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We are living in hell: we just don't realise it.

I think the use of the Word Hell in the Christian sense evokes a state of absolute suffering, endless. The concept can exist with or without Christianity, it's just a borrowed word that has Christian roots.

From a certain perspective, absolute (but not endless) suffering is the lot of animals on earth. Most of the ways we suffer are evolved traits to ensure our survival. Think about physical pain; this is not so much a real, absolute thing, its a series of sensations that our nervous systems and brains evolved to experience, to enable our avoidance of stimuli that would harm/kill us. It makes sense, and yet as an inevitable function of a reality we do not choose (i.e. it is imposed upon us through the sheer fact that we exist) it entails a truly pointless sufferring, unless you believe that we exist for a reason. I happen to think this is random and meaningless and ends when we die and there is no other place or time for our personalised existence. In that sense, life is pointless, we are existing and compelled to escape pain and suffering through the very experience of these states. There is no greater reason for this. You suffer so you can learn to avoid suffering and live a longer life of procreation, and for no greater purpose.

Much of the macro life we see dies by being eaten, usually when still alive. If this doesn't happen, you get a long slow death due to starvation, though for some animals this may compell them to eat their young. Old animal are usually alone when they die, too. But, they have served their purpose if they procreated, and if they are eaten they have served a purpose too. The suffering along the way is utterly meaningless.

The worst thing IMO is, as a human, you understand that there is a way out, that all of us will inevitably take without fail. We have to live with an instinct that forces us, through pain, fear and suffering, to continue living at all costs but we know that at the end of the day, we will lose this fight. At least most of us won't experience our last few minutes in the jaws of a predator, we just experience an entire lifetime knowing that one day, we will not exist.

I love the natural world, but the more I observe it, the more I see it as a place of hellish, brutal suffering. There's no enlightenment amongst the likes of wild animals, there is just kill or be killed. I watched a David Attenborough show; they had filmed a snow leopard in the Himalaya's who needed to feed her three young. She was getting desperate, and sought out a larger prey to the normally juvenile animals she would kill and eat, and after killing this animal, had to drag a corpse the size of her body up a fucking mountain in a blizzard to prevent her and her young from starving. Her struggle was incredible- this act would probably be the hardest thing a human could imagine, and she had to be constantly worried about other predators attacking her and taking her food, or death by falling off the mountain, or freezing in the blizzard, all the while hoping her young hadn't been killed rendering her great battle even more futile. I felt like watching this was just watching a summary of the suffering replete in life on earth. It felt wrong to watch.

She got it back to her cubs, so they lived on to kill other young animals too.

I just cannot avoid holding this idea, that life is optional and that this suffering and our struggle does not have a conclusion that we will ever be able to experience. Our struggle ceases when we die. It is the definition of pointlessness.

This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.
 
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This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.

What I try to do is envision my two hands. In one, I hold this truth (that life is inherently full of horrendous suffering until we die and are removed from the cycle altogether). But in the other hand I hold all the beauty of the world: nature's incredible mind-blowing designs, music, human bonds, animal bonds, the simple cellular pleasure of being alive. Lately, with the whole human world turning to all the old fears and darkness, I find myself barely able to keep balance. But I do truly believe that balance, like happiness, is 90% choice. I would no more turn away from the hand that holds the horror than I would the hand that holds the beauty--they are both equally real to me, equally necessary.
 
This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.

You mention the pointlessness of the suffering and pain, but interestingly you didn't choose to extend that to your rightly justified observation that this place is little more than a churning slaughter house. I would posit that there is a point to all the slaughter, unfortunately it's nothing that grand or even motivating to us humans! Or perhaps there is a secondary purpose that involves our increased ascendancy towards ever greater complexity, but until we get word from talking shrubs or something divine it still appears to be little more than an endless slaughter.

What really got me was learning how the plant kingdom engages in this slaughter too, it happens so slow that we can't see it take place. I think at that moment it really hit home just how brutal this place is.

So unfortunately I can't rebuff your position. It is logical and born out of observational evidence. I do often wonder how many people actually grasp the simplicity but overwhelmingly total nature of the slaughterhouse, I have the impression many drift through life without giving it much consideration, distracted by culture and human games, only contemplating it when inevitably someone they love dies suddenly or they suffer serious health issues as most of us will.

All that on top of the madness of society with all its failings, our internal madness and insecurity of our own psychology.. that really does add up to a particular kind of hell.

In truth I find it difficult to stay motivated, driven on only by the implanted impulses and bait of future pleasure. Even dreams grate me now. My preference is that place between sleep and awake, where its quiet with no thought or drives. There is no heaven and hell there, just stillness.
 
This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.

I agree with the essential state of reality you propose. All life exists by consuming other life. Suffering exists, yes it does. My dad is suffering tremendously and is close to his death. But he also had many wonderful times in life that he was glad to have experienced. I think as a human, we have a greater capacity to both suffering (since we are aware of it, since we can have existential suffering) as well as to the positive life experiences. At times in my life I have experienced a huge amount of suffering, I have even wished to be dead for a pretty significant period of time (after being increasingly depressed for a long time), but I have also had intense moments and extended times of absolutely beautiful experiences that have made the suffering worth it. Whenever I've been depressed I felt like that was all life is, and whenever I have been in a really great place, I feel like that's all life is. Right now I'm in the middle, I'm not depressed but I'm not elated either, but I still get elated pretty often, and I still suffer sometimes. As a human, we are able to be aware of our state, and thus we are able to appreciate or fear it more.

Basically, the point of life is what we make it. We're here for a finite time, and if it makes us feel really happy and experience a lot of joy to do a particular thing with that time, that means a hell of a lot, because this time is all we've got. Just because the physical point of reality is to reproduce life, and it's a brutal world, doesn't invalidate the joys of living.
 
I do believe, from the perspectives of Christian archetypes, that the Earth is Lucifer's domain, or rather Lucifer is the currently ruling god of Earth. His god, and our higher God, is the God we want to believe has ultimate control, but why would such a righteous God leave this planet for Lucifer to have his way with? Stay tuned for the answer.
 
I don't think you can say it's an actual hell realm because some few folk have really pleasant lives. However if you are of a sensitive, empathic nature and you come to realize that you've been lied to about life from the get go you will realize to your horror there really is often mostly suffering in many or most lives. If you want to get into the detail on this I highly recommend this.
 
^ Hey cosmic, good to see you back--haven't seen you post in a while! Was wondering how things were with you?<3
 
What if we didn't have the concepts of innocence and guilt? Would we be living in heaven?
 
Hey herbavore, Things have improved somewhat. I can walk again so spend 2-4 hours a day in the mountains with my dogs and the bears. It helps my depression lots. Hope you are well.
 
What if we didn't have the concepts of innocence and guilt? Would we be living in heaven?

If we were like other animals we'd have no past or future tormenting us and no language to torture us so, we wouldn't be living in heaven but we would be living instinctually and that's a lot easier. The only depressed animal I've ever seen was attached to a human. Our disease rubs off on our slaves (pets and children).
 
Without having bitten the apple of knowledge as that story goes, yeah I can see us living more in harmony with the birds and the bees, but maybe that was never our destiny, and our current collective torment is just another awkward stage on the path to redemption.
 
I accept in advance the derogatory comments I'll get from this. I'm a hypocrite that has studied and tried to practice buddhism or eastern thought for decades. Life is dream but we can't realize that without practice. We live in Samsara and will continue to do so until we realize our inherently enlightened nature. We can exist in the following realms:

Gods realm,
Demon, Anti-god or Demi-god realm,
Human realm:called the manuṣya realm. Buddhism asserts that one is reborn in this realm with vastly different physical endowments and moral natures because of a being's past karma. A rebirth in this realm is considered as fortunate because it offers an opportunity to attain nirvana and end the Saṃsāra cycle.
Animal realm
Hungry Ghosts realm
Hell realm

I've read that as humans we can exist in any of these realms in our lifetime, maybe several during the course of a single day. Don't you feel like your living in hell sometimes but in other realms at other times? I didn't edit out the explanation of the human realm because it's the most auspicious.

I understand it will be dismissed as bullshit by many. BTW Cosmic Trigger you're right on the money about our (dogs in my case) they immediately pick up on the vibes when my wife and I are arguing. They won't eat and they appear to be saddened.
 
Hey herbavore, Things have improved somewhat. I can walk again so spend 2-4 hours a day in the mountains with my dogs and the bears. It helps my depression lots. Hope you are well.

That's great man, I'm really happy for you. :) I think a lot of us were wondering where you were and hoping things were okay so I'm happy to see you post again.

I gotta say that being in nature helps me so much... it does profound things for my mental state. Fortunately I live amongst incredible nature so I spend a lot of time in it, even my house is in the middle of a wooded mountainside. I consider myself a very happy person, but when I spend much time away from it I start to get anxious and eventually depressed.
 
That's great man, I'm really happy for you. :) I think a lot of us were wondering where you were and hoping things were okay so I'm happy to see you post again.

I gotta say that being in nature helps me so much... it does profound things for my mental state. Fortunately I live amongst incredible nature so I spend a lot of time in it, even my house is in the middle of a wooded mountainside. I consider myself a very happy person, but when I spend much time away from it I start to get anxious and eventually depressed.

I convinced there's no doubt. I notice how nice it is until the heat stroke starts to kick in Fla. We took a road trip to Colorado and even though the altitude overwhelmed me for a sec I think it has improved my mental outlook. I think we need to be indoors sometimes. I tend to be a little on the lazy side. I'm glad to see Cosmic Trigger back because some of his comments to what I had mentioned once would not register with anyone too much younger than me.
 
Um not that I have much reason to say anything, but like, this earth is Gods kingdom and will never end.

Hell is definitely real, its not for those who simply sin, but Oppose the son/creator, go out of their way to stand against him
 
Gods kingdom is pretty fucking awful if this is it.
 
Hell is definitely real, its not for those who simply sin, but Oppose the son/creator, go out of their way to stand against him

Definitely? Do you have any definitive proof? Who is the son/creator? Do you mean sun?
 
I accept in advance the derogatory comments I'll get from this. I'm a hypocrite that has studied and tried to practice buddhism or eastern thought for decades. Life is dream but we can't realize that without practice. We live in Samsara and will continue to do so until we realize our inherently enlightened nature. We can exist in the following realms:

Gods realm,
Demon, Anti-god or Demi-god realm,
Human realm:called the manuṣya realm. Buddhism asserts that one is reborn in this realm with vastly different physical endowments and moral natures because of a being's past karma. A rebirth in this realm is considered as fortunate because it offers an opportunity to attain nirvana and end the Saṃsāra cycle.
Animal realm
Hungry Ghosts realm
Hell realm

I've read that as humans we can exist in any of these realms in our lifetime, maybe several during the course of a single day. Don't you feel like your living in hell sometimes but in other realms at other times? I didn't edit out the explanation of the human realm because it's the most auspicious.

I understand it will be dismissed as bullshit by many. BTW Cosmic Trigger you're right on the money about our (dogs in my case) they immediately pick up on the vibes when my wife and I are arguing. They won't eat and they appear to be saddened.

without explanation im going to say this guy is on to something.


universe is predominantly karma, will, and imagination.

ha, my "ode to Schopenhauer" the world as karma, will, perception, and imagination"'

okay, its a little more complicated than that, but "karma, will, perception, and imagination" is a reasonable foundation..
 
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