosage it is perfectly combinable with stimulants after acclimatization.

I'll just jump in quick reply here (addressing more later), but I actually wrote an FAQ on this topic, found here:

(Please excuse the verbosity)

ebola
 
I have a hard time believing that you don't know how to write in vernacular dialect. Don't combine maois with stimulants; it should only be done under rare circumstances through a doctor; and if you think the net effect is one of neuroprotection you're wrong.
I only take mg because even adding in too many supplements leads to a convoluted effect so that you're doctor may not be able to tell what does what.
 
:? can you please post the right dosages of melatonin astaxanthin & probably other antioxidants. And scheduele of administration before ,during,after ingestion of speed, plus normal everyday scheduele(when not using speed). :) <3 peace ;)
 
:? can you please post the right dosages of melatonin astaxanthin & probably other antioxidants. And scheduele of administration before ,during,after ingestion of speed, plus normal everyday scheduele(when not using speed). :) <3 peace ;)

Is there clinical concession on these materials' use as they relate to the ab/use of stimulants?
 
Does Provigil (modafinil) also cause a positive result for Amp?? Thanks. Y'all seem so very knowledgeable here so I'm confident I'll get an accurate response. Truly appreciated.
 
Does Provigil (modafinil) also cause a positive result for Amp?? Thanks. Y'all seem so very knowledgeable here so I'm confident I'll get an accurate response. Truly appreciated.

Modafanil is not related to amphetamine structurally; the answer is no.

In the future, please be advised that we do not allow drug testing questions here at Bluelight.

Thanks,
Vaya
 
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